MotoGP: 2015 Round 13 - Gran Premio TIM di San Marino (SPOILERS)

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

AntG said:
The cheering of Lorenzo's crash was disgusting, made even worse by the fact that the circuit is named after a young motorcycle racer killed in a racing crash.

The custard cum-shot crew are not known for their love of the sport. It's all about their brainless devotion to the cult of personality.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

Keshav said:
The cult of personality.

Ah the irony.

Talpa · Sep 13, 2015

all a little bit convenient to call this a Rossi masterclass of strategy. I actually think he made the wrong choice twice yesterday-but it was a complete lottery as Smith and Redding said. Marc didn't want to admit it but he was very lucky.

Smith was ridiculously lucky-staying out there on slicks? If it had rained even for a couple of minutes more he would have been forced to come in for the wets, and then have to come in again for the slicks-absolute luck.

And Redding, well he crashed and still made the podium! As he said he had nothing to lose so he jumped on the slicks as he had to change bikes anyway-absolutely ridiculous luck-once again if the rain persisted a little longer Redding was farcked.

And Marc was slower than Rossi in the wet and in the dry, and again if the rain came back even for a minute or two-He was farcked as well.

Rossi farcked up, he thought it would rain again and it didn't-who the farck could tell?

Jorge farcked up by crashing and following Rossi around like a little lost dog (that couldn't keep up) for too long. He is now rattled

Ducati farcked up completely, couldn't even get their highest grid placed riders bike started! I mean WHAT THE FARCK!

But the Biggest FARCK UP is from Dorna with this flag to flag rubbish and Bridgestone not providing an intermediate tyre option to aid this flag to flag rubbish!

Rossi fans were FARCKED booing Jorges crash-but who cares nobody likes him anyway!

All in all-PRETTY FARCKED round. Somewhat entertaining though......

HEISMAN · Sep 13, 2015

I heard clamoring from the crowd when Lorenzo crashed, but I wouldn't call that cheering exactly. Even at home I began yelling that Lorenzo fell because the gravity of the situation is huge.

I didn't get to watch the podium ceremony so I didn't get to hear the jeering from the crowd. You could chalk it up to nationalism, but still doesn't make it right. I expect more from my fellow Italians.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

I agree with much of what you said Talps, except I think VRs experience and ability to out fox his rivals is part of today's narrative. I also take slight exception to the booing part. However, I can give the fans a pass in the sense that they were caught up in the moment.

Again, my issue is the artificially inflated VR record and the design of title odds in his favor. I have already said, when the pressure piles on, its advantage Rossi. From before today's race started, the pressure was on Jlo, where even a win was not enough and disaster was looming like a dark cloud...before a drop of rain dropped. But when the odds are already so small, as is a 1:3 chance, then it pretty much becomes a title to win by attrition. I know you and I differ in our takes regarding tires. And for the benefit of anybody else reading this post (except Kesh, who said he only sees a series of onomatopoeia in my posts) lets be clear, you and I subscribe to "conspiracy"'theory when it comes to this year's tires. You believe Dornas iteration is favorable to.Lorenzo, while I believe they were intended to be favorable to Valentino. I think even you and I can agree that the tires then favored M1 riders (we just disagree which one). I invite you to answer my challenge post my friend.

Talpa · Sep 13, 2015

Jumkie said:
Rossi didn't make it rain nor make Lorenzo crash. For me the issue has always been that VRs few rivals (by design) not only have to compete on the track but also mitigate whatever effects from rules changes or tire "development" materialize during the season. Only 3 men were ever going to win the championship this year, is that a "conspiracy"? The only people who employ this retort are resorting to a lazy response (apart from those incapable of defending their position). There were 4 contending machines, but we know Pedro made the odds 1:3. We virtually know this. And so VR by design had a 1:3 chance. While everyone has been preoccupied blaming the RCV for Marquez's meltdown little to no attention has been highlighted on this year's tires until recently. The tire development had the effect of the pendulum swing from the Marc/RCV domination to a Jlo/VR--M1 domination. The only "conspiracy" part of this statement is my assertion that it was by design. The non conspiracy part of that statement is the reality that it has indeed had this undeniable effect on the three contenders. The swing becomes more discernible and pronounced if you look back at VR's poor race win record the last two years. Did the tires have an effect? Yes. Fact. So is this all "conspiracy"? No.

Gamblers take bets on worse odds. This was a sure bet for Dorna, 1:3 is practically a toss up. And when you factor in unforseen factors, like we've had the last two rounds, it makes the bet a non risk no brainer. I'd even say, Dorna were happy just to have VR on the podiums, which when u have a 4 bike championship is virtually guaranteed. What part of this last statement is "conspiracy"? Answer: my assertion that that it was by design, ie Dorna brokered. Lets examine then the "conspiracy" part of the above.

Here is the challenge #1: Can someone dispute the odds for a title win this year was not virtually a 1:3 odds for Marquez, Lorenzo, and Rossi? Are these odds a type of "conspiracy"? Explain.

Challenge #2: Can someone tell me the odds of VR winning a title when he was at Ducati? How did those odds change when he was signed back with Yamaha? Are these odds a type of "conspiracy"? Explain.

Challenge#3: Have the tires this year had an adverse effect on the RCVs while seemingly favorable to M1s? Is this reality a conspiracy? Explain.

Challenge #4: Kropo is on record here saying Dorna were involved in subsidizing Valentino's return to Yamaha. Fact. Is this a "conspiracy"? Explain.

My answers:

#1: Not conspiracy, its simply a statement of odds. The same type of statistics a legit odds make would produce. Simple math.

#2: Not conspiracy, even the odds makers (and a casual observer of GP) could calculate the odds for VR on a Ducati were unrealistic long shots, while at Yamaha those odds became virtually 1:3. Simple math.

#3: Not conspiracy. Though the variable of the tire causing favorable or detrimental conditions for the factory bikes can be disputed, the reality of the outcomes are real and undeniable. The beneficiaries of the tire this year have been factory M1 riders.

#4: Not conspiracy, because this is not an 'opinion' by Kropo, which can be disputed, but rather a fact. Backed up by other verifiable sources.

Strangely enough you sort of have a point here Jums, however with that one in three chance there is something you are missing-the other two variables. The likelihood of anyone else in the current field beating Jorge and Marc is for me far worse odds. I can't see Cal, Smith, Redding, Pol or any of them frankly even coming close if they had factory kit. Just another Colin or Spies.

And this is the bet Yamaha weren't willing to take. Rossi has outstanding speed, racecraft, rhythm, balls, experience, influence, marketing, fanbase and the now presiding aura of legend. Which all plays a huge part mentally for his competitors. Jorge is rattled-clearly, Marc is also rattled, the man is 36 years old! And he is odds on to win the motogp title for an 8th time against the toughest competition in recent memory. Yamaha doesn't give a .... who wins, as long as they win, and they are doing everything to ensure this. Do you think a factory Yamaha team with Jorge and lets say Pol or Smith would stand even a remote chance of beating Marc? Methinks not

Pedro has been outclassed again and yes as usual, not because he isn't still fantastically fast, but because the others have changed the game again. Dovi also admitted this too as the Ducati's fall further into the void of obscurity once again despite being a title threat up until Le Mans.

As for tires, well, here is where it gets interesting. I actually believe the rubber changed with the additional heat resistant layer to stop any chance of further embarrassment for the company in their final (thank FARCK!) year. I would say the result of this has only really helped Lorenzo, not so much Rossi-And I still believe their allocation is ...., I think the practice sessions at Misano were the second time this season I've seen anyone go out on both Hard front and rear options! What a waste of an option? And all of this predetermined at the start of the season means that yes, the factory riders have a huge advantage-but this is only due to the rule-as of course Bridgestone is not going to adjust anything mid-season, that would cost too much! Bring back the war! And get rid of the fuel and engine limit.

And if Hypothetically, the rubber was adjusted to suit Rossi more than any other rider, then it stands to reason that the previous rubber suited another rider more and surely then one could easily assume that the previous option was designed to suit another rider? Possibly Marc in 2014? Possibly Jorge in 2012-2013 (Certainly 2012). I think the inquisition should be aimed more at the Spanish.

Regardless this year is a classic, whether you believe it was contrived or not, most of us know that the majority of sport we watch is manipulated in some way shape or form-and lets face it manipulation doesn't stop the masses watching reality tv! The interest in this season, and particularly Rossi is almost unprecedented, and compared to the past 4-5 seasons you have to say its great for the sport and may hopefully help persuade Suzuki, Ducati and Aprilia to stay involved.

Mick D · Sep 13, 2015

Rossi's strategy did not seem to be a mind-.... nor a mistake. All he had to do this race was cover Jorge. Winning the race would have been nice but winning the season - much better. So simple then: stay out - go in the lap after Jorge and either finish one place behind him, or maybe catch him up again and finish one place in front. It was a no-lose gamble staying out.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

Thats an excellent take Talps. However, let's not sweep under the rug that Valentino rejected Yamaha in the same 'vain' as his Honda departure. This left a real sense of rancor, bitterness, and resentment at Yamaha. And who could blame them? After all they were providing VR with a championship contending machine and the money, only to be abandoned for the egotistical reason that Yamaha would dare to treat Lorenzo with the same opportunity to win a title. Criminal indeed. So... THE LEAGUE had to patch things up. Unless of course you can argue that Yamaha were in need of a title contending rider.

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

Here's the question, does Rossi have a chance to win any of the final 5 races?

Mick D · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Here's the question, does Rossi have a chance to win any of the final 5 races?

Yes.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Here's the question, does Rossi have a chance to win any of the final 5 races?

Yes, but he knows he doesn't have to, and he has known this since he took the lead early on in the season. Consider this, before the weather reared its ugly head, we knew that VR would end up on the podium at Misano, did we not? The subject of debate was who might win the race between Lorenzo or Marquez, as we had conceded a VR win was a longer shot. I believe VR knew the implications of this reality and the added pressure on Lorenzo, which predicatively (at least for me) could likely result in Jorge pressing. And in a way, some of us knew too, as this was a must win situation for Lorenzo, hence the antics and the gamesmanship.

The question is, can Marquez win the rest of the races with perhaps the exemption of Valencia? Yes, and its likely. The championship was sealed today, as VR can spend his time riding for the podium, not exactly a difficult task considering Pedrosa's record against Rossi.

Mick D · Sep 13, 2015

Respect to Loris Baz. Unlike Bradders ("I just stayed out too long on the slicks and so said WTF I might as well stay out here") or Redding ("I crashed so I can only take my other bike with slicks on"), Baz proactively made his own choices as to when to pit and he nailed it! The 'too big' kid has skills and I, for one, hope he survives the Forward Racing debacle and gets a ride next season. He deserves it - best open rider and second best rookie (and who knows how he would have gone on the Zookie or at Aspar if he had the chance...). Too tall my arse!!

Talpa · Sep 13, 2015

Jumkie said:
Thats an excellent take Talps. However, let's not sweep under the rug that Valentino rejected Yamaha in the same 'vain' as his Honda departure. This left a real sense of rancor, bitterness, and resentment at Yamaha. And who could blame them? After all they were providing VR with a championship contending machine and the money, only to be abandoned for the egotistical reason that Yamaha would dare to treat Lorenzo with the same opportunity to win a title. Criminal indeed. So... THE LEAGUE had to patch things up. Unless of course you can argue that Yamaha were in need of a title contending rider.

I don't think the departure from Yamaha was anywhere near as bad as the Honda exit in 2003, actually his letter to the M1 and the shirt/pantomime at Valencia in 2010 was a far cry from the 'ball and chain' routine. And lets never forget, Rossi provided Yamaha with 4 titles, .... loads of wins and podiums up to that point, redemption from the decade of defeat at the hands of Honda, Doohan, Suzuki and even himself and god knows how many motorcycle sales. So there were more than the simple factors at play you describe above.

At that point Yamaha certainly were not as Jorge had just won in 2012, on the flip side they were probably a little too comfortable with Jorge and not expecting the rookie year that Marc produced. Therefore Rossi provided a nice 'prodigal son' story for them, marketing dream and the potential to have another real contender instead of a mid-packer-very little risk considering the gains and the lack of other contenders. And I think Lin Jarvis knows Jorge's fragility all too well.

I think the pay cut thing to add to Jorge's salary instead of it supposedly going into development was the moment and the real reason Rossi jumped. Not too mention Masao's retirement. However I would not underestimate the powers of manipulation from Forcada, Wilco and Jorge-they managed to turn Yamaha towards their side quite quickly despite the record that Rossi and Burgess had. And in 2013 the team manager was Wilco-which I always found very strange as he would always only mention Jorge in the press releases and of course favoritism towards Jorge would have been absurd, once Merigalli came in in 2014, the pendulum swung back quite heavily. Perhaps Spies's misfortune at was not all that it seemed......

Imagine if Jeremy Burgess had have been the team manager of Yamaha? This place would have gone into meltdown! So IMO if you are going to throw rocks at Rossi, lets take a look at Jorge, Marc and Dani too. Lets take a look at the rookie rule being removed for Marc-Stoner's very, very early retirement.
Lets take a look at the 2012 tyre switch and weight problems for Honda and Stoner, which somehow benefited Jorge massively. Lets take a look at the Pedrocycle in 2007, the entire 800cc format for Pedro, the Bridgestone switch mid-season for Pedro in 2008.

Lets take a look at the passport riders like Cal Crutchlow dancing around bouncing back and fourth between factory and sat teams without even looking like winning a race in 5 seasons, never won a world superbike title either, didn't even do his time at Ducati despite knowing the horrendous flaws of the machine when he went in.

And lets not mention the rider promoted to the 2003 Repsol Honda factory team without even setting foot in the Motogp paddock. Lots of allowances have been made over the years for many riders, some riders have gone on to prove their worth, whilst others haven't.

Talpa · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Here's the question, does Rossi have a chance to win any of the final 5 races?

Of course, does Lorenzo? What if it rains at every race?

In the dry, Phillip Island, Sepang and Motegi could certainly favor Rossi. Aragon is unknown due to last years inclement weather and Valencia is not particularly good for either of them.

One could argue Marc could beat them both at all of the remaining rounds, and he's only 40 points behind Jorge-anymore DNF's from JL could see a loss of second place too.

With all of this talk of luck at Misano, we must remember how lucky Jorge was a Silverstone-when he potentially could have finished 7th-8th.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

Mick D said:
Rossi's strategy did not seem to be a mind-.... nor a mistake. All he had to do this race was cover Jorge. Winning the race would have been nice but winning the season - much better. So simple then: stay out - go in the lap after Jorge and either finish one place behind him, or maybe catch him up again and finish one place in front. It was a no-lose gamble staying out.

This was basically how I saw it. You don't have a problem with calling it Rossi's master strategy though right? The simplicity of it doesn't negate the outfoxing nature of his strategy regardless. I don't think its a negative thing to say that Rossi out foxed Lorenzo. The crash was 100% Lorenzo's fault. However, have you heard people say "he pressured him from behind" or "he pressured him by leading"? I think Rossi staying out was a calculated decision. Lorenzo watching Rossi's to decide when to pit was also a calculated decision. In this case I think Rossi's strategy was to finish behind Lorenzo and gamble finishing ahead. Lorenzo's strategy was to pit with Rossi knowing that he was better head to head on a dry track. Thing is, Lorenzo's pit knew better and asked him to come in, that doesn't mean Lorenzo's strategy was flawed but his gamble was knowing he was better head to head in the dry. Unfortunately he threw it away in a moment of emotion not knowing where he might end up once he pitted and Rossi had stayed out.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

Talpa said:
I don't think the departure from Yamaha was anywhere near as bad as the Honda exit in 2003, actually his letter to the M1 and the shirt/pantomime at Valencia in 2010 was a far cry from the 'ball and chain' routine. And lets never forget, Rossi provided Yamaha with 4 titles, .... loads of wins and podiums up to that point, redemption from the decade of defeat at the hands of Honda, Doohan, Suzuki and even himself and god knows how many motorcycle sales. So there were more than the simple factors at play you describe above.

At that point Yamaha certainly were not as Jorge had just won in 2012, on the flip side they were probably a little too comfortable with Jorge and not expecting the rookie year that Marc produced. Therefore Rossi provided a nice 'prodigal son' story for them, marketing dream and the potential to have another real contender instead of a mid-packer-very little risk considering the gains and the lack of other contenders. And I think Lin Jarvis knows Jorge's fragility all too well.

I think the pay cut thing to add to Jorge's salary instead of it supposedly going into development was the moment and the real reason Rossi jumped. Not too mention Masao's retirement. However I would not underestimate the powers of manipulation from Forcada, Wilco and Jorge-they managed to turn Yamaha towards their side quite quickly despite the record that Rossi and Burgess had. And in 2013 the team manager was Wilco-which I always found very strange as he would always only mention Jorge in the press releases and of course favoritism towards Jorge would have been absurd, once Merigalli came in in 2014, the pendulum swung back quite heavily. Perhaps Spies's misfortune at was not all that it seemed......

Imagine if Jeremy Burgess had have been the team manager of Yamaha? This place would have gone into meltdown! So IMO if you are going to throw rocks at Rossi, lets take a look at Jorge, Marc and Dani too. Lets take a look at the rookie rule being removed for Marc-Stoner's very, very early retirement.
Lets take a look at the 2012 tyre switch and weight problems for Honda and Stoner, which somehow benefited Jorge massively. Lets take a look at the Pedrocycle in 2007, the entire 800cc format for Pedro, the Bridgestone switch mid-season for Pedro in 2008.

Lets take a look at the passport riders like Cal Crutchlow dancing around bouncing back and fourth between factory and sat teams without even looking like winning a race in 5 seasons, never won a world superbike title either, didn't even do his time at Ducati despite knowing the horrendous flaws of the machine when he went in.

And lets not mention the rider promoted to the 2003 Repsol Honda factory team without even setting foot in the Motogp paddock. Lots of allowances have been made over the years for many riders, some riders have gone on to prove their worth, whilst others haven't.

Well my friend, that's a nice revision, make no mistake, Yamaha were not happy, otherwise Dorna would not have needed to step in, however, I don't see how you are advancing your point by saying Yamaha had favored Lorenzo when Valentino left. And Rossi won plenty of races and titles for Honda too, yet they weren't being pressured by the League to take him back, because they didn't have to.

And regarding the other list of riders, which of those was a seat brokered by Dorna and subsidized? .....uhm, None.

And regarding promoting an AMA champ, uhm, because that has not been done with any historical significance right? Pedrosa had plenty of time in a "GP" paddock, hell GP titles, didn't quite mean dildo.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

Jumkie said:
Ah the irony.

View attachment 11186

Dear Trump-kie

For a person who continually extols the virtues of being generous, fair minded, honest and cosmopolitan you take great pains to prove to all that you have a bottomless capacity to expose yourself as venal, parochial, bigoted and narrow minded.

You should start wearing a baseball cap emblazoned with words
"Make Powersllde Great Again".

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

Kesh do you ever shut the .... up?

I still haven't got that apology from you for lying.

For a guy who sure is concerned about what everyone else is doing, you seem to pay little attention to what you do.

The Gospel According to Kesh, "Thou Shalt Not Notice Me Being Thy Hypocrite."

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2015

Krishna, I have never extolled any virtues, quite the opposite, Ive often acknowledged I fall miserably short of being a decent person. I know my plethora of shortcomings. That's why ive never tried to nanny the forum, because for one I dont have any business trying to set a lofty standard recognizing my own failings, and two, I don't have any responsibly to censure anybody here. Apparently you do.

Haha, is that whats on the hat issued to the mods? You could have saved some embroidery and just stiched "Snitch".

Back on topic. The winglets might have helped Lorenzo today, because he definitely needed wings.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Kesh do you ever shut the .... up?

I still haven't got that apology from you for lying.

For a guy who sure is concerned about what everyone else is doing, you seem to pay little attention to what you do.

The Gospel According to Kesh, "Thou Shalt Not Notice Me Being Thy Hypocrite."

Does anyone here ever "shut up"? It's a forum dude. Where people come to talk. Or is it that it's only talk when the discussion is going your way?
Give the insults a rest and talk about racing and I'll do the same.

Oh...and stop asking for an apology for something that never happened. Instead ask yourself; what would I gain by lying? Every statement I've made is right here on the site. Why would I deny something that was right here in black and white if in fact I actually said it? If I was imprecise in my language - and you grabbed onto that to hyperbolize and misrepresent it as "lying" I naturally conclude that A. I overestimated your intellectual capacity or B. you're a sore loser. I made it very clear - early on in our dialog that I held no enmity toward you and had no wish to insult you. It was all merely a difference of opinion. There's a lot of things you say that I disagree with - but that never made me feel like you were not fun or interesting to argue with, until you started flinging insults and insisting you'd been in someway injured - when in truth - you understood perfectly well the meaning of what I said. As long as you hold onto this myth of "The Lie" there's no prospect of you and I having an intelligent dialog. By now you must realize I don't respond to the whole Spanish Inquisition dynamic. And I am wholly unmoved by the sophomoric taunts and fabrications from the peanut gallery. You have nothing to gain by continuing a line of inquiry which just leads back to the same old unsatisfying results. A reasonable person would move on.

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