2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

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#22 said:
He also was very UN impressive on Saturday, blew his lap that left him 7th, which ultimately left him in the pack and vulnerable to the accident he was involved in.
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When Peccohead undercuts a rider taking his line away its the other riders fault. When he dives under another ride bashing him wide its a clean move. Dorna is creating a monster letting him get away with this .....
 
Keshav said:
Sure, totally makes sense. You were just making random statements about people and thing totally unrelated to the topic at hand or the people discussing it. Sure, I buy that.
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I get the frustration but it’s an internet forum.

Mick D said:
Well, as every internet discussion eventually devolves to Hitler/Nazis, every MGPF discussion eventually (immediately?) devolves into Rossi/MM/Stoner. Do y'all not realize how ridiculous this groundhog day, continuous rehashing, is?

Wake me up when y'all have a definitive answer, 'til then I'll be enjoying current racing in all classes, in all series globally (when I can) and not wasting my time on the weird, obsessive, fascination with intractable topics.
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I feel the same way most of the time. I was all hot under the collar about Sepang 2015 but that was….8 years ago. My memory is now such that I vaguely remember what happened. Fortunately Michaelm reminds us all once in a while. I like reading his posts about this because he goes to the trouble of going back and digging the stuff up!

warthog1 said:
I have a problem with opinion not being supported by evidence, and there was plenty of that.
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yeah I get it but it’s an internet forum. I’d be pissed if I was censored, as I’m sure you would be. Fortunately it hasn’t come to that here, including for people I don’t agree with. Sometimes or always!
MdubSTYLIE said:
Bashing the side of another rider is hardly an overtake. So far he is 1 for 3 at making that work this season.
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Yeah, I get it. I think we all have selective memory on perceived transgressions mostly based upon whether we like the rider or not.
MdubSTYLIE said:
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I give him credit but he does make a lot of bad moves. His first lap was impressive. His last couple laps were impressive. The way he got back in front of Marc could have resulted in a penalty. I have seen in the past a move like the require the rider to give the position back. If it was Binder he most certainly would have been penalized.
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Well I believe Pecco has been penalized, as has Binder, MM, Quartararo, etc. etc. It’s normal for fans of the rider being penalized to think it’s wrong. It’s like in soccer (football), one person sees a penalty and another sees a willful dive to incur one.
#22 said:
He also was very UN impressive on Saturday, blew his lap that left him 7th, which ultimately left him in the pack and vulnerable to the accident he was involved in.
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You could also say MM was unimpressive on Saturday, what with crashing out of the lead.

MdubSTYLIE said:
When Peccohead undercuts a rider taking his line away its the other riders fault. When he dives under another ride bashing him wide its a clean move. Dorna is creating a monster letting him get away with this .....
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Hmmm

Well all right all, thanks for indulging me in my say. I wish you all well indeed. I do mean all of you, even ones I may disagree with on this or that. I agree with quite a few of you on quite a few things! Cheers!
 
Bern1 said:
You could also say MM was unimpressive on Saturday, what with crashing out of the lead.
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Sure, You could say that. But you could also say he was one of at least 7 riders to fall from the conditions. But he did score pole position. So I disagree with branding his Saturday as unimpressive at Pecco's.
 
Bern1 said:
I get the frustration but it’s an internet forum.
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Not frustrated. Really and truly. Been on this forum for ages and we've seen this stuff come and go. Long ago - I came to terms with the fact that the internet is a platform where the mindless and the moronic can cheaply and efficiently spread flat-earth disinformation. They've always been around, like the free-range tinfoil hat guys in the '50 and '60s you'd see on the streets of NY wearing sandwich board posters declaring the the end of the world and bible quotations about why women should walk 6 feet behind men. Back then when you closed your front door, they were out of sight and out of mind. Now they pop up on the computer display in my office. Progress.

I don't get into flame wars anymore, but admittedly, I do like to gently push their buttons from time-to-time. It's amusing and quite therapeutic.
 
Bern1 said:
Yeah, I get it. I think we all have selective memory on perceived transgressions mostly based upon whether we like the rider or not.
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I have been hard on Marc many times in his past for things he has done. Including last year at Portimão. I'm not sure why people always go to this argument when talking about action when they happen to Marc. Like it justifies what Pecco or any other rider has done. Lets not compare apples to oranges.


Bern1 said:
Well I believe Pecco has been penalized, as has Binder, MM, Quartararo, etc. etc. It’s normal for fans of the rider being penalized to think it’s wrong. It’s like in soccer (football), one person sees a penalty and another sees a willful dive to incur one.
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So what you are saying is this could also have been a penalty. If the riders have been penalized for similar actions before then they can again. I don't get your point. I have never been such a fan. When my rider or team commits a penalty I roll my eyes and sigh. A transgression is a transgression a penalty is a penalty. Consequences of their actions have never been something I debate. Its the lack of consequences in certain situations that I have a problem with. My rider or not. Let us not forget that the person who came up with the term Murder Marc is a fan.
 
Bern1 said:
yeah I get it but it’s an internet forum. I’d be pissed if I was censored, as I’m sure you would be. Fortunately it hasn’t come to that here, including for people I don’t agree with. Sometimes or always!
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You are more patient than I then. If you are going to post opinion then you should be prepared to substantiate it with evidence when challenged. Making crap up or just repeating the same flawed nonsense gets old pretty quickly.
 
warthog1 said:
I have a problem with opinion not being supported by evidence, and there was plenty of that.
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J
Bern1 said:
I get the frustration but it’s an internet forum.



I feel the same way most of the time. I was all hot under the collar about Sepang 2015 but that was….8 years ago. My memory is now such that I vaguely remember what happened. Fortunately Michaelm reminds us all once in a while. I like reading his posts about this because he goes to the trouble of going back and digging the stuff up!



yeah I get it but it’s an internet forum. I’d be pissed if I was censored, as I’m sure you would be. Fortunately it hasn’t come to that here, including for people I don’t agree with. Sometimes or always!


Yeah, I get it. I think we all have selective memory on perceived transgressions mostly based upon whether we like the rider or not.


Well I believe Pecco has been penalized, as has Binder, MM, Quartararo, etc. etc. It’s normal for fans of the rider being penalized to think it’s wrong. It’s like in soccer (football), one person sees a penalty and another sees a willful dive to incur one.


You could also say MM was unimpressive on Saturday, what with crashing out of the lead.


Hmmm

Well all right all, thanks for indulging me in my say. I wish you all well indeed. I do mean all of you, even ones I may disagree with on this or that. I agree with quite a few of you on quite a few things! Cheers!
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You are the soul of reason on this forum imo.

I go both ways on this.

I agree with your recent post about Bagnaia in general and posted something similar on another thread almost simultaneously.

However while I think the two passes by MM on Bagnaia which resulted in contact were legitimate if not meeting high standards of elegance I don’t think Bagnaia’s responses were. Basically if he does that every time he can’t be passed because whatever else the relativities between the GP23 and GP24 may be you are not passing a GP24 on the straight riding a GP23, or much else, and if his opponent adopts the same approach both crash out every time. I also think this is one thing which is not in MM’s repertoire, as someone said he has not infrequently lost lap battles without taking this approach, and if I am to embellish from my own fan perspective perhaps his version of sportsmanship accepts being passed fair and square.

I read some post race stuff from MM which suggested he recognises his situation, and what eventuated after he got shuffled back on the first lap was not his pre-race plan which was to be in the lead and stay there. As has also been said MM’s current situation politically is not really conducive to mutually crashing out of races in company with the lead factory Ducati rider. Eventually Bagnaia won’t be in a position to continue the tactic either unless he is an absolute runaway championship leader.

Lex, another poster with constantly good takes has said recently MM has fairly routinely done things which raise eyebrows when occasionally perpetrated by others. I would qualify this myself by saying early in his career, the 2013 Jerez last corner pass on Lorenzo not being legitimate as one example, but in his pomp competing for championships imo he was considerably less reckless. It also remains impossible to defend the Willairot incident of course, it can only be said it was definitely not intentional.

He has certainly been on the reckless side of the equation on first laps in years recently passed trying to out ride that pig of a Honda to gain position even if it was his only chance to do so. He was hardly the. only guilty party on first laps however, and decisions by those running the series have contributed to this imo including the sprint race format itself, aero and an approach from RD I can only describe as quirky and differential based on rider identity.

As everyone acknowledges one thing MM doesn’t do is complain about other riders racing him hard, and as MDub says MM’s questionable approach to first laps when riding that crappy Honda in recent years doesn’t necessarily make it anything goes for Bagnaia.
 
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MdubSTYLIE said:
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I give him credit but he does make a lot of bad moves. His first lap was impressive. His last couple laps were impressive. The way he got back in front of Marc could have resulted in a penalty. I have seen in the past a move like the require the rider to give the position back. If it was Binder he most certainly would have been penalized.
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I agree that it very easily could have resulted in a penalty, not only that it could have resulted in both crashing out again.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I have been hard on Marc many times in his past for things he has done. Including last year at Portimão. I'm not sure why people always go to this argument when talking about action when they happen to Marc. Like it justifies what Pecco or any other rider has done. Lets not compare apples to oranges.
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Without reading too much into the comment, Pecco has all but admitted he races Marc differently to any one else. Which is debatable given he doesn't mind a bit of argy bargy when he does it but you could argue it shows a pattern that Pecco hits Marc because it is Marc which can give any form of contact he creates, like Portimao or on the weekend intent. Intent (which likely isn't there, they seem to get on OK) would and should add a layer of additional seriousness to any penalty he would be handed.

FWIW I think Marc would actually be a good teammate. If he was in a position where he couldn't win the championship but his teammate could I do believe that he would do everything in his power to aid his team winning the championship. Unlike someone who battles tooth and nail for position risking their teammates title.
 
p4p1 said:
Without reading too much into the comment, Pecco has all but admitted he races Marc differently to any one else. Which is debatable given he doesn't mind a bit of argy bargy when he does it but you could argue it shows a pattern that Pecco hits Marc because it is Marc which can give any form of contact he creates, like Portimao or on the weekend intent. Intent (which likely isn't there, they seem to get on OK) would and should add a layer of additional seriousness to any penalty he would be handed.

FWIW I think Marc would actually be a good teammate. If he was in a position where he couldn't win the championship but his teammate could I do believe that he would do everything in his power to aid his team winning the championship. Unlike someone who battles tooth and nail for position risking their teammates title.
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Good post.

“When you fight like this, you know there might be some contact. I thought it was smooth and smart,” Bagnaia said.

Smooth and smart are not words that come to mind when talking of contact while racing motorcycles. Bags needs to start his own race league called NASBIKE. He really can't continue this behavior and get away with it. Intent is a good point. I don't think Marc are any rider really intends to hit another rider. He all but admits it here. People who don't like Marc will be ok with this claiming he hit someone there for its ok to race him this way. I believe the only reason Marc didn't attack him back in Jerez was because he wants a gp25 next year. He is already being a good teammate to Pecco. But if this is how Pecco plans to race Marc all year its going to cost him the title.
 
michaelm said:
However while I think the two passes by MM on Bagnaia which resulted in contact were legitimate if not meeting high standards of elegance I don’t think Bagnaia’s responses were. Basically if he does that every time he can’t be passed because whatever else the relativities between the GP23 and GP24 may be you are not passing a GP24 on the straight riding a GP23, or much else, and if his opponent adopts the same approach both crash out every time. I also think this is one thing which is not in MM’s repertoire, as someone said he has not infrequently lost lap battles without taking this approach, and if I am to embellish from my own fan perspective perhaps his version of sportsmanship accepts being passed fair and square.
Click to expand...
This is something I had thought of as well and does need to be pointed out. On a 24 Ducati you could defend positions in the manner Pecco did and has previously and make it almost impossible to be passed. Once or twice is OK but if it becomes Pecco's consistent MO of defending his position then it needs to be looked at seriously.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Good post.

“When you fight like this, you know there might be some contact. I thought it was smooth and smart,” Bagnaia said.

Smooth and smart are not words that come to mind when talking of contact while racing motorcycles. Bags needs to start his own race league called NASBIKE. He really can't continue this behavior and get away with it. Intent is a good point. I don't think Marc are any rider really intends to hit another rider. He all but admits it here. People who don't like Marc will be ok with this claiming he hit someone there for its ok to race him this way. I believe the only reason Marc didn't attack him back in Jerez was because he wants a gp25 next year. He is already being a good teammate to Pecco. But if this is how Pecco plans to race Marc all year its going to cost him the title.
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There is absolutely an imbalance of power when they race each other because Pecco is already signed up for '25. I think the other reasons are that he really wanted to finish the race, he had crashed out of the lead two races in a row and for the first time in a long time he is thinking about the title race towards the end of the year. Get 2nd at Jerez head to Le Mans 32 points down and only 15 points down on Pecco after some really disappointing results is a win.

Behind the scenes we don't know what is being thrown at Marquez as far as offers go, even if his goal is to end up on a factory Ducati both KTM and Aprilia would likely be making enquires and MM would probably take a lesser salary if it meant extra money could be spent on either of their bikes to make them consistently competitive with Ducati. I mention this because looking at the picture for the rest of the year MM may be confident he is going to get more factory input and upgrades from Ducati as a sweetner for signing with them for the next two years. If the red bike isn't where Ducati want MM because they want to retain Martin, a good way of getting MM to Pramac or whoever their #1 satellite team ends up being, is to provide him updates to show they can and will support him in a title effort.

There is still a lot to play out over the season. But Saturday showed IMO that MM is still able to slide and push a bike around a circuit unlike anyone else.
 
michaelm said:
J

You are the soul of reason on this forum imo.

I go both ways on this.

I agree with your recent post about Bagnaia in general and posted something similar on another thread almost simultaneously.

However while I think the two passes by MM on Bagnaia which resulted in contact were legitimate if not meeting high standards of elegance I don’t think Bagnaia’s responses were. Basically if he does that every time he can’t be passed because whatever else the relativities between the GP23 and GP24 may be you are not passing a GP24 on the straight riding a GP23, or much else, and if his opponent adopts the same approach both crash out every time. I also think this is one thing which is not in MM’s repertoire, as someone said he has not infrequently lost lap battles without taking this approach, and if I am to embellish from my own fan perspective perhaps his version of sportsmanship accepts being passed fair and square.

I read some post race stuff from MM which suggested he recognises his situation, and what eventuated after he got shuffled back on the first lap was not his pre-race plan which was to be in the lead and stay there. As has also been said MM’s current situation politically is not really conducive to mutually crashing out of races in company with the lead factory Ducati rider. Eventually Bagnaia won’t be in a position to continue the tactic either unless he is an absolute runaway championship leader.

Lex, another poster with constantly good takes has said recently MM has fairly routinely done things which raise eyebrows when occasionally perpetrated by others. I would qualify this myself by saying early in his career, the 2013 Jerez last corner pass on Lorenzo not being legitimate as one example, but in his pomp competing for championships imo he was considerably less reckless. It also remains impossible to defend the Willairot incident of course, it can only be said it was definitely not intentional.

He has certainly been on the reckless side of the equation on first laps in years recently passed trying to out ride that pig of a Honda to gain position even if it was his only chance to do so. He was hardly the. only guilty party on first laps however, and decisions by those running the series have contributed to this imo including the sprint race format itself, aero and an approach from RD I can only describe as quirky and differential based on rider identity.

As everyone acknowledges one thing MM doesn’t do is complain about other riders racing him hard, and as MDub says MM’s questionable approach to first laps when riding that crappy Honda in recent years doesn’t necessarily make it anything goes for Bagnaia.
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Lost last lap battles
 
Bern1 said:
I get the frustration but it’s an internet forum.



I feel the same way most of the time. I was all hot under the collar about Sepang 2015 but that was….8 years ago. My memory is now such that I vaguely remember what happened. Fortunately Michaelm reminds us all once in a while. I like reading his posts about this because he goes to the trouble of going back and digging the stuff up!
Click to expand...
I formed a view at the time which hasn’t ever really seen refuted, in my own opinion anyway, and remain annoyed at how Stoner and Lorenzo were treated during their careers, including Lorenzo for actually winning the 2015 championship. I continue to respond when prompted to opposing narratives presented as fact which I consider false about the 2015 season, partly because I like arguing. I try now not to do go back to it at this remove in time unless prompted but perhaps I should stop entirely because it annoys good and genuine posters like Mick D and Misfit who have a different opinion.

MM of course can look after himself.
 
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michaelm said:
I formed a view at the time which hasn’t ever really seen refuted, in my own opinion anyway, and remain annoyed at how Stoner and Lorenzo were treated during their careers, including Lorenzo for actually winning the 2015 championship. I continue to respond when prompted to opposing narratives presented as fact which I consider false about the 2015 season, partly because I like arguing. I try now not to do go back to it at this remove in time unless prompted but perhaps I should stop entirely because it annoys good and genuine posters like Mick D and Misfit who have a different opinion.

MM of course can look after himself.
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been refuted and not to go back
 
Valentino Rossi himself has seen fit to comment on the race.

Not too controversial actually, same as MM had already said, if you don’t successfully make the pass your tyres go off making a second pass more difficult.
 

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