2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

warthog1 said:

I watched that era too. He was a great rider and that is a good story about the brakes, I bet that bloke was very careful on the brakes after that!
Different bikes and tyres back then but I enjoyed watching Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan more. They got the bikes more out of shape, particularly Schwantz and Doohan. Lawson kept it all alot tidier which worked well for him. Rainey was very bloody good. .... way for his career to end
That determination and ability to stuff a bike so hard into a corner and come out the other side places Marquez above them all for me but yes it is hard to compare different eras with their tyres and bike differences. I will make the point that Marquez is doing his stuff on a heavier machine. His ability to save that front still stuns me.

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Eddie and Mick remain very close to the top of my personal pantheon, and imo Mick couldn’t reasonably have been asked to do much more than he did on the bikes of his era. He also started late in the first place having started in superbikes, and won all 5 titles after a fairly horrendous leg injury which nearly cost him his leg and not just his prospects for winning titles. If MM wins another title after his last 4 years including his own injury problems and at the age when Mick was winning his last titles he definitely exceeds Mick even imo though.

I am a Stoner tragic, but even more objectively he is an interesting case. Imo no one has ridden better or more spectacularly than Casey did in the 2 years he won the titles, he did the impossible in a fairly equal fashion to MM in those years imo even if by employing different methodology, and the way he could find the fastest way around a track in a couple of laps on pretty much any bike remains highly impressive and close to unique, again imo. He didn’t of course in any way challenge MM for sustained excellence/drive/will to win, not even managing to put together two successive seasons of consistent peak genius level riding, which he had the chance to do on the Honda in 2012 if not so much riding a Ducati. I do think as he does that he would have destroyed the field and won the 2012 title in a canter on the original version of the Honda 1000 before Dorna’s interventions, he was ridiculously fast in pre-season testing, but he still had good enough equipment imo to win the title if he had managed to have more focus.

michaelm said:

We had a similar progression then.

I was a motorsports fan from my early teens and started watching car racing live at the track from my mid teens, the local Australian variety of course. I became a fairly avid F1 fan once that started being telecast live here, Formula Cosworth being a pretty fair spectacle anyway and coming with the benefit of having one of the leading exponents of F1 driving back then in Alan Jones to support/ root for as you guys say but we don’t.

At school we followed late career Ago somewhat which you could really only do in the bike press after the events, but when they started telecasting 500 gp bike racing in Australia this quickly supplanted F1 for me, again with help from Wayne Gardner being competitive.

I was a Gardner fan then and only saw Eddie’s last 2 titles, but partly in retrospect Lawson was the man for me as well and stands comparison with any rider imo, particularly in regard to being of high character as you say.

Gardner was in some ways like MM, with little in the way of fear, and just went ahead and rode an impossible bike, but unlike MM was only able to stay on the bike enough times to win the title once, although 20 odd race wins is not to be sneezed at, particularly in that era.

Eddie changed bikes and won straight away on that Honda, with he and Erv Kanemoto actually taming the tthing. Mick Doohan early in his GP career reputedly asked Eddie for advice on how to ride the Honda, which was presenting Mick with difficulties at the time.

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It is a little strange recalling events of 30-40-50-60 years ago. Even 20! I attended a sports car race at Laguna in 1960, the first I remember. I may have gone to earlier ones, my parents were always going to races. Some memories are indelible. Others I can barely remember being there. I was familiar with Ago the name but I never got to see a GP during his time. The family didn’t have TV and there just was just not the access you have today anyway.

I remember Gardner and agree with your assessment, but for sure he wasn’t as deep as MM. I was at Laguna the day he got hurt there. I always remember Lawson talking about Gardner, saying he admired his commitment to riding the bike like he did. Lawson called it ”whacking the throttle”, implying that he himself would never ride like that. Those two famously did not get along!

The racing today is just as exciting as it ever was, bring it on!

Bern1 said:

The mechanic had forgotten to fully fasten the bolts holding the calipers in. The team owner asked Eddie if he wanted the man fired. Lawson replied that he wanted that guy taking care of his brakes for the rest of the season.

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Eddie probably figured that the guy wouldn't make that mistake again after seeing what happened

What's happened to long lap penalties? I'd like to see if Zarco is still the king of the long lap

MdubSTYLIE said:

You mean the move Marc had to drop a position after doing? Thank you for proving my point. Marc had to drop a position which I agree with. What is there to talk about? As I said yesterday for some reason when someone hits Marc and I want to complain about that lack of punishment someone always has to bring up something Marc did. In this case a move he was given the exact penalty I am saying Pecco should have gotten for the same type of move. Thanks again for making my case.

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Yes, I meant that move. Did you think the action taken was fair? He was not penalized in practice. MM inserted his bike into the Mir's side almost throwing him away. Was it any other rider and the penalty would be at least a long lap. But I don't recall you questioning about the action taken.

Keshav said:

You get what you pay for.

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I didn't pay for hypocrisy. Ima activate my warranty clausule right now.

michaelm said:

There was some trolling earlier in the thread imo but not by you. As I said you are entitled to your opinion and you argue your corner, the purpose for which sports forums exist. If you are a Bagnaia fan he has given you every reason to be.

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If I were a Bagnaia fan I would not be rooting for MM first win in Ducati last sunday.

p4p1 said:

The move Marc was penalised for that no one on the forum disagreed with? That move.

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I disagree with the action taken, as well as Mir.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...stewards-after-marquez-sprint-clash/10604005/

"So, the last time I received a penalty was in Portimao in the [2023] sprint race, similar thing. I braked, I overtook Fabio, I lost the front, I kicked Fabio out and he lost a couple of positions.

"I crashed and for the race on Sunday they gave me a double long lap.

"That was the last penalty I got. So, this time he didn't crash, he hit me out of the track, I lost four positions – [he is] demoted one position. I want to understand.

"This is something that when I went into the box I was with a poker face because I say 'how is this possible that one rider you say one thing, and for the same move or even worse it's [only] demoted one position'."

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So, how is it possible? I say to you, Mir. It's possible cause just like on the internet, the paddock is full of Marc fanboys. They just gave him a "drop 1 position" penalty so they don't look much fanboy and all the fanboys now can say "Marc was penalized, shut up!".

gui22a said:

Yes, I meant that move. Did you think the action taken was fair? He was not penalized in practice. MM inserted his bike into the Mir's side almost throwing him away. Was it any other rider and the penalty would be at least a long lap. But I don't recall you questioning about the action taken.

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I said the penalty was justified. I prefer these position penalties over the long lap but I prefer that for any rider. I think the long lap is stupid. Had they given him a long lap I wouldn't have complained. Fabio got a long lap for less so I'd accept it. Hopefully they are going toward position penalties over the long lap this year.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I said the penalty was justified. I prefer these position penalties over the long lap but I prefer that for any rider. I thing the long lap is stupid. Had they given him a long lap I wouldn't have complained. Fabio for a long lap for less so I'd accept it. Hopefully they are going toward position penalties over the long lap this year.

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So they should apply the same rules for everyone. Lot's of riders complaining the direction does not treat all them on equal terms.

gui22a said:

So they should apply the same rules for everyone. Lot's of riders complaining the direction does not treat all them on equal terms.

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thats my big issue here is that the rules are different depending on rider and situation. To me its simple. Making contact with a rider overtaking them should result in having to give the position back. Plain and simple. If they chose to never give this penalty and allow it I wouldn't complain either. F1 drivers will give the position right back before the penalty can be given. I think that is a smart move.

MdubSTYLIE said:

thats my big issue here is that the rules are different depending on rider and situation. To me its simple. Making contact with a rider overtaking them should result in having to give the position back. Plain and simple. If they chose to never give this penalty and allow it I wouldn't complain either. F1 drivers will give the position right back before the penalty can be given. I think that is a smart move.

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I agree on the giving back the position on contact but I also see the issue that the rider being overtaken could turn a little to make the contact happen

mikesbytes said:

I agree on the giving back the position on contact but I also see the issue that the rider being overtaken could turn a little to make the contact happen

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TBH I think this falls into the ‘I expected contact’ category.

mikesbytes said:

I agree on the giving back the position on contact but I also see the issue that the rider being overtaken could turn a little to make the contact happen

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That would be a huge risk. The bike on the outside will lose this battle every time. If they are turning in on the desired line thats fine and within their right.

gui22a said:

I disagree with the action taken, as well as Mir.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...stewards-after-marquez-sprint-clash/10604005/

"So, the last time I received a penalty was in Portimao in the [2023] sprint race, similar thing. I braked, I overtook Fabio, I lost the front, I kicked Fabio out and he lost a couple of positions.

"I crashed and for the race on Sunday they gave me a double long lap.

"That was the last penalty I got. So, this time he didn't crash, he hit me out of the track, I lost four positions – [he is] demoted one position. I want to understand.

"This is something that when I went into the box I was with a poker face because I say 'how is this possible that one rider you say one thing, and for the same move or even worse it's [only] demoted one position'."

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So, how is it possible? I say to you, Mir. It's possible cause just like on the internet, the paddock is full of Marc fanboys. They just gave him a "drop 1 position" penalty so they don't look much fanboy and all the fanboys now can say "Marc was penalized, shut up!".

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I didn't watch the end of the sprint race and didn't see the incident, but it sounds like a penalty was justified and could have been stronger, although as you, I and others have said consistency is not the strong point of RD in recent years, and not just recently but in all of the decades I have followed the sport they have been influenced imo by the identity/fame etc of the rider or riders involved.

I agree with Mdub that each individual incident should be judged on the merits and circumstances of the particular incident, but complaints about incidents can be hypocritical imo, and whatever his faults MM is in the opinion of most at least no hypocrite in regard to complaining about fellow riders in incidents involving him. As I recall Mir's attitude was a liitle different when he was the overdog or considered himself as such. I can recall two separate incidents involving him and Jack Miller when he was the defending world champion and Jack Miller was a Ducati factory rider, one where he ran him off the track and another when he took him out of a race with an unfeasible attempted pass, and to perhaps embellish things a little pretty much justified the incidents on the basis of him being defending champion and it not really being fair that Jack's Ducati was faster than a Suzuki on the straights.

gui22a said:

If I were a Bagnaia fan I would not be rooting for MM first win in Ducati last sunday.

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I did very deliberately post the word 'if".

Figured I'd throw up some Eddie Lawson pictures.

I think he may have been the greatest of the 500cc World Champions which is certainly no offense to the others. But his achievements are an extremely high bar to beat.

gui22a said:

I didn't pay for hypocrisy. Ima activate my warranty clausule right now.

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Ever notice how many of your posts are about, I didn’t do this, I didn’t say that. I didn’t mean that. I didn’t intend this other thing. You sure do spend a lot of time denying stuff. I think there’s a word for that. Now what was that …….? Hmmm.

warthog1 said:

I watched that era too. He was a great rider and that is a good story about the brakes, I bet that bloke was very careful on the brakes after that!
Different bikes and tyres back then but I enjoyed watching Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan more. They got the bikes more out of shape, particularly Schwantz and Doohan. Lawson kept it all alot tidier which worked well for him. Rainey was very bloody good. .... way for his career to end
That determination and ability to stuff a bike so hard into a corner and come out the other side places Marquez above them all for me but yes it is hard to compare different eras with their tyres and bike differences. I will make the point that Marquez is doing his stuff on a heavier machine. His ability to save that front still stuns me.

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I think it is possible that by the time Doohan, Rainey and Schwantz were going at it the bikes had become more powerful and allowed the rider to use that power in a way that was not possible just a few years before. Hence the "show" improved and the high sides also perhaps got higher.

That era of racing was fantastic, those three in particular of course. But I think that of all the eras when you are watching the best riders. Sometimes the skill set changes just a little and certain riders may adapt better to the new requirements determined by the machines and tires. I believe we are witnessing just such a change these days.

gui22a said:

I disagree with the action taken, as well as Mir.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...stewards-after-marquez-sprint-clash/10604005/

"So, the last time I received a penalty was in Portimao in the [2023] sprint race, similar thing. I braked, I overtook Fabio, I lost the front, I kicked Fabio out and he lost a couple of positions.

"I crashed and for the race on Sunday they gave me a double long lap.

"That was the last penalty I got. So, this time he didn't crash, he hit me out of the track, I lost four positions – [he is] demoted one position. I want to understand.

"This is something that when I went into the box I was with a poker face because I say 'how is this possible that one rider you say one thing, and for the same move or even worse it's [only] demoted one position'."

--------------------
So, how is it possible? I say to you, Mir. It's possible cause just like on the internet, the paddock is full of Marc fanboys. They just gave him a "drop 1 position" penalty so they don't look much fanboy and all the fanboys now can say "Marc was penalized, shut up!".

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So those who regard you as biased and/or disagree with you do so because they are MM fanboys ?.. Others being biased doesn't actually preclude you from being biased,

Imo what really motivates Dorna and has permeated RD is what is best for their show.. As one example particularly towards the end of the season while they don't imo contrive results they do like to see the championship in the balance for as long as possible if there is any discretion available to achieve same. MM himself has been a victim of this, perhaps before his status was fully established, at PI 2013. Even as a Lorenzo fan at the time it would have been ridiculous if MM had lost the title as a result of being black flagged for flouting a rule they literally made up 5 minutes before the race and may not have explained adequately to his Spanish speaking crew.

michaelm said:

So those who regard you as biased and/or disagree with you do so because they are MM fanboys ?.. Others being biased doesn't actually preclude you from being biased,

Imo what really motivates Dorna and has permeated RD is what is best for their show.. As one example particularly towards the end of the season while they don't imo contrive results they do like to see the championship in the balance for as long as possible if there is any discretion available to achieve same. MM himself has been a victim of this, perhaps before his status was fully established, at PI 2013. Even as a Lorenzo fan at the time it would have been ridiculous if MM had lost the title as a result of being black flagged for flouting a rule they literally made up 5 minutes before the race and may not have explained adequately to his Spanish speaking crew.

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The problem and evidenced by conflicting views on this forum is that when these fine margin events occur it comes down to an individual subjective decision and that even occurs in RD. We’ve had a rider say he was expecting contact which I think is fair enough, he hasn’t said he was seeking contact but was prepared if it did happen and undoubtedly the other rider was thinking the same. These boys are the elite of motorcycle racing and have the skills to accept a small brush against a fellow rider and be unsettled but can reset as long as enough track space is left. We’ve all seen the kamikaze dive pass that the catches the lead rider totally unawares and he’s momentarily fazed which causes him to run to close to the rear of the passing rider, brake and totally miss the apex and run on or off the track. We never hold the passing rider to account for that manoeuvre do we? We expect the lead rider to be aware of his situation and possible pass attempts, touch gloves and defend yourself at all times Ding Ding! If it’s a clear and obvious barge we can all I would guess agree on it but where it’s a cutback and the possibility of minimal contact that’s where we get the arguments. But we’ve got to remember that for a pass to happen the lead rider has to accept he’s been passed and give way?
I don’t have problems with let’s call it spirited riding because the riders are of such a calibre they are able to do it without it getting outright dirty. I do take a dim view if it’s used on a rider of a lesser standard and see that as bullying.
I agree Michaelm that riders are treated by what they bring to the show to a certain extent but we see that in a lot of sports nowadays with all the money involved, boxing and U.K. Premier League soccer where the lowly teams always get the bums rush. It’s mostly about the money and the show in RD but I wouldn’t like to be in Zarcos shoes after what he said to Freddie Spencer!