MotoGP: 2015 Round 16 - Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

JPSLotus said:

Hey Jums, you know quite a bit about MotoGP and it's history, what are your thoughts?

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Your thoughts on age of WC?

JPSLotus said:

I think Doohan is being a nice guy now, and if he said he believed he was better than Rossi, it would create a media shitstorm, and he's not a guy who exactly was known for his love of the media. I think he's just being politically correct, as opposed to Nigel Mansell who recently said he could match Lewis Hamilton's laptimes in the 2015 Mercedes W06 F1 car in spite of having last raced in F1 in 1995.

I do not believe for one second Valentino is better than either Doohan or Agostini....well perhaps Agostini. But I would disagree about Doohan since we've got far more good quality footage of Doohan in his prime to look at for reference. I'd argue he had just as much will and motivation as Rossi...if not more. What he did in coming back from that horrific crash in Assen, and going on to win 5 straight world championships ranks as a monumental achievement. He was facing amputation of his leg which would have ended his career, and instead he recovers, and eventually a couple of years later wins the title which he would have won in 1992 had things gone differently...then reels off another 4 titles. Who knows what might have been had he stuck around for the full duration of the 1999 season.

Sure the engineers and MM are capable of ....... up the Honda regardless, but they've been on a good run since 2011, and then suddenly to drop in performance during the first half at a time when the rules are relatively stable? Seems odd to me.

That aside, Rossi was done after the 2009 season. He hasn't won a world title in nearly 6 years, though he is on the cusp of doing so now. Casey Stoner who is retired has won a world title more recently than VR....and the thing is, VR --to contrary opinions-- is not an alien in spite of those hands of his. Winning a world title 6 years after one wouldn't in itself be outrageous if we are talking the age of 30 or even 31, because then that would put the last one at age 24 or 25. But when the last title came at 30, and then to be in the running at 36? Peculiar.

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Mick's statement was a while ago and before the Ducati adventure, probably in 2010; I don't think Valentino's status was much in dispute after the 7th title in 2009 and a ready explanation existed for him not winning the 2010 title.

Mick was also fairly specific if I recall about how Valentino had exceeded him, ie by maintaining both his health and motivation for so long. Sure Mick could have and perhaps should have been going for an 8th title in 1999 and the injury that year might have stopped a 6th successive title that year. Then again, if he had retained the motivation and not got injured he might have been capable of a title at age 36.

Jumkie said:

Your thoughts on age of WC?

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Anything I've said regarding age and the like lol.

If VR could really be considered better than Doohan (has more accomplishments than Mick but that's not the only thing).

michaelm said:

Mick's statement was a while ago and before the Ducati adventure, probably in 2010; I don't think Valentino's status was much in dispute after the 7th title in 2009 and a ready explanation existed for him not winning the 2010 title.

Mick was also fairly specific if I recall about how Valentino had exceeded him, ie by maintaining both his health and motivation for so long. Sure Mick could have and perhaps should have been going for an 8th title in 2009 and the injury that year might have stopped a 6th successive title that year. Then again, if he had retained the motivation and not got injured he might have been capable of a title at age 36.

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But couldn't VR's health also be attributed to a number of advances in rider protection that did not exist in Doohan's time?

I think it's less impressive when you factor in the race gear advancements in recent times compared to how little of it there was 20-25 years ago.

JPSLotus said:

As I said, my theory for MM's horrific first half, right now is that the tires were not the same as what Honda designed the bike for. They expected the 2015 tires to perform in a certain manner, and I believe a last minute alteration was made, which put the RCV in MM's hands at a distinct disadvantage. Certainly MM didn't help matters further by crashing out of races through unforced errors.

But VR goes from a guy who might win a race or two a year at best, to a guy with 4 race wins and leading the championship at a time when he isn't getting any younger? lol

Seems odd to me, especially since no rider has ever done such a thing. Sure it's been attributed to his "will" and "motivation" but there have been plenty of people who never lost that will and motivation, however time had other ideas in mind.

The oldest world champion in a top tier race series was the great Juan Manuel Fangio who won his final F1 championship at the age of 46 in 1957.

Oldest MotoGP world champion was in the first season of the championship with Leslie Graham who won at 37 years old in 1949.

Such feats accomplished at later ages haven't been repeated in nearly 60 years in one series, and 66 years in the other. It simply doesn't happen anymore. Hell even NASCAR's oldest champion was Bobby Allison at 45 in 1983, over 30 years gone. I think CART may have been Emerson Fittipaldi at the age of 43 in 1989.

Call me skeptical about VR's sudden finding of the fountain of youth. There's nothing in the data to support a world title bid at this stage of a grand prix motorcycle racing career. A victory isn't outrageous, potentially winning the championship is since even Agostini and Doohan were done at 33.

1949 they were racing on these bikes...

In 2015 they are racing on these...

Considering the massive speed differentials involved and lean angles....

I smell .........

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You know it's not just the bikes that have improved over the decades. Safety of tracks and better gear allow riders to walk away from crashes that would have cost riders half a season of recovery time. Fitness training has evolved in leaps and bounds. So have nutritional supplements and things like human growth hormones. And physical rehabilitation has also come out of the dark ages. Look at guys like Checa, Bayliss and Biaggi kicking the ass of riders much younger than themselves. Even if you're one of the those who speak of the earlier competition being less equal, you would agree that Rossi is exceptional by any standards. Almost all sane race fans agree that Stoner was really one of the great riders of the century and Rossi (prior to the Ducati debacle) gave Stoner stiff competition more than any other rider during the "Stoner Era". Also considering how few injuries and how few crashes he's suffered - has to be figured in and given consideration to the whole equation.

JPSLotus said:

Anything I've said regarding age and the like lol.

If VR could really be considered better than Doohan (has more accomplishments than Mick but that's not the only thing).

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You made some very interesting points, it is peculiar, but being relatively "old" doesn't mean he still isn't competitive, for example take a look at Loris Capirossi or Max Biaggi as examples of "old" fast guys. The first years or decade of organized MotoGP were too divergent to the modern sport for me to make any significant correlation. The parity and sophistication of that day was extremely lopsided.

GP has produced fantastic talented skilled riders in the lower categories. But when I view the trajectory of Rossi in relation to his contemporaries, for this bias cynical spectator, the overwhelming advantages he was offered and maintained is stunning and resulted in artificially sustaining this notion of longevity. Its been a freakish anamoly, just consider that after his Ducati stint, normally a rider would been quietly been ushered into the sunset. We are conditioned to believe because other champs moved on to awful equipment that their performance declined from the intuitive notion of their results. Loris, Melandri, Edwards, Hayden all faded into the position abyss. But Rossi was bailed from a piss poor performance abyss at Ducati to a competitive machine. UNLIKE the normal trajectory of a rider who just came off two awful results years. But consider, where would Rossi be today had he gone the way of a CRT, Open Class machine? That he didn't with the help of the "impartial " league promoters for me is the pivotal point to examine.

Keshav said:

You know it's not just the bikes that have improved over the decades. Safety of tracks and better gear allow riders to walk away from crashes that would have cost riders half a season of recovery time. Fitness training has evolved in leaps and bounds. So have nutritional supplements and things like human growth hormones. And physical rehabilitation has also come out of the dark ages. Look at guys like Checa, Bayliss and Biaggi kicking the ass of riders much younger than themselves. Even if you're one of the those who speak of the earlier competition being less equal, you would agree that Rossi is exceptional by any standards. Almost all sane race fans agree that Stoner was really one of the great riders of the century and Rossi (prior to the Ducati debacle) gave Stoner stiff competition more than any other rider during the "Stoner Era". Also considering how few injuries and how few crashes he's suffered - has to be figured in and given consideration to the whole equation.

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Oh I don't disagree that fitness and training is vastly improved from Agostini's time, or even Doohan's time, but take MLB as an example. From the late 1990s to the late 2000's, fans were accustomed to seeing players hang around longer, and longer than they used to in the past. There's always been anomalies of players who made it to 40, or even early 40s, but it was seeming to become the norm 10 years ago rather than the exception. The decline of the the player in his mid to late 30s seemed to get pushed back. Very few make it to a certain age level in any sport...every sport has a particular age at which high level competitors can be expected to begin their decline. The extraordinary ones sometimes adapt and learn how to do with what they've got left in the tank; Greg Maddux.

Chemical assistance can do wonders to prolonging careers. I have no reason to believe doping doesn't go on in MotoGP. Does the series even test for such things as is? Kropo do you know anything? Are there guys suspected of doping?

Motorcycle racing is tough on the body, and my point is that while VR is certainly a high level talent, there simply is no one who has managed to make it to this age in MotoGP history in recent times...and be leading the championship with two grands prix to go. Health certainly factors in, but could VR be doping as well?

JPSLotus said:

Are there guys suspected of doping?

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Ask this guy...

Jumkie said:

You made some very interesting points, it is peculiar, but being relatively "old" doesn't mean he still isn't competitive, for example take a look at Loris Capirossi or Max Biaggi as examples of "old" fast guys. The first years or decade of organized MotoGP were too divergent to the modern sport for me to make any significant correlation. The parity and sophistication of that day was extremely lopsided.

GP has produced fantastic talented skilled riders in the lower categories. But when I view the trajectory of Rossi in relation to his contemporaries, for this bias cynical spectator, the overwhelming advantages he was offered and maintained is stunning and resulted in artificially sustaining this notion of longevity. Its been a freakish anamoly, just consider that after his Ducati stint, normally a rider would been quietly been ushered into the sunset. We are conditioned to believe because other champs moved on to awful equipment that their performance declined from the intuitive notion of their results. Loris, Melandri, Edwards, Hayden all faded into the position abyss. But Rossi was bailed from a piss poor performance abyss at Ducati to a competitive machine. UNLIKE the normal trajectory of a rider who just came off two awful results years. But consider, where would Rossi be today had he gone the way of a CRT, Open Class machine? That he didn't with the help of the "impartial " league promoters for me is the pivotal point to examine.

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I agree with that assessment regarding what would have happened to any other rider after the Ducati adventure. Most people would have been ushered off to some midfielder or even backmarker at that point, and they would have been content just to have the opportunity to line up on the grid period.

In fact I'll do you one interesting. Of all of the major race series that come to mind, the only participant who ever got close to experiencing a top flight ride at an advanced age for motor racing, was Mario Andretti. He made a guest appearance for Williams at Long Beach in early 1982, and it would have been his final F1 appearance were it not for Ferrari's misfortunes that year. After Gilles Villeneuve was killed at Circuit Zolder in May, Patrick Tambay stood in for him. But during the summer, championship points leader, Didier Pironi suffered a massive crash at Hockenheim in which he sustained severe leg injuries, ending his career. That left just Tambay in the sole 126C2 for the next few races till Ferrari brought in Mario Andretti at the age of 42 to race at Monza. He took pole position, and finished 3rd...would have won the race had it not been for a sticking throttle. His final F1 race would be the following race at Ceasar's Palace where he DNF'd due to a suspension failure. Point being, it was done as a stopgap to get Ferrari the constructor's title, which they won. But even at that they only asked him to do it for 2 races, there was no offer for 1983.

Such things are almost non-existent.

That is, till Valentino came along.

Certain drivers historically have been favored in race series, but none that come to mind have ever with the exception of perhaps Michael Schumacher, received such assistance from the administrators of the series. And what help Schumacher did get, did not cover the sort of time period that VR has been around for.

With the other riders you mentioned, while being competitive at times, overall, they no longer had the consistency required to be given a top machine. The factories aren't interested in wasting a seat on a guy who has already peaked, and doesn't sustain that peak.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Ask this guy...

View attachment 11358

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I should have rephrased, are there any top guys who've been suspected of it?

JPSLotus said:

Oh I don't disagree that fitness and training is vastly improved from Agostini's time, or even Doohan's time, but take MLB as an example. From the late 1990s to the late 2000's, fans were accustomed to seeing players hang around longer, and longer than they used to in the past. There's always been anomalies of players who made it to 40, or even early 40s, but it was seeming to become the norm 10 years ago rather than the exception. The decline of the the player in his mid to late 30s seemed to get pushed back. Very few make it to a certain age level in any sport...every sport has a particular age at which high level competitors can be expected to begin their decline. The extraordinary ones sometimes adapt and learn how to do with what they've got left in the tank; Greg Maddux.

Chemical assistance can do wonders to prolonging careers. I have no reason to believe doping doesn't go on in MotoGP. Does the series even test for such things as is? Kropo do you know anything? Are there guys suspected of doping?

Motorcycle racing is tough on the body, and my point is that while VR is certainly a high level talent, there simply is no one who has managed to make it to this age in MotoGP history in recent times...and be leading the championship with two grands prix to go. Health certainly factors in, but could VR be doping as well?

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Wondered about that for ages and amazed nobody here has ever posed the question. It seems like such an obvious question that I was almost too embarrassed to pose it. I know Nicky isn't doing that. He couldn't afford it what with all the money he spends on bad haircuts and funny sunglasses.

JPSLotus said:

I should have rephrased, are there any top guys who've been suspected of it?

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Well it cost him a World Championship.

Wasn't that due to Japanese herbal tea? That's what I heard.

#22 said:

Wasn't that due to Japanese herbal tea? That's what I heard.

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I suspect that was as genuine as Warnie's mum and the famous tablet

Ant West was also involved in a scandal concerning dopping. All his result from 2012 and 2013 were invalidated after a court decided against him.

#22 said:

Wasn't that due to Japanese herbal tea? That's what I heard.

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Either way it was complete ......... Unless doping produced some extra horsepower, it's retarded.

JPSLotus said:

Oh I don't disagree that fitness and training is vastly improved from Agostini's time, or even Doohan's time, but take MLB as an example. From the late 1990s to the late 2000's, fans were accustomed to seeing players hang around longer, and longer than they used to in the past. There's always been anomalies of players who made it to 40, or even early 40s, but it was seeming to become the norm 10 years ago rather than the exception. The decline of the the player in his mid to late 30s seemed to get pushed back. Very few make it to a certain age level in any sport...every sport has a particular age at which high level competitors can be expected to begin their decline. The extraordinary ones sometimes adapt and learn how to do with what they've got left in the tank; Greg Maddux.

Chemical assistance can do wonders to prolonging careers. I have no reason to believe doping doesn't go on in MotoGP. Does the series even test for such things as is? Kropo do you know anything? Are there guys suspected of doping?

Motorcycle racing is tough on the body, and my point is that while VR is certainly a high level talent, there simply is no one who has managed to make it to this age in MotoGP history in recent times...and be leading the championship with two grands prix to go. Health certainly factors in, but could VR be doping as well?

Click to expand...

Boxing is a great example of modern sports training and nutrition(and other things maybe) helping to prolong modern athletes careers even the fighters whose style is based heavily on physical assets and timing.

Jumkie said:

Either way it was complete ......... Unless doping produced some extra horsepower, it's retarded.

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How so Jum?
He was taking uppers, supposedly for weight, and definitely nothing to do with the other benefits they confer, nooooo.
(Mind you he was a fat ..... And even fattier now, jelly jowls)

Dr No said:

How so Jum?
He was taking uppers, supposedly for weight, and definitely nothing to do with the other benefits they confer, nooooo.
(Mind you he was a fat ..... And even fattier now, jelly jowls)

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I don't care if he took a meth ball before he rode, I just don't see it being any kind of benefit. Provided it doesn't endanger anyone but himself.

You'd be surprised at how much benefit you can get from drugs not necassarily considered 'performance enhancing'. Way back in the dark ages wnen I was playing high-level ice hockey goalie a big pipe bowl full of pure Afghani hash exactly 1 hour prior to game time allowed my body to react without interference from my brain! In essence it stopped me from over-thinking and just get on with stopping the puck.