2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

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warthog1 said:
Marc has only won 3 times at Jerez in MotoGP.
It aint one of his strongest tracks.

With respect to having an "idol", that is an incorrect word for me. It is your word not mine.
I have been watching since the 80s. I have been able to watch and appreciate the talent and skills of a number of riders above others.
Marc stands above them all. He is not my "idol" but his competetive drive and skill on a bike stands above everybody else I've seen. He can stuff a motorcycle into a corner well past the ability of the front tyre to hold that motorcycle up but jam himself into the tarmac with enough force and do it quickly enough to make the damn thing come out the other side. The sheer number of times he has done this places him above everyone else as a motorcycle racer for me.
The power slides, hard braking, throwing the motorcycle around he also manages as well as others. Dancing on the edge of front tyre traction and over it, he can do better than everyone else. Does it pretty damn well with both ends of the bike if you look at his speed on a wet or drying track too.

I am afraid if you can't recognise and appreciated the sublime skill he has so often displayed you either don't watch, or don't watch with an open mind.
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I don't see this as anything special as most top riders can do it. Marc is not faster than Bagnaia, for example. The difference between them is that Marc risks a lot more. So much so that all his "skills" you brought up here ended up making him the rider that crashes the most, by far, got his arm destroyed, 3 or 4 surgeries, got out of action for more than 1 year and almost finish his carrer. Indeed, Dovi advised him one day, that there is no miracle in his actions and one day he would broke himself down. Said and done. Was it worth it? You can argue he do this or that but reality tells me he crashes proportionally with the pace he tries to run and collects 0 points, so no, Marc can't do things beyond physics without consequences. There is no magic here. I can admire him (and indeed I do) by his obstination and risks took, but I won't close my eyes and pretend he has been doing incredible things beyond the capacity of any other rider. No, he has not. Then there is no "if marc didn't crash he should have leading the table and bla bla", truth is, he crashed and that's it. Choices made. I don't put Stoner ahead of him because of lap times or speed alone, but because of understading how to imediatelly extract the most out of a machine. As I said, most top riders today knows how to be blistering fast. They just need to feel comfortable. Take Maverick as an example. There are days where he is unbeatable, no matter what. And that is the case with many other riders. The difference is that they accept they're not comfortable enough to push until the limit, but Marc does not. The result? He does some fast laps, make his show, the crowd applaud, and then he crashes.
 
gui22a said:
I don't like the idea of being a fan just because sometimes it makes us irrationaly defend something or someone, or looking for excuses in order to validade our point of view.
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Pure sophistry. Sounds like the logic of someone who has spent years being brainwashed in a Chinese re-eduction camp. You clearly are a fan of Rossi, and even, for the sake of argument, lets say you are not a fan of Rossi, the passion with which you pursue your hatred of Marquez (or whoever was racing against Rossi at the time) is every bit as irrational as the high admiration of others to which you are purportedly so adverse.
 
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Keshav said:
Putting words in the mouths of others and telling them what their values are, are what trolls do. As Stylie so aptly put it, gaslighting. It's how they waste your time explaining away .... you never said.
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I was not refering to anyone in specific. I just said I find it bizarre people being fans or having idols, not that you guys have idols in racing or whatever. I just took the ocasion to say that.
 
gui22a said:
I don't see this as anything special as most top riders can do it. Marc is not faster than Bagnaia, for example. The difference between them is that Marc risks a lot more. So much so that all his "skills" you brought up here ended up making him the rider that crashes the most, by far, got his arm destroyed, 3 or 4 surgeries, got out of action for more than 1 year and almost finish his carrer. Indeed, Dovi advised him one day, that there is no miracle in his actions and one day he would broke himself down. Said and done. Was it worth it? You can argue he do this or that but reality tells me he crashes proportionally with the pace he tries to run and collects 0 points, so no, Marc can't do things beyond physics without consequences. There is no magic here. I can admire him (and indeed I do) by his obstination and risks took, but I won't close my eyes and pretend he has been doing incredible things beyond the capacity of any other rider. No, he has not. Then there is no "if marc didn't crash he should have leading the table and bla bla", truth is, he crashed and that's it. Choices made. I don't put Stoner ahead of him because of lap times or speed alone, but because of understading how to imediatelly extract the most out of a machine. As I said, most top riders today knows how to be blistering fast. They just need to feel comfortable. Take Maverick as an example. There are days where he is unbeatable, no matter what. And that is the case with many other riders. The difference is that they accept they're not comfortable enough to push until the limit, but Marc does not. The result? He does some fast laps, make his show, the crowd applaud, and then he crashes.
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Until this season Marc hasn't been on a bike that is anywhere near competitive against Pecco. He was outperforming others on the honda by miles. He was doing things that could not be done on that bike but with consequences. Marc doesn't do anything magical or defy physics you are right but he does things other riders cannot. I contribute his abilities to extraordinary hand eye coordination and reflexes. He's a ....... mongoose.
 
Keshav said:
Pure sophistry. Sounds like the words of someone who has spent years in a re-eduction camp. You clearly are a fan of Rossi, and even, for the sake of argument, lets say you are not a fan of Rossi, the passion with which you pursue your hatred of Marquez (or whoever was racing against Rossi at the time) is every bit as irrational as the high admiration of others to which you are purportedly so adverse.
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hahahaha .... you Keshav!! Your need to tell how things are is insane. I, a fan of Rossi! ahahahahaha.

God knows how much I rooted for any rider against Rossi. As I've said many times, I'm always against the guy that is winning too much.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Until this season Marc hasn't been on a bike that is anywhere near competitive against Pecco. He was outperforming others on the honda by miles. He was doing things that could not be done on that bike but with consequences. Marc doesn't do anything magical or defy physics you are right but he does things other riders cannot. I contribute his abilities to extraordinary hand eye coordination and reflexes. He's a ....... mongoose.
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That's true for the capacity of taking risks. No other rider can risk that much or fall that much. lol.
 
gui22a said:
I don't see this as anything special as most top riders can do it. Marc is not faster than Bagnaia, for example. The difference between them is that Marc risks a lot more. So much so that all his "skills" you brought up here ended up making him the rider that crashes the most, by far, got his arm destroyed, 3 or 4 surgeries, got out of action for more than 1 year and almost finish his carrer. Indeed, Dovi advised him one day, that there is no miracle in his actions and one day he would broke himself down. Said and done. Was it worth it? You can argue he do this or that but reality tells me he crashes proportionally with the pace he tries to run and collects 0 points, so no, Marc can't do things beyond physics without consequences. There is no magic here. I can admire him (and indeed I do) by his obstination and risks took, but I won't close my eyes and pretend he has been doing incredible things beyond the capacity of any other rider. No, he didn't. Then there is no "if marc didn't crash he should have leading the table and bla bla", truth is, he crashed and that's it. Choices made. I don't put Stoner ahead of him because of lap times or speed alone, but because of understading how to imediatelly extract the most out of a machine. As I said, most top riders today knows how to be blistering fast. They just need to feel comfortable. Take Maverick as an example. There are days where he is unbeatable, no matter what. And that is the case with many other riders. The difference is that they accept they're not comfortable enough to push until the limit, but Marc does not. The result? He does some fast laps, make his show, the crowd applaud, and then he crashes.
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You dont watch much then.
For arguments sake thow up a youtube highlight reel of your other riders all making multiple front end saves. I mean they all do it. Should be there on your first click. ;)
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
Cal Crutchlow and I have something in common. I like to collect rocks and he likes to collect gravel in his leathers.
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I bet you're so excited at his 3 wildcards this yr!
michaelm said:
He is perhaps too good as Lex says, while all his aero stuff undoubtedly works I hate it.
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I hate it too, but just like riders, we gotta respect the man.
mikesbytes said:
Perhaps Bagnaia was braking slightly before the point where the max speed was taken
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This is a common fault with 'top speed traps'. In the Sepang test, Quartararo was fastest by some margin on the Yamaha IIRC, but then it was discovered he was the only one braking AFTER the speed trap.
p4p1 said:
Bezz had made his pass safely, without contact, Pecco undercuting him may have caused contact anyway (he has no issue doing that) but my understanding is that once he has made the pass the onus is on the riders behind him. Binder decided to undercut two riders who were clearly going to come back to the apex so I am not sure what his thoughts were.
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I can see that argument too. I guess, at the end of the day it's simply a case of 3 into 1 doesn't go.
gui22a said:
Marc is not faster than Bagnaia, for example.
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Not only do I completely disagree with this statement, but the facts also show it is false too.

Bagnaia has been beaten to race wins by satelltie Ducati riders like Enea Bastiannini, Marco Bezzachi and even Johann Zarco. He has also been beaten to race wins by his team mates (Jack Miller and Enea Bastiannini) along with a fellow factory rider in Jorge Martin.

When, since 2017, has Marquez been beaten by a team mate? He has also never lost a head to head race with a satellite Honda that I recall.

Bagnaia narrowly won in Jerez on Sunday, 0.374s ahead of Marquez on a yr old bike. The last head to head they had was 2021 when Marquez was on a flailing Honda (for perspective, the next Honda was Taka in 10th, and Marc's team mate, Pol Espargaro, finished 13th, 19 seconds behind Marquez).

Lets put Bagnaia and Marquez as team mates in the factory Ducati team and we can answer this once and for all :)
 
No one here is claiming there is half a second between the GP23 and GP24. But it is a better bike. They would not be running it if it were not so. I also add, again, that Marc is by far outperforming the other GP23 riders.

Interesting to note that in that article, it claims that Marc is getting updates soon.
 
#22 said:
I also add, again, that Marc is by far outperforming the other GP23 riders.

Interesting to note that in that article, it claims that Marc is getting updates soon.
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Amen brother, I believe Marc has a shot at winning it all this year, we shall see.
 
#22 said:
No one here is claiming there is half a second between the GP23 and GP24. But it is a better bike. They would not be running it if it were not so. I also add, again, that Marc is by far outperforming the other GP23 riders.

Interesting to note that in that article, it claims that Marc is getting updates soon.
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A strange read, and doesn’t help guitta’s argument. Doubtless what I read is not a perfect translation into English which probably doesn’t help, but it reads to me like a fan piece from a somewhat confused Bagnaia fan. It includes a straw man, as you say when has anyone claimed the GP 24 was a half a second a lap quicker ?. And why would a bike which was better as he actually said it was. ( it would be rather a knock on his efforts over the. course of the development of the bike if it wasn’t,) transform into not being better in the last 5 laps of a race ?. And why it would be disappointing to him for MM to get upgrades after 3 races because Di Giannantonio didn’t last year makes even less sense. Sounds like a fan of existing Italian Ducati riders to me, and fair enough I guess, but not of great relevance to what we have been discussing on here.
 
I agree. Ducati get to choose who they give updates or not. Marquez has been clearly the standout rider on the GP23, so it's only fair that he gets updates. Diggia was underwhelming for most of last year and was widely expected to be out of MotoGP altogether until he was given a VR46 seat because they had no one else to fill it, so why would he get updates?

It would be like Morbidelli getting updates before Martin at Pramac.
 
Imagine if Ducati had stuck with the GP21 all these years, they would be lapping the entire field by 30 seconds with all that cumulative knowledge of it! sucks that the Ducati engineers are stupid and they keep renewing their bike every year, poor Pecco has to ride gimped every year.
 

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