Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España 2017

Theo said:

One fact that is not mentioned is that regardless of what fuel your vehicle uses they all fail when it comes to "real world" emissions. The problem is that tests undertaken in a controlled environment do not reflect issues such as traffic jams, idling at traffic lights etc. Everyone is picking on diesels as VW broke the law. IMO thats what has to be looked at and not just penalising diesel cars.
There are far more lorries, buses/coaches, ships and airplanes that pump out far more particulates than all the world's cars combined.

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How would you conduct such "real world" tests, such that they are less able to be gamed? Tests need to be repeatable so that comparisons are valid. That's why, though many manufacturers are gaming the system, VW were completely ignoring it. Super dodgy fuckers
I suggest that the test cycles need to better reflect actual use, with more realistic acceleration profiles and higher speeds.

Dr No said:

A common strategy. Secondary air injection/smog pump.

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Have they changed testing criteria to capture this practice or is it still allowed these days?

AJV80 said:

Have they changed testing criteria to capture this practice or is it still allowed these days?

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I believe even back in the 80s emissions were measued as xx g/km. (It's been 20 years since I had anything to do with that stuff.)
So adding air as a dilution tactic isn't going to work. It's to try to ensure full burn-off of anything that escapes down the exhaust. As the issue with cars is tailpipe emissions, I think it's legit, and still used. But the regulatory clamp down on emissions means much more focus is placed on good combustion, leaner mixes, etc so less emphasis/dependency on pumping air into the exhaust.

Edit to add: Thinking about it a bit further; cats are now placed very close to the exhaust port (rather than halfway under the car) in the interest of getting them hot quickly, makes me wonder where they would inject?
post-cat? wonder what is left to oxidise back there?

Keshav said:

Laterly - four more manufacturers. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

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It's funny, we had a memo at work when news broke to explicitly reinforce that the manufacturer I worked for didn't have any emaission cheating software.

Theo said:

One fact that is not mentioned is that regardless of what fuel your vehicle uses they all fail when it comes to "real world" emissions. The problem is that tests undertaken in a controlled environment do not reflect issues such as traffic jams, idling at traffic lights etc. Everyone is picking on diesels as VW broke the law. IMO thats what has to be looked at and not just penalising diesel cars.
There are far more lorries, buses/coaches, ships and airplanes that pump out far more particulates than all the world's cars combined.

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Exactly. Without going into pages and pages of detail, many car manufacturers have, for years, been making cars that meet test requirements rather than overall emissions figures. Some of the problem is in many cases, the regulations become increasingly restrictive to the point that manufacturers cannot meet them and still get any decent engine performance. The other problem is, certainly in Europe, the Diesel was hailed as the be all and end all, and suddenly the VW emissions scandal has brought it starkly to for fiore that it is not. All the public transport in London such as buses and taxis were subsidised heavily to go diesel under this very belief, and now they are scrambling to get all the public oil burners off the streets.

With regards to your final statement, it's very true. However, taxing private motorists in the name of the environment is an extremely easy revenue earner met with little resistance.

AJV80 said:

A work colleague who is a mechanical engineer used to do the emissions testing for various cars manufactured in Australia when he graduated from Uni. He told me how in the 80's Holden met the emissions requirements by running an air pump that injected fresh air into the vehicles exhaust system to dilute the exhuast gases and bring them down to a level that met requirements. Makes VW sound like Greenpeace.

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Dr No said:

A common strategy. Secondary air injection/smog pump.

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Smog pumps and air injection are, as you say, a technology of the past. Now it's evolved to DPF's, EGR valves and generally improved combustion techniques including pilot and post injection.

#22 said:

It's funny, we had a memo at work when news broke to explicitly reinforce that the manufacturer I worked for didn't have any emaission cheating software.



Exactly. Without going into pages and pages of detail, many car manufacturers have, for years, been making cars that meet test requirements rather than overall emissions figures. Some of the problem is in many cases, the regulations become increasingly restrictive to the point that manufacturers cannot meet them and still get any decent engine performance. The other problem is, certainly in Europe, the Diesel was hailed as the be all and end all, and suddenly the VW emissions scandal has brought it starkly to for fiore that it is not. All the public transport in London such as buses and taxis were subsidised heavily to go diesel under this very belief, and now they are scrambling to get all the public oil burners off the streets.

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Absolutely. The emissions standards and things such as quoted fuel economy are not consistent with the cars being driveable in a normal fashion.

#22 said:

Now it's evolved to DPF's, EGR valves and generally improved combustion techniques including pilot and post injection.

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Irony is they invariably clog up.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Irony is they invariably clog up.

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I can't tell you how infuriating it is to get a dpf regen when you're nearly home or on the way to work. I've actually solved the problem by doing the 2 miles to work in 2nd gear thus keeping the revs high and the exhaust nice and hot. I'd get the thing removed but 1 it's illegal and 2 it would invalidate the warranty.

We have gone from Motogp to DPF emissions lol[emoji23]. Talk about off topic


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Adnan said:

We have gone from Motogp to DPF emissions lol[emoji23]. Talk about off topic


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I think that's the way every thread on every forum goes!

danski said:

I can't tell you how infuriating it is to get a dpf regen when you're nearly home or on the way to work. I've actually solved the problem by doing the 2 miles to work in 2nd gear thus keeping the revs high and the exhaust nice and hot. I'd get the thing removed but 1 it's illegal and 2 it would invalidate the warranty.

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I feel you pain DB. A further .... off is the waste gate coking up and jamming on every turbo diesel I've owned and the ECU lurches into service mode.

Adnan said:

We have gone from Motogp to DPF emissions lol[emoji23]. Talk about off topic


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You obviously missed all the bits in between. I defy you to read the entire thread.

That's what makes this forum so inimitable.

danski said:

I think that's the way every thread on every forum goes!

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Hardly reprehensible this long after the race.

Dr No said:

How would you conduct such "real world" tests, such that they are less able to be gamed? Tests need to be repeatable so that comparisons are valid. That's why, though many manufacturers are gaming the system, VW were completely ignoring it. Super dodgy fuckers
I suggest that the test cycles need to better reflect actual use, with more realistic acceleration profiles and higher speeds.

Click to expand...

Not knowing how the US undertakes vehicle tests but here in the UK it should be an hour long test (yes some garages cheat). I'd suggest that equipment can be fitted to cars/vans/lorries-trucks temporarily and then its taken out on the road, this would give you a far better understanding of emissions than the current setup.

#22 said:

It's funny, we had a memo at work when news broke to explicitly reinforce that the manufacturer I worked for didn't have any emaission cheating software.



Exactly. Without going into pages and pages of detail, many car manufacturers have, for years, been making cars that meet test requirements rather than overall emissions figures. Some of the problem is in many cases, the regulations become increasingly restrictive to the point that manufacturers cannot meet them and still get any decent engine performance. The other problem is, certainly in Europe, the Diesel was hailed as the be all and end all, and suddenly the VW emissions scandal has brought it starkly to for fiore that it is not. All the public transport in London such as buses and taxis were subsidised heavily to go diesel under this very belief, and now they are scrambling to get all the public oil burners off the streets.

With regards to your final statement, it's very true. However, taxing private motorists in the name of the environment is an extremely easy revenue earner met with little resistance.

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The new buses in London that are coming up are hybrids, but they still fail as the average speed in London now is somewhere around 8mph and with all the stop-start they still stink and chuck out muck like an old oil burner.

Private road users have always been the preferred option when it comes to clobbering anyone. :furious:

Arrabbiata1 said:

I feel you pain DB. A further .... off is the waste gate coking up and jamming on every turbo diesel I've owned and the ECU lurches into service mode.







You obviously missed all the bits in between. I defy you to read the entire thread.



That's what makes this forum so inimitable.

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Trust me I've been responding and reading the whole thread


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Adnan said:

Trust me I've been responding and reading the whole thread


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Hey do you mind not getting off topic ( with all your talk of non-topical posts!) We are talking about diesels here !

I have a great little diesel.

BarryMachine said:

Hey do you mind not getting off topic ( with all your talk of non-topical posts!) We are talking about diesels here !



I have a great little diesel.

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I have Mercedes diesel which funny enough I have been sent a letter about a recall about an ignition fault


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Adnan said:

I have Mercedes diesel which funny enough I have been sent a letter about a recall about an ignition fault


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Welcome to moto ....this place .... lol

Arrabbiata1 said:

I feel you pain DB. A further .... off is the waste gate coking up and jamming on every turbo diesel I've owned and the ECU lurches into service mode.

That's what makes this forum so inimitable.

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I didn't know that. My Jetta ran great for lots of miles. I didn't really want to sell it back to VW - except I hit a massive pot hole on the FDR a few months ago and it damaged the front end, just enough to create a mild vibration in the front that while not dangerous, was annoying as ..... I know it sounds weird to some people, but I hate breaking in a new car, because the off-gassing (new car smell) gives me migraines. I ended up taking the money from the buy back and got a 3281 X with only 28,000 mi. A great car once you get rid of the stupid run-flats.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I feel you pain DB. A further .... off is the waste gate coking up and jamming on every turbo diesel I've owned and the ECU lurches into service mode.



You obviously missed all the bits in between. I defy you to read the entire thread.

That's what makes this forum so inimitable.

Click to expand...

I've been using v-power nitro diesel, bit dearer but supposedly keeps engine bits cleaner. Just a q? Do you get out for decent runs with your motor? A friend of mine had loads of 'limp mode' problems and it turned out his Mrs was doing short school runs and not getting the revs up anywhere.

danski said:

I've been using v-power nitro diesel, bit dearer but supposedly keeps engine bits cleaner. Just a q? Do you get out for decent runs with your motor? A friend of mine had loads of 'limp mode' problems and it turned out his Mrs was doing short school runs and not getting the revs up anywhere.

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Don't own a diesel anymore - the timing chain let go on the last one.

Actually it was the opposite. I purposefully bought it because of my commute which is 55 miles a day. Have a petrol engine now.