2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

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MdubSTYLIE said:
You can't say a leading rider knows something is coming. If a rider attempting to make a pass contacts a rider its 100% his fault. You cannot blame a rider who just made an over take or a rider who was leading such as Mir. Its within their right to not get pushed wide due to contact. Had Marc left the door open and contact wasn't made fine but that wasn't the case. Pecco even admitted he knew there would be contact. Thats not ok. Marc and Pecco's moves were the same and if one is a penalty so is the other.
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Hard to believe MM elected to fend off the riposte to his pass with his shoulder.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
No the move Pecco made on Marc to regain the lead with 4 or so laps to go. It was the same thing Marc was penalized for in the sprint race.
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I think that was Lap 5. The pass on Lap 4 was clean. Technically, on lap 5 Pecco did get through after making contact. It looked like Marc's ride height might not have engaged? I suppose race direction could have ordered him to give the position back to Marc.

While the contact between Marquez and Mir bears resemblance to Bagnaia and Marquez, the circumstances were a bit different. Marc was charging back through the field after crashing out the lead and he hit a hapless Repsol Honda rider who was in position to score a point. Considering the difference in pace, Marquez had plenty of passing opportunities, and it was Ducati on Honda contact.

Bagnaia and Marc were battling for the race lead, with similar pace, few overtaking opportunities and it was Ducati on Ducati.

I suppose riders shouldn't care what brand of motorcycle they are overtaking, nor should they avoid overtaking opportunities because they aren't at the front of the field; however, riders probably should be aware of the difference in pace, and make calculated overtakes. I think this is ultimately why Marquez was penalized, and it does make the collisions distinct, even though they looked quite similar to the eye.
 
Bern1 said:
I get the frustration but it’s an internet forum.



I feel the same way most of the time. I was all hot under the collar about Sepang 2015 but that was….8 years ago. My memory is now such that I vaguely remember what happened. Fortunately Michaelm reminds us all once in a while. I like reading his posts about this because he goes to the trouble of going back and digging the stuff up!



yeah I get it but it’s an internet forum. I’d be pissed if I was censored, as I’m sure you would be. Fortunately it hasn’t come to that here, including for people I don’t agree with. Sometimes or always!


Yeah, I get it. I think we all have selective memory on perceived transgressions mostly based upon whether we like the rider or not.


Well I believe Pecco has been penalized, as has Binder, MM, Quartararo, etc. etc. It’s normal for fans of the rider being penalized to think it’s wrong. It’s like in soccer (football), one person sees a penalty and another sees a willful dive to incur one.


You could also say MM was unimpressive on Saturday, what with crashing out of the lead.


Hmmm

Well all right all, thanks for indulging me in my say. I wish you al
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mylexicon said:
I think that was Lap 5. The pass on Lap 4 was clean. Technically, on lap 5 Pecco did get through after making contact. It looked like Marc's ride height might not have engaged? I suppose race direction could have ordered him to give the position back to Marc.

While the contact between Marquez and Mir bears resemblance to Bagnaia and Marquez, the circumstances were a bit different. Marc was charging back through the field after crashing out the lead and he hit a hapless Repsol Honda rider who was in position to score a point. Considering the difference in pace, Marquez had plenty of passing opportunities, and it was Ducati on Honda contact.

Bagnaia and Marc were battling for the race lead, with similar pace, few overtaking opportunities and it was Ducati on Ducati.

I suppose riders shouldn't care what brand of motorcycle they are overtaking, nor should they avoid overtaking opportunities because they aren't at the front of the field; however, riders probably should be aware of the difference in pace, and make calculated overtakes. I think this is ultimately why Marquez was penalized, and it does make the collisions distinct, even though they looked quite similar to the eye.
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22 and I are talkng about the move with 5 laps to go. Pecco cut under and knocked Marc wide. Like he attempted in Portimão only with success this time. Had the corner been 180 it would have most likely ended the same.



3 minute mark in this video

 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
22 and I are talkng about the move with 5 laps to go. Pecco cut under and knocked Marc wide. Like he attempted in Portimão only with success this time. Had the corner been 180 it would have most likely ended the same.



3 minute mark in this video

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Can’t really see what there is to complain about here, unless you want to complain about hard racing, which Marquez himself does not complain about.
 
Bern1 said:
Can’t really see what there is to complain about here, unless you want to complain about hard racing, which Marquez himself does not complain about.
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and Marquez gets penalized and chastised for. When its done to him its no big deal because he doesn't throw his toys over it. He bumped a rider to gain a position, which should result in giving the position back. Nothing less nothing more. I only say this because its like they flip a coin and let the coin decide if its a penalty or not. If its not a penalty fine, but if you are demoting people a position than the same rule is for everyone.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
and Marquez gets penalized and chastised for. When its done to him its no big deal because he doesn't throw his toys over it. He bumped a rider to gain a position, which should result in giving the position back. Nothing less nothing more. I only say this because its like they flip a coin and let the coin decide if its a penalty or not. If its not a penalty fine, but if you are demoting people a position than the same rule is for everyone.
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I can understand where you're coming from. If you distill the events into their simplest form, a wheel in the leathers is a wheel in the leathers.

However, you would probably also acknowledge that circumstantial context is important. Bagnaia hit Bezzecchi the day before during the sprint, but we all probably agree that Bagnaia did not deserve a penalty because he was hit into Bezzecchi (to some degree) by Binder.

Ultimately, context, substance, and probably intent are all part of assessing equitable penalties. Some people will make it personal, but we're really just arguing about what should/shouldn't be considered by the race stewards. In my mind, a faster rider hitting a slower rider as he makes his way back through the field after crashing out of the lead is different than two riders battling for the race lead with similar pace in limited overtaking opportunities.

It was nice to see two world champs vie for the same piece of pavement. It could easily have ended like Espargaro and Zarco. One rider was determined to launch an attack, and the other rider was determined to stop it from happening. Neither rider seemed to care that they were choosing the most dangerous corner and perhaps the most dangerous way to attack and defend. Bagnaia and Marquez were much smarter.
 
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mylexicon said:
I can understand where you're coming from. If you distill the events into their simplest form, a wheel in the leathers is a wheel in the leathers.

However, you would probably also acknowledge that circumstantial context is important. Bagnaia hit Bezzecchi the day before during the sprint, but we all probably agree that Bagnaia did not deserve a penalty because he was hit into Bezzecchi (to some degree) by Binder.

Ultimately, context, substance, and probably intent are all part of assessing equitable penalties. Some people will make it personal, but we're really just arguing about what should/shouldn't be considered by the race stewards. In my mind, a faster rider hitting a slower rider as he makes his way back through the field after crashing out of the lead is different than two riders battling for the race lead with similar pace in limited overtaking opportunities.

It was nice to see two world champs vie for the same piece of pavement. It could easily have ended like Espargaro and Zarco. One rider was determined to launch an attack, and the other rider was determined to stop it from happening. Neither rider seemed to care that they were choosing the most dangerous corner and perhaps the most dangerous way to attack and defend. Bagnaia and Marquez were much smarter.
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Good post. I just differ in the simple fact that something is or isn't a penalty. I would prefer it isn't but if a rider uses his bike to push a rider wide to gain a position the position should have to be given back. It doesn't matter what position they are in a foul is a foul. But like I said I'd pefer they never called it.

Wasn't it last year the I think Pecco was given a one spot penalty. So he passed the rider in front of him then gave it right back. That was a bending of the rule if you ask me.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Good post. I just differ in the simple fact that something is or isn't a penalty. I would prefer it isn't but if a rider uses his bike to push a rider wide to gain a position the position should have to be given back. It doesn't matter what position they are in a foul is a foul. But like I said I'd pefer they never called it.

Wasn't it last year the I think Pecco was given a one spot penalty. So he passed the rider in front of him then gave it right back. That was a bending of the rule if you ask me.
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Pecco is an interesting character. He is portrayed publicly as a sanctimonious personality, particularly when he made the mistake of opining that satellite bikes are too fast for his liking.....during a championship battle with someone on a satellite bike. His riding is quite intelligent, but I can see why fans of other riders would not gravitate towards him. Rossi is charismatic and imaginative. Pecco is conventional. Marc is a dare-devil and he dares people to race with him. Pecco sort of puts a wheel in your side and says "mi scusi". Stoner would never disrespect another competitor by making contact, not even if he's going around the outside at Turn 1 at Laguna. Pecco does not have that sort of reverence for his competitors (as you point out).

He's unusual multiple MotoGP champion. Unpersuasive and uncharismatic, but with good stats. He occasionally makes embarrassing mistakes, but he doesn't really possess offsetting superhuman talents. Very Prost-like. If the new formula gives the riders more control, it seems like Pecco will be the biggest benefactor or loser, depending on how he performs after 2026.
 
mylexicon said:
Pecco is an interesting character. He is portrayed publicly as a sanctimonious personality, particularly when he made the mistake of opining that satellite bikes are too fast for his liking.....during a championship battle with someone on a satellite bike. His riding is quite intelligent, but I can see why fans of other riders would not gravitate towards him. Rossi is charismatic and imaginative. Pecco is conventional. Marc is a dare-devil and he dares people to race with him. Pecco sort of puts a wheel in your side and says "mi scusi". Stoner would never disrespect another competitor by making contact, not even if he's going around the outside at Turn 1 at Laguna. Pecco does not have that sort of reverence for his competitors (as you point out).

He's unusual multiple MotoGP champion. Unpersuasive and uncharismatic, but with good stats. He occasionally makes embarrassing mistakes, but he doesn't really possess offsetting superhuman talents. Very Prost-like. If the new formula gives the riders more control, it seems like Pecco will be the biggest benefactor or loser, depending on how he performs after 2026.
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Unless that rider is slow on the racing line in practice. Just ask RDP.

Excellent post as always. Pecco comes of disingenuous to me. His smile looks like his face is about to crack. His words are well chosen in order to benefit himself. He is also a gas lighter to me. Different from Rossi but effective none the less.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
22 and I are talkng about the move with 5 laps to go. Pecco cut under and knocked Marc wide. Like he attempted in Portimão only with success this time. Had the corner been 180 it would have most likely ended the same.



3 minute mark in this video

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I actually think if Pecco didn't get away with that move, Marc might have pulled the pin on him. Or Pecco would have tried to stuff it up the inside at the final corner. Actually I could see Pecco doing that.

The thing that concerns me is that Marc isn't going to back down from Pecco obviously. Pecco thinks because he got away with it Sunday he is going to be able to get away with it any time because he no doubt has VR whispering in his ear about it. Marc is going to force him to crash at some point IMO. We know Marc lives for this .... so it's not like Pecco gained the massive advantage he thinks he gained. I laugh about the idea of Pecco thinking he's going to play mind games with Marc. His boss tried and fried out. Pecco isn't even cut from that cloth.
 
Per the earlier discussion regarding Marc and Casey, I had a wild thought.

Everyone knows Casey rode the Ducati to the point of getting through corners, it involved nearly crashing the bike every single time.

Marc on the other hand went even further at Honda, and was willing to crash the bike just to find the absolute limit.

I think that's the difference between them as well. Marc has no fear of finding the absolute limit which takes enormous bravery. That's why my sorry ass is sitting on my couch watching.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Unlike pecco who goes off in the media even when he is at fault.
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I watched the post race interview and saw that, hence my saying I doubted that he was trying to block a re-pass attempt with his shoulder which was probably his point.

As JPS has just implied MM is wired differently than a conventional human as far as fear goes, which has obviously not always been to his benefit or occasionally that of his fellow competitors.

After originally thinking he was a more talented version of Cal Crutchlow, whom I always liked btw, , I now think he is actually very smart which the risk taking had dissuaded me from originally.

I don’t think he was really complaining, just noting to all and sundry that the ground rules for future racing between him and Bagnaia had now been set, and by Bagnaia, and perhaps also to the potential future providers of a GP25 that both he and their lead factory rider could have crashed out of a race again, this time from the top positions on the podium, and that it was not due to Bagnaia that this didn’t occur.
 
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