MotoGP: 2015 Round 13 - Gran Premio TIM di San Marino (SPOILERS)

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

AntG said:
Everything's a bloody conspiracy.

It's not a conspiracy if it's true.

Dorna has millions of reasons for why they would order Bridgestone to alter tire compounds to suit a particular Italian.

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Exactly. He competely misjudged the changing conditions. Or, he liked too much the fact that he was faster than his rivals on the wet, and went into wishful thinking mode.

Strange that Lorenzo followed him, rather than following the very explicit indications from his garage! Anyway eventually he did the right thing one lap before Rossi and would have arrived in front of him without the crash. Which was his mistake anyway.

The Ducatis also were completely wrong in their strategy. Petrucci again was the best Ducati rider...

In all this, Marquez was just perfect. He let the Yamahas lead in the tricky conditions and then promptly followed the indications from his team. He looke like the most experienced of the three today, keeping perfecty cool, probably helped by the fact that he has nothing to lose.

Smith was brave and Redding made the best of his circumstances, but their position on the podium speaks volumes about the huge mistakes made by 4 factory riders...

I wouldn't say MM looked like the most experienced of the three, I think he was simply gifted a win by VR who was more intent on wrecking his teammate's race altogether. There's no one more astute in grand prix racing than Valentino Rossi, and he isn't subject to doing things on a whim. While we'll never know what exactly his thought process was behind it, rest assured, it was done for a significant reason.

With more time to think about it, no one would knowingly throw away a 1st place victory by staying out on rain tires when the conditions were clearly no longer right for them. It almost had the air of someone who seems to know what the outcome of the world championship will be in spite of there being 5 remaining races.

I'm incredulous to the belief by some that he simply "got it wrong".

If I knew in the moment he should get into the pits, 3 laps before he did, and I'm not a MotoGP rider, surely someone with his prodigious intelligence would given the years of experience he has, no?

Even had the race been in the dry, I feel he would have been in position to possibly win. I stated in the Silverstone topic that I've been increasingly getting the impression he is toying with both J-Lo and MM. J-Lo will say all the right things coming out of today, but I think that was a devastating bit of theater, especially after the whole thing with Rossi being on the racing line in Q yesterday. This is one more thing for him to consider, and he very much had tunnel vision when it came to Rossi.

nomad · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
I wouldn't say MM looked like the most experienced of the three, I think he was simply gifted a win by VR who was more intent on wrecking his teammate's race altogether. There's no one more astute in grand prix racing than Valentino Rossi, and he isn't subject to doing things on a whim. While we'll never know what exactly his thought process was behind it, rest assured, it was done for a significant reason.

With more time to think about it, no one would knowingly throw away a 1st place victory by staying out on rain tires when the conditions were clearly no longer right for them. It almost had the air of someone who seems to know what the outcome of the world championship will be in spite of there being 5 remaining races.

I'm incredulous to the belief by some that he simply "got it wrong".

If I knew in the moment he should get into the pits, 3 laps before he did, and I'm not a MotoGP rider, surely someone with his prodigious intelligence would given the years of experience he has, no?

Even had the race been in the dry, I feel he would have been in position to possibly win. I stated in the Silverstone topic that I've been increasingly getting the impression he is toying with both J-Lo and MM. J-Lo will say all the right things coming out of today, but I think that was a devastating bit of theater, especially after the whole thing with Rossi being on the racing line in Q yesterday. This is one more thing for him to consider, and he very much had tunnel vision when it came to Rossi.

Yeah, Rossi knew that staying out would force Lorenzo into pitting before him and then making a mistake. Because not only is he the GOAT he can also predict the future

HEISMAN · Sep 13, 2015

I think Rossi was hoping for the rain to return by staying out longer than necessary. That's what only makes sense to me since there were still gray skies out. If it had started raining again, Rossi would have never needed to pit. He bet wrong and lost the race.

In the end, it still played into his favor.

If Rossi would have pitted when Lorenzo's board had indicated to come in for a bike swap, then the outcome of the race would have been totally different; most likely no Lorenzo crash and less of a point gap.

nomad · Sep 13, 2015

HEISMAN said:
I think Rossi was hoping for the rain to return by staying out longer than necessary. That's what only makes sense to me since there were still gray skies out. If it had started raining again, Rossi would have never needed to pit. He bet wrong and lost the race.

In the end, it still played into his favor.

If Rossi would have pitted when Lorenzo's board had indicated to come in for a bike swap, then the outcome of the race would have been totally different; most likely no Lorenzo crash and less of a point gap.

In his interview he says that there was rain on his visor so he thought it was going to rain again. Shame he wasn't on the podium but glad he gained more points on Lorenzo.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

Jumkie said:
USS Snitch no doubt.

Petrucci must have been screaming in his helmet for rain. Btw when was the last time we had a flag to flag where the riders switched twice?

Yes another one of many things I that now feel the need to confess. Not only did I kill Manatee, but I'm responsible for the explosion at Fukishima, slashed Simoncelli's helmet strap right before his last race, I ran off Dave Emmet, and a multitude of my favorite PS members, I was responsible for Benghazi, I was DB Cooper, Jack The Ripper was my great grandad, I destroyed Rog's domestic bliss, I buried Jimmy Hoffa in my backyard, Amelia Earhart is lying in the bottom of my swimming pool, I kidnapped all those girls that Boko Haram are wrongfully blamed for and I was the guy on The Grassy Knoll. I also issued the super secret order to create special tires for Rossi. The list goes on. I can't tell you how exhausting it is being an evil mastermind. I work long days I tell you; long days.

ratdeal · Sep 13, 2015

There's no way this wasn't a calculation on VR's part. I believe he would have stayed out for as long as is optimal as per the usual strategy for a wet/dry change. However when JL doggedly chased him in the hope of matching his strategy, it was likely JL would either crash pushing too hard to keep up in the wet, or lose points due to a late switch. I also believe that this was all strategized on the fly. Marc was astute enough to pit in a timely fashion and it seems that lap after lap with JL chasing VR, he obviously saw a myriad of different outcomes with a successful one for JL becoming a slimmer proposition as the laps passed. JL compromised his own race believing that Rossi was trying to win. In my opinion VR sensed this and deliberated ...... his own race to limit Jorge's chances. There is absolutely no way that VR would have stayed out that long due to his own lack of foresight. He is too experienced for that.

Whether or not VR compromised his own podium chances is irrevelant. He saw an opportunity to roll the dice in conditions that had wildly varying and unpredictable outcomes and managed to control the most important variable to the championship, Jorge.

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

nomad said:
Yeah, Rossi knew that staying out would force Lorenzo into pitting before him and then making a mistake. Because not only is he the GOAT he can also predict the future

Influencing the future, rather than predicting it does the job quite well. He had time to see the pit board telling J-Lo to come in, and most guys would have pitted after seeing that because it was the smart play. Instead he got J-Lo to follow him around a bit longer.

ratdeal · Sep 13, 2015

ratdeal said:
There's no way this wasn't a calculation on VR's part. I believe he would have stayed out for as long as is optimal as per the usual strategy for a wet/dry change. However when JL doggedly chased him in the hope of matching his strategy, it was likely JL would either crash pushing too hard to keep up in the wet, or lose points due to a late switch. I also believe that this was all strategized on the fly. Marc was astute enough to pit in a timely fashion and it seems that lap after lap with JL chasing VR, he obviously saw a myriad of different outcomes with a successful one for JL becoming a slimmer proposition as the laps passed. JL compromised his own race believing that Rossi was trying to win. In my opinion VR sensed this and deliberated ...... his own race to limit Jorge's chances. There is absolutely no way that VR would have stayed out that long due to his own lack of foresight. He is too experienced for that.

Whether or not VR compromised his own podium chances is irrevelant. He saw an opportunity to roll the dice in conditions that had wildly varying and unpredictable outcomes and managed to control the most important variable to the championship, Jorge.

Equally as likely however, is I'm full of ...., Rossi actually judged the conditions incorrectly and Jorge was thinking along the same lines but second guessed himself, pulled in and tryed to limit the damage....

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

ratdeal said:
There's no way this wasn't a calculation on VR's part. I believe he would have stayed out for as long as is optimal as per the usual strategy for a wet/dry change. However when JL doggedly chased him in the hope of matching his strategy, it was likely JL would either crash pushing too hard to keep up in the wet, or lose points due to a late switch. I also believe that this was all strategized on the fly. Marc was astute enough to pit in a timely fashion and it seems that lap after lap with JL chasing VR, he obviously saw a myriad of different outcomes with a successful one for JL becoming a slimmer proposition as the laps passed. JL compromised his own race believing that Rossi was trying to win. In my opinion VR sensed this and deliberated ...... his own race to limit Jorge's chances. There is absolutely no way that VR would have stayed out that long due to his own lack of foresight. He is too experienced for that.

Whether or not VR compromised his own podium chances is irrevelant. He saw an opportunity to roll the dice in conditions that had wildly varying and unpredictable outcomes and managed to control the most important variable to the championship, Jorge.

Well said rat.

I think without question, Rossi is the smartest rider in MotoGP currently, and there is no way he didn't consider all possible outcomes. Sure he ruined his chances of winning, but if you have a Yamaha 1-2 when the checkered flag waves, you are still presented with the same basic problem if you are VR - J-Lo is still close to you in the title. His work certainly isn't going to get any easier with the upcoming slate of circuits. Aragon and Motegi more specifically. I don't give a .... what anyone says, the amount of pressure now on J-Lo is immense because he cannot afford to not win at least 3 of the final races. His HJC helmet cost him two grands prix already. He cost himself another one today. You generally don't win championships when you blow three races.

ratdeal · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Well said rat.

I think without question, Rossi is the smartest rider in MotoGP currently, and there is no way he didn't consider all possible outcomes. Sure he ruined his chances of winning, but if you have a Yamaha 1-2 when the checkered flag waves, you are still presented with the same basic problem if you are VR - J-Lo is still close to you in the title. His work certainly isn't going to get any easier with the upcoming slate of circuits. Aragon and Motegi more specifically. I don't give a .... what anyone says, the amount of pressure now on J-Lo is immense because he cannot afford to not win at least 3 of the final races. His HJC helmet cost him two grands prix already. He cost himself another one today. You generally don't win championships when you blow three races.

I'm not one for probabilities and percentages, but I do know this. If the gap was maintained or JL's chances to minimise the deficit compromised, its one less race that JL can potentially dominate. VR as a result is one race closer to his 10th championship.

VR threw away 1 potential victory, but has massively improved his chances at another potential championship victory.

Regardless of all conjecture, these are the facts whether he deliberately influenced the outcome or not.

I for one believe this will go down as the race that decided the championship.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Influencing the future, rather than predicting it does the job quite well. He had time to see the pit board telling J-Lo to come in, and most guys would have pitted after seeing that because it was the smart play. Instead he got J-Lo to follow him around a bit longer.

You don't think it's just possible that Rossi was hoping/praying that the rain would get heavier? Racers often base a decision on a hunch; tho not always a good one.

Remember the god awful ....-up by Stoner choosing to stay out on rain tires? Just a really bad decision.

nomad · Sep 13, 2015

Keshav said:
You don't think it's just possible that Rossi was hoping/praying that the rain would get heavier? Racers often base a decision on a hunch; tho not always a good one.

Remember the god awful ....-up by Stoner choosing to stay out on rain tires? Just a really bad decision.

Exactly. Rossi said in his interview that there was rain on his visor so he thought it was going to get worse. Simple mistake. People on here seem to think he's a wizard and orchestrated the entire thing so Lorenzo would crash. Idiotic doesn't quite say it.

ratdeal · Sep 13, 2015

Keshav said:
You don't think it's just possible that Rossi was hoping/praying that the rain would get heavier? Racers often base a decision on a hunch; tho not always a good one.

Remember the god awful ....-up by Stoner choosing to stay out on rain tires? Just a really bad decision.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying Kesh, that the only tyre you should be on at any given time is the one appropriate for the track conditions. The line was dry. Think Prost vs Senna at Donnington.

A pit board saying to change bikes is gospel regardless of the spittle hitting your visor. After all the team's highly paid meteorologist is on the pitwall, not the bike.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

ratdeal said:
I for one believe this will go down as the race that decided the championship.

Still FIVE races to go. A lot can change. Lorenzo didn't fall and break his leg. He lost a race. I've said it before, Lorenzo won't give up til the last checkered flag drops. He's no quitter. Remember Catalunya 2006? Anything can happen.

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

ratdeal said:
I'm sure you've heard the old saying Kesh, that the only tyre you should be on at any given time is the one appropriate for the track conditions. The line was dry. Think Prost vs Senna at Donnington.

A pit board saying to change bikes is gospel regardless of the spittle hitting your visor. After all the team's highly paid meteorologist is on the pitwall, not the bike.

Agree... but sometimes riders think they know better.... and they're wrong. What to do?

Keshav · Sep 13, 2015

nomad said:
Exactly. Rossi said in his interview that there was rain on his visor so he thought it was going to get worse. Simple mistake. People on here seem to think he's a wizard and orchestrated the entire thing so Lorenzo would crash. Idiotic doesn't quite say it.

This site is actually sponsored by the world's largest manufacturer of tinfoil hats. This forum is a major branch of it's R&D division.

HEISMAN · Sep 13, 2015

nomad said:
Exactly. Rossi said in his interview that there was rain on his visor so he thought it was going to get worse. Simple mistake. People on here seem to think he's a wizard and orchestrated the entire thing so Lorenzo would crash. Idiotic doesn't quite say it.

This confirms my theory. Thank you

JPSLotus · Sep 13, 2015

nomad said:
Exactly. Rossi said in his interview that there was rain on his visor so he thought it was going to get worse. Simple mistake. People on here seem to think he's a wizard and orchestrated the entire thing so Lorenzo would crash. Idiotic doesn't quite say it.

Nomad, I don't even like Rossi lol.

I did state that there is no one more astute in grand prix racing than him.

The rain on his visor bit I saw as well, but it's a convenient excuse. Do you really expect him to come out and talk about how he wrecked J-Lo's race? That would bring down a guaranteed media .... storm that I don't think he feels like dealing with, and could inadvertently spur J-Lo on or cause bigger issues inside the team.

Christ, it's not like this is a guy without a history of ....... with other riders and then claiming something else because it's more convenient.

ratdeal · Sep 13, 2015

nomad said:
Idiotic doesn't quite say it.

Actually I think you'll find that I'm offering one possible perspective of the events today. The idea is that we all discuss what transpired and all the possible potential permutations that did not come to fruition, after the event. I feel my perspective is well reasoned and expressed with clarity, with clear justifications to support my opinions.

Warm regards,

.....

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