MotoGP: 2016 Round 05 - Monster Energy Grand Prix de France (SPOILERS)

michaelm · May 9, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Never thought I can change your mind Jums. Not for a second.
In Latin there is a famous phrase that says "Cui prodest?" which means "to whose profit?" The question was considered relevant when dubious facts had to be interpreted. It is the same logic you use (or try to) when you want to demonstrate that all rules are made for the benefit or one rider... "Cui prodest? Rossis, semper!" ;-)

In this case, Lorenzo had too much to profit from Rossi's penalty to be a credible paladin of justice.

Again, he had a very legitimate claim that he should be 3 points closer to Rossi going to Valencia. If he actually was calling for Rossi to be disqualified, which I didn't hear of him doing, even if he was correct in doing so you have more of a point.

It probably wasn't the smartest thing he ever did regardless however, as I imagine it did not greatly please Yamaha.

J4rn0 · May 9, 2016

michaelm said:
Again, arithmetic, 7 point lead instead of 4.

4 point lead means if he wins at Valencia he wins, if he comes 2nd while finishing ahead of Rossi he wins. Hard to argue with that extremely basic arithmetic, probably explains why you are not doing so.

Your arithmetics forgets to calculate the possibility of some problem for Lorenzo at Valencia. Imagine anything went wrong and he arrived 6th, 7th? 10th? He surely calculated everything better than you, and (being worried) thought he should use all means to minimize risk and maximize his chances to win the title.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

CharlieParker said:
Cause they're spectators and supporters and, as such, inherently "cowards". But that's what watching any sport of any kind with any type of specific preference is all about. Nothing wrong with that. "sportsmanship" is NOT something people who WATCH have to deal with it.

Supporting a specific rider, with all that it can imply - booing, hating, wanting others to fail etc -, is not a way to bash a sport, but rather a way to come to love it. You learn to love football as a kid through the terrible suffering it gives you the idea that your hometown team might lose, not through a generic "love of the game".

"Love of the game" is just an intellectual consequence that might come later. As a western society, ever since greek tragedy and perhaps even before, the process of identification is one of the most basic and spread throughout all people, and that's the first step - one that leaves you some sort of imprinting - for anyone who approaches a visual spectacle of any kind.

Respectfully, i call ........ on the logic or accuracy of your post. Every sport has its unique culture. This type of disrespect has never been a part of MotoGP until Rossi started vilifying opponents and his fans went along with it, let's call it the Valentino's Ensnaring Narcissism Of Malice or VENOM Era for short!

In baseball, jeering the opposing team is part of the game, accepted, and frankly admired, as I've said before. People have been calling the opposing players bums for years. The other day I watched an English soccer match, the guy taking the corner kick was subjected to opposing fans yelling all manner of insults to distract him. It was funny and I was very amused, because it reminds me of some of the fantastic creative insults people say at the 'ballpark'. I've watched every single race, all categories, season reviews, documentaries, etc. of MotoGP since it was on black and white film, this bogus logic of spectators openly voicing disrespect because they support one rider over the other is not true whatsoever! It is a new thing, and it is the affect of one man who has employed it as part of his warfare tactic, VENOM.

moto vudu · May 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Kropo retweeted this.

Video proof of the fans cheering the Marquez/Dovizioso crash.

https://twitter.com/FranMolinaDJ/status/729612297862287360

Unreal.

Unreal? You're the guy who is on record on this forum saying it was "too bad" that Dovi's leg wasn't broken when Pedrosa's bike hit him at COTA so that Stoner could be called up as a replacement. That's UNREAL.

J4rn0 · May 9, 2016

michaelm said:
Again, he had a very legitimate claim that he should be 3 points closer to Rossi going to Valencia. If he actually was calling for Rossi to be disqualified, which I didn't hear him of him doing, even if he was correct in doing so you have more of a point.

It probably wasn't the smartest thing he ever did regardless however, as I imagine it did not greatly please Yamaha.

There you have it. And you bet Yamaha didn't like it.

michaelm · May 9, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Your arithmetics forgets to calculate the possibility of some problem for Lorenzo at Valencia. Imagine anything went wrong and he arrived 6th, 7th? 10th? He surely calculated everything better than you, and (being worried) thought he should use all means to minimize risk and maximize his chances to win the title.

See my subsequent post immediately prior to this one of yours. I can argue that all of this including the conspiracy theory at PI, rumoured discussions with other riders that only JL should be allowed to race him late season prior to PI, the desperation at Sepang leading to the bizarre move, and the appeal to CAS against what was probably the lightest possible penalty was because VR didn't want a straight fight against Lorenzo for the title at Valencia, hardly the most auspicious of tracks for him. I don't think there was any avenue for Rossi to be penalised 3 points rather than 16 points or the grid penalty, but that would have been the best outcome imo.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

MigsAngel said:
I now wonder how long it is before MM and JLo have a falling out...as MM goes backward in points and JLo goes pulls away with more and more.....then the partnership will come to an end real fast....

Like last year when Marquez congratulated Lorenzo? That kind of falling out? Miguel, are you perhaps projecting Rossi's modus operandi on other riders? No everyone who beats you becomes the object of Rossi's hate fatwa buddy.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

CharlieParker said:
On a side note, as sad as it sounds, Iannone & Dovi need to get their .... together and at least grow one pair of balls in two. Other times there were some excuses, especially for Dovi, yesterday was just a complete failure and a disgrace from two riders who are giving aching proof of not being able to cope with any kind of pressure, falling like dominoes one after the other. If I was Dall'Igna I'd just tell them "don't worry babes, none of you two are riding with us next year", no matter if it was true or not. Good news are for Jorge, though. If he was riding the GP16 already, I think he'd have already won at least one race and be a very close second in the championship.

Ah yes, babies for crashing, like say Lorenzo, Rossi, and Marquez? Each have crashed this year under pressure. There were 13 finishers at Le Mans, Redding was the only non-baby because his DNF was a mechanical? Like....oh yeah Dovi's busted water pump.

I think your attention should be directed at Michelin.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

michaelm said:
It probably wasn't the smartest thing he ever did regardless however, as I imagine it did not greatly please Yamaha.

It didn't please 'Yamaha' because Lin Jarvis placed Rossi's feelings over that of honor, decency, and fairness that transcends sport. I'd like to know in what circumstances does putting an innocent man in immediate danger trump a starting grid position penalty?

Lorenzo's claim was to uphold the light sanction Rossi received, Rossi's claim was to withdraw the light sanction he received. Yamaha's Lin Jarvis position sided with Rossi. In what universe is this the RIGHT thing to do? Answer : MotoGP & Team Yamaha.

CharlieParker · May 9, 2016

Oh come on man, you are mentioning 3 riders who had no more than one DNF each as opposed to 3 for Iannone and 3, practically 4, for Dovizioso.

Michelin or not, the least both of them should have done after all the crap of the previous races was to finish the race, possibly fighting for the podium, since they could. I agree in 90% of Dovi's DNFs he was absolutely blameless, yesterday he should have just finished the ....... race.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

CharlieParker said:
Oh come on man, you are mentioning 3 riders who had no more than one DNF each as opposed to 3 for Iannone and 3, practically 4, for Dovizioso.

Michelin or not, the least both of them should have done after all the crap of the previous races was to finish the race, possibly fighting for the podium, since they could. I agree in 90% of Dovi's DNFs he was absolutely blameless, yesterday he should have just finished the ....... race.

Fair enough, you're right, all the riders should finish the race. I'm sure you'll agree that once a rider realizes he has the pace to fight for a win or podium, the balance to take risk overpowers the presence of mind to be careful to finish. Iannone did at COTA because of an acute heightened awareness to do so after the disaster of Argentina. Every high profile rider that has DNFed thus far has done so under this exact scenario.

Iannone Qatar podium /win
Lorenzo Argentina hurry up for podium
Viñalez Argentina podium
Iannone Argentina podium
Rossi COTA hurry up for podium
Pedrosa COTA podium
Marquez Le Mans podium
Iannone Le Mans podium/win
Dovizioso Le Mans podium

In their defense, almost to a man, each cited the unpredictability or characteristics of the Michelin front. (Except Iannone at Qatar, Pedrosa at COTA).

tps7c · May 9, 2016

Jumkie said:
Like last year when Marquez congratulated Lorenzo? That kind of falling out? Miguel, are you perhaps projecting Rossi's modus operandi on other riders? No everyone who beats you becomes the object of Rossi's hate fatwa buddy.

Yes, but last year Marquez was basically out of the championship. This year, he's very much in it. If Lorenzo does indeed pull away, I wouldn't be surprised if Murder Marc rears his head again.

JPSLotus · May 9, 2016

moto vudu said:
Unreal? You're the guy who is on record on this forum saying it was "too bad" that Dovi's leg wasn't broken when Pedrosa's bike hit him at COTA so that Stoner could be called up as a replacement. That's UNREAL.

I said it wouldn't have been the worst thing since Stoner would have likely been the replacement as it would have been a similar situation to 2015's scenario where Pedrosa was out for a medical reason.

Certainly the "too bad" wasn't the right choice of words there, as I intended it in reference to seeing Stoner on a bike during a grand prix weekend. But I admit I should have finished off the post without adding that, as it was unnecessary.

I'm more than man enough to admit a mea culpa there...something I haven't seen many of the Rossi defenders, who have actively tried to rationalize a justification for engaging in actions that resulted in another rider crashing. Correct me if I am wrong because I didn't go back to get the exact words, but was it you said, MM was at fault for the crash because he turned into Rossi? A general sentiment that has been echoed by quite a few posters here.

JPSLotus · May 9, 2016

MigsAngel said:
I will take you at your word...though given your levels of hate for Rossi......it is surprising....

I would rather see Rossi finish a race, and hopefully finish far down in points list than to crash out because him crashing out is a opportunity for a built in excuse (from him and his fanbase) about something else being the cause for the crash. Granted there's always going to be an excuse, but it becomes a lot more vapid when the full race distance was completed.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

tps7c said:
Yes, but last year Marquez was basically out of the championship. This year, he's very much in it. If Lorenzo does indeed pull away, I wouldn't be surprised if Murder Marc rears his head again.

I really believe Marquez has made a profound change in his approach after last year's experience. He said this at the awards banquet. He has repeated it, and there is evidence on the track he is sticking to it. I don't think his crash at Le Mans was him backsliding to the old Murder Mac. Dovizioso, who is known for being prudent, suffered the exact fate as Marquez, which he put up to the "unpredictability of the Michelin." That is a quote.

But we shall see.

MigsAngel · May 9, 2016

tps7c said:
Yes, but last year Marquez was basically out of the championship. This year, he's very much in it. If Lorenzo does indeed pull away, I wouldn't be surprised if Murder Marc rears his head again.

That my thinking exactly....the red spanish mist will descend over his eyes and he will be gunning to beat both Rossi and Lorenzo.....more like 2013 Jerez MM vs JLo than 2015 Valencia MM vs JLo

MigsAngel · May 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I would rather see Rossi finish a race, and hopefully finish far down in points list than to crash out because him crashing out is a opportunity for a built in excuse (from him and his fanbase) about something else being the cause for the crash. Granted there's always going to be an excuse, but it becomes a lot more vapid when the full race distance was completed.

Well as you and several others have been saying...the Michelins are crap (not scottish) and so crashes may be expected...

I personally think now that MM and Ducati failed that Michelin will be under even more pressure to find a universal set of tyres....

Did you reak Kropos article pointing out that a third of field crashed out last year at Le Mans on Bridgestones as well...? Perhaps Michelins' home track surface is crap, and its not all down to just tyres.......

JPSLotus · May 9, 2016

MigsAngel said:
That my thinking exactly....the red spanish mist will descend over his eyes and he will be gunning to beat both Rossi and Lorenzo.....more like 2013 Jerez MM vs JLo than 2015 Valencia MM vs JLo

Incredibly unlikely since he changed his approach in the second half of last season, and has been committed to going for the points finish than crashing out of the race trying to fight or maintain an unsustainable position. Right now everyone is thinking the title has shifted to a Yamaha rider winning the title, but MM did something yesterday that shows he is committed to riding smart. He got back on the RCV in spite of the damage, and brought the bike home to score some points...and the several points he picked up yesterday could be the difference maker down the stretch.

While he is on the most difficult bike to ride, he has already won two races on the bike. If Honda figures out a way to reliably get that power down to the rear so he can get better acceleration, that would give him enough out of the RCV to win the title. He's proved to be remarkably adept at riding around the current acceleration issues to keep himself near the front of the grid, so just imagine if Honda can improve the power delivery? MM knows all he needs are the engineers to improve the ECU programming in order for him to be contending seriously on the stop-go circuits.

baturro · May 9, 2016

Dr No said:
Death is the Afternoon is certainly an interesting book...but for that .... to still be going on 80 years later is just crap.

So are gunfights on Main Street USA, but that's a daily occurrence.

Different cultures have absurd customs. The culture looking in from afar will usually think the others is screwed up.

Jumkie · May 9, 2016

baturro said:
So are gunfights on Main Street USA, but that's a daily occurrence.

Different cultures have absurd customs. The culture looking in from afar will usually think the others is screwed up.

Bro, are you making a mild case in favor of "bullfighting"? Because us looking from afar think it's screwed up? Perhaps we are being culturally ignorant or not being culturally sensitive to animals being tortured to death?

The gunfights on the streets of this country are not being celebrated, are they? In the sixties in this country, gay people were criminals, declared mentally ill by the American psychiatric association, the authority on mental illness, the proper treatment was electric shock therapy or incarceration. "Civil" society has condoned some awful ...., but little by little we are supposed to become more civil. Granted, we still got a long way to go, women are treated like crap in many societies. However, for a supposed modern society like Spain to subject magnificent beasts to be tortured to death to cheering crowds is utterly screwed up. I've been to a "bullfight" in Mexico City, an export of Spain's culture, and I must say, it was a sickening sight. It has no place in modern society, nor does training animals to fight to the death as in dog fighting or rooster fighting. It is a ...... aspect of the cultures that openly allow and celebrate the awful practice.

MotoGP: 2016 Round 05 - Monster Energy Grand Prix de France (SPOILERS)

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