2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

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I actually think if Pecco didn't get away with that move, Marc might have pulled the pin on him. Or Pecco would have tried to stuff it up the inside at the final corner. Actually I could see Pecco doing that.

The thing that concerns me is that Marc isn't going to back down from Pecco obviously. Pecco thinks because he got away with it Sunday he is going to be able to get away with it any time because he no doubt has VR whispering in his ear about it. Marc is going to force him to crash at some point IMO. We know Marc lives for this .... so it's not like Pecco gained the massive advantage he thinks he gained. I laugh about the idea of Pecco thinking he's going to play mind games with Marc. His boss tried and fried out. Pecco isn't even cut from that cloth.

My thoughts exactly. Pecco even stated as much when talking about racing Marc. Thats his head game. He said when racing Marc you expect contact. What he really means is he is going to punt Marc any chance he gets. He failed miserably in Portimão. Succeeded in Jerez. Playing this game is going to cost Pecco the title which in return gives Marc a better chance at being his teammate next year.
 
Pecco is an interesting character. He is portrayed publicly as a sanctimonious personality, particularly when he made the mistake of opining that satellite bikes are too fast for his liking.....during a championship battle with someone on a satellite bike. His riding is quite intelligent, but I can see why fans of other riders would not gravitate towards him. Rossi is charismatic and imaginative. Pecco is conventional. Marc is a dare-devil and he dares people to race with him. Pecco sort of puts a wheel in your side and says "mi scusi". Stoner would never disrespect another competitor by making contact, not even if he's going around the outside at Turn 1 at Laguna. Pecco does not have that sort of reverence for his competitors (as you point out).

He's unusual multiple MotoGP champion. Unpersuasive and uncharismatic, but with good stats. He occasionally makes embarrassing mistakes, but he doesn't really possess offsetting superhuman talents. Very Prost-like. If the new formula gives the riders more control, it seems like Pecco will be the biggest benefactor or loser, depending on how he performs after 2026.
We all have or preferences, even the most measured of posters which I consider you and Bern 1 to be on this forum, and as always your post is extremely well argued.

Much to admire about Bagnaia even if he is not my favourite, he is certainly overall the guy who has mastered the current aero/ride height bikes best up till now, and I guess somewhat to my surprise I have become a latter day MM fan, and as for several others he is the major reason I watch now. I remain a Casey Stoner fanboy in the larger scheme of things though.

MM I believe has a perhaps peculiar sense of sportsmanship. . He will barge past riders he considers uncompetitive as he did in the sprint race which I stopped watching after he crashed, but I think behaves differently with those he considers to be peers, and while I may have selective memory one of the reasons he has lost quite a number of races on the last lap is because he has accepted being passed legitimately and not counter attacked as Bagnaia did.

I thought MM’s pass on Bagnaia was fair, there was no contact and he left him enough room not to crash. If Bagnaia’s counter is legitimate as I said earlier in the thread then how is Bagnaia to be passed ?, given it is unlikely to be on a straight when he is on a GP24 particularly iby an opponent riding a GP 23. You probably can’t make that move on very many riders without both of you going down anyway, as MDub says MM is a “....... mongoose” with hair trigger reflexes who can respond. To me, along with MDub and others MM had successfully passed him, and the counter both involved inevitable contact with a rider ahead of him from the getgo as Bagnaia more or less admitted post race, and both of them going down was beyond his control and entirely dependent on MM, only imo of course.
 
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My thoughts exactly. Pecco even stated as much when talking about racing Marc. Thats his head game. He said when racing Marc you expect contact. What he really means is he is going to punt Marc any chance he gets. He failed miserably in Portimão. Succeeded in Jerez. Playing this game is going to cost Pecco the title which in return gives Marc a better chance at being his teammate next year.

Agreed. He'll lose the title getting in fights with Marc who really has nothing to lose. I don't see it working every single time he tries it. Le Mans is going to be a really interesting race in my opinion.
 
> Marc ... behaves differently with those he considers peers

Quite agree, and it's one of the reasons I dislike him, even though he's clearly one of the most skilled riders of all time. He used to barge into anyone, and presumably caught enough heat for it to change his behavior... If it's in the top five or so. Lower than that, he's still happy just to drive into people. Dunno if he thinks nobody will notice, or he just doesn't think they deserve any better. That kind of tactic was too cheap to fly when it was me racing my roommate in Gran Turismo 2 twenty plus years ago, I don't understand why the greatest rider of a generation has to resort to such.
 
Per the earlier discussion regarding Marc and Casey, I had a wild thought.

Everyone knows Casey rode the Ducati to the point of getting through corners, it involved nearly crashing the bike every single time.

Marc on the other hand went even further at Honda, and was willing to crash the bike just to find the absolute limit.

I think that's the difference between them as well. Marc has no fear of finding the absolute limit which takes enormous bravery. That's why my sorry ass is sitting on my couch watching.
I can't remember who it was that pointed out (in a negative way) that MM's 'superhuman' ability was risk taking, being that he was willing to crash constantly. Obviously that is far from his only talent as the poster was trying to imply but like fast reflexes that insanity of a mindset is absolutely a talent in a sport.
 
As for Marc's crash, one could argue his was far more egregious because he was in the lead with clear track...and he made a blunder.
Conditions weren't the best, Marc was one of 15 riders to go down. Yes he made a blunder but so did the majority of the grid
its like they flip a coin and let the coin decide if its a penalty or not.
Race direction need to continue to work on the metrics of what is a penalty and what penalty is handed out. Having said that if must be dam hard to be consistent
Wasn't it last year the I think Pecco was given a one spot penalty. So he passed the rider in front of him then gave it right back. That was a bending of the rule if you ask me.
The problem is that by the time the penalty is handed out the disadvantaged could be anywhere so it may not be feasible or even possible to specify the rider. Instead what about a 1 second time penalty? Or a long lap penalty?
 
Is this the facial reaction of someone who feels they’ve been treated badly by another? If not why are we so bothered by it?
 

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> Marc ... behaves differently with those he considers peers

Quite agree, and it's one of the reasons I dislike him, even though he's clearly one of the most skilled riders of all time. He used to barge into anyone, and presumably caught enough heat for it to change his behavior... If it's in the top five or so. Lower than that, he's still happy just to drive into people. Dunno if he thinks nobody will notice, or he just doesn't think they deserve any better. That kind of tactic was too cheap to fly when it was me racing my roommate in Gran Turismo 2 twenty plus years ago, I don't understand why the greatest rider of a generation has to resort to such.
Who are these peers? Examples of your blanket statement backed up by nothing please. Espargaro and him are close he has treated him the same. So once again its not okay to bang your way through the pack but it is for the lead? Marc has been penalized rightly so for these actions, so what your point? That Pecco banging into the lead is ok because a. its not Marc and b. its for the lead.
 
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Conditions weren't the best, Marc was one of 15 riders to go down. Yes he made a blunder but so did the majority of the grid

Race direction need to continue to work on the metrics of what is a penalty and what penalty is handed out. Having said that if must be dam hard to be consistent

The problem is that by the time the penalty is handed out the disadvantaged could be anywhere so it may not be feasible or even possible to specify the rider. Instead what about a 1 second time penalty? Or a long lap penalty?
He made the pass a lap after it came up on his dash that he had to drop a position. He picked the right moment to pass let the rider back through and then repassed by the next corner.
 
Is this the facial reaction of someone who feels they’ve been treated badly by another? If not why are we so bothered by it?
Have you ever seen Marc react differently? Its not he who refuses handshakes and moves on. But this is an internet forum we are intitled to discuss things we feel are wrong. You are intitle to your opinion even if it is wrong.
 
Have you ever seen Marc react differently? Its not he who refuses handshakes and moves on. But this is an internet forum we are intitled to discuss things we feel are wrong. You are intitle to your opinion even if it is wrong.
MM looks to me like a guy who, following all his travails of the last 4 years and at age 31, after 4 rounds of this season is literally still in the picture for the fastest rider in the world, with the other guy in the picture having just set ground rules for future combat which rather suit him.
 
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MM looks to me like a guy who after all his travails of the last 4 years and at age 31 after 4 rounds of this season is literally still in the picture for the fastest rider in the world, with the other guy in the picture having just set ground rules for future combat which rather suit him.
Marc has proven this year that he doesn't have to use these tactics to battle with Pecco. Twice Marc has made clean passes on Pecco. Twice Pecco responded by hitting him. Pecco may have won the race but he is losing the battle. His tactics will work sometimes at best.
 
and Marquez gets penalized and chastised for. When its done to him its no big deal because he doesn't throw his toys over it. He bumped a rider to gain a position, which should result in giving the position back. Nothing less nothing more. I only say this because its like they flip a coin and let the coin decide if its a penalty or not. If its not a penalty fine, but if you are demoting people a position than the same rule is for everyone.
Exactly my point too, along with many MotoGP riders. There needs to be consistency.
I can understand where you're coming from. If you distill the events into their simplest form, a wheel in the leathers is a wheel in the leathers.

However, you would probably also acknowledge that circumstantial context is important. Bagnaia hit Bezzecchi the day before during the sprint, but we all probably agree that Bagnaia did not deserve a penalty because he was hit into Bezzecchi (to some degree) by Binder.
I guess the argument for that was Bagnaias penelty was his crash. Which is fair enough. The issue is, Quartararo collided with Mir in Portimao 2023 and crashed himself (Mir didn't), yet he was given a penalty.
In Jerez, when Aleix Espargaro crashed with Zarco, sending them both down...he got no penalty. However, Marquez got a penalty for a similar incident in the same race as above.
It goes back to consistency.

After originally thinking he was a more talented version of Cal Crutchlow, whom I always liked btw, , I now think he is actually very smart which the risk taking had dissuaded me from originally.
Careful, you'll trigger Mdub!!!
A Marquez must of been pretty happy with his 4th place
Alex rode great all weekend and was unfortunate to miss out on a Sprint podium.
 
Gigi Dall’igna on Marquez vs Bagnaia: “It was tough but fair, with mutual respect”

Gigi enjoyed the battle, and had some flattering comments about Marc.

Dall’Igna added: “All this also thanks to a stalwart and indomitable Marquez, a champion rediscovered who enhances Pecco's achievement even more, as well as doing justice to his team and to the great work they are all doing together.

According to the article I posted in the 2025 silly season, Dallignia basically has carte blanche on who to choose as riders, only having to confer with Claudio Domenicalli.

Nowadays, at Ducati, almost all the important decisions go through Dall'Igna, in consensus with CEO Claudio Domenicali. And both in the offices of the Bolognese team, as well as in the garage, there is the conviction that the engineer is very excited to see Marquez wearing red. Last year, Ducati repeated time and again that it was not at all interested in the #93 rider.
 
We all have or preferences, even the most measured of posters which I consider you and Bern 1 to be on this forum, and as always your post is extremely well argued.

Much to admire about Bagnaia even if he is not my favourite, he is certainly overall the guy who has mastered the current aero/ride height bikes best up till now, and I guess somewhat to my surprise I have become a latter day MM fan, and as for several others he is the major reason I watch now. I remain a Casey Stoner fanboy in the larger scheme of things though.

MM I believe has a perhaps peculiar sense of sportsmanship. . He will barge past riders he considers uncompetitive as he did in the sprint race which I stopped watching after he crashed, but I think behaves differently with those he considers to be peers, and while I may have selective memory one of the reasons he has lost quite a number of races on the last lap is because he has accepted being passed legitimately and not counter attacked as Bagnaia did.

I thought MM’s pass on Bagnaia was fair, there was no contact and he left him enough room not to crash. If Bagnaia’s counter is legitimate as I said earlier in the thread then how is Bagnaia to be passed ?, given it is unlikely to be on a straight when he is on a GP24 particularly iby an opponent riding a GP 23. You probably can’t make that move on very many riders without both of you going down anyway, as MDub says MM is a “....... mongoose” with hair trigger reflexes who can respond. To me, along with MDub and others MM had successfully passed him, and the counter both involved inevitable contact with a rider ahead of him from the getgo as Bagnaia more or less admitted post race, and both of them going down was beyond his control and entirely dependent on MM, only imo of course.

It's funny that hardship can make a sportsman more appealing to the skeptical mind. I was skeptical of Stoner when he first entered GP, but after the tire changes and the malevolent disregard from Dorna (and their agent V Rossi), I felt privileged to watch Stoner mop-up the competition in 2011, even if it was processional. I don't bet on sports, but Stoner's WC in 2011 was a lock. I hope Stoner fans bet the farm.

Now that the battle between Marquez and the Machine has been revealed, I can identify with Marc a bit more. The organization that was mobilized to coronate him, has been mobilized to curtail his influence. His attitude hasn't changed though, which is admirable. His choices from now will further shape my perception of him. If he makes a Faustian deal with factory Ducati, it diminishes him a bit, imo, but the record books don't really care about reputation, do they?

Regarding Bagnaia, and alignment with the personality schema of athletes, I wonder if he treats his teammates like Muhammad Ali? Larry Holmes once said something like, Ali is the nicest man in the world, as long as you accept that he is the champion. Holmes felt that Ali was not supportive when it was time for him to graduate from sparring partner to heavyweight champion. Holmes never lost his respect or admiration for Ali, but without his stature as champion, Ali was allegedly no longer able to relate to Holmes, especially after their bout in 1980. Maybe, Bagnaia is the same. He is friendly and content, as long as you are in check. But if threatened, his mask of sanity slips. The satellite bikes are too fast......

We'll see. Pecco has only been in the limelight for 3 seasons. He has a long road ahead.
 
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