2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

#22 said:

My one regret is he saved that first crash at Jerez 2020. I think he would have certainly won the 2020 and 2021 titles without that second crash....

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#22 said:

I can see Dorna pushing in the name of 'making the championship more interesting', but not Rossi. Unless I read your statement incorrectly. I did find this interview with the then Michelin Competition Director, in which he states:


https://www.eurosport.com/moto/rossi-to-use-bridgestones_sto1352109/story.shtml


Interestingly, the aboive article does support some of your statement.



So maybe Rossi knew through the GPC that Dorna were likely to introduce a one tyre rule, and tried to get in before everyone else? Either way, Ducati were screwed for over 5 years by the decision, despite trying to switch to Michelins. Reading the article below, they tried to switch, and Michelin tried courting Gresini (Honda at the time) along with Suzuki, according to Krop.

Ducati To Switch To Michelin - Single Tire Proposal To Be Scrapped? | MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks

As always, there is one story, and another. Then somewhere in between, is the truth.

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JPSLotus said:

To the Marc haters...

Yes I admit to being a huge fan of Marc. He's the first racer since the late Ayrton Senna that captured my imagination unlike any other. Win or lose, Marc is simply spectacular on a GP bike. I said to myself back in 2016, enjoy every moment you see of Marc because you will never see this level of talent in GP ever again. I really enjoy watching Acosta, but he's not as fast as Marc is. I fully expect him to be a world champion one day regardless. I think way back to 2002 when I was watching Valentino, and I thought he was good V5 Honda or not. But Marc is why I get up at 4AM to watch GP racing. You never know what he is going to do. He is absolutely sensational to watch whether it's sliding the bike through corners, or taking time gap deficits and closing them up within a few laps. His 2019 season in my opinion is the single greatest GP season ever accomplished. He single-handedly won the world title and constructor's championship. No one else has ever accomplished that feat over the length of a season that existed in 2019. Hating on him over some ridiculous conspiracy theory that was propagated by VR when he saw his precious 10th title slipping away is absolute lunacy. My only real regret with Marc is we will never know what he could have done in the 500cc World Championship. We talk about Freddie, Eddie, Kevin, Wayne, and Mick, but could you imagine Marc mixing it up with them on the 2 strokes? That to me would have been heaven. But remembering the battles of that era, Marc is cut from that mold, in particular the Doohan mold. He's absolutely relentless, and never gives up. That alone is why I place him above almost everyone. Even if he never wins another title, I won't lose any sleep over it because watching him do what he did is the kind of stuff I would tell my grandkids about.

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mylexicon said:

The issue with quotes and articles of the day is that we don't know the context or progression of events. Of course, Michelin didn't want Rossi to depart. It's not surprising that Rossi wanted to depart. The issue is how it finally happened.

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mylexicon said:

For Michelin to claim that riders choose the tires is a bit suspect. The manufacturer is integral in tire brand selection. Yamaha must have been pushing to some degree.

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mylexicon said:

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Yamaha were initially against switching, then perhaps the reality of the tire situation was revealed, and they felt compelled to hedge. Maybe they were working on a deal to get Tech 3 to Bridgestones (like Gresini), and that's when Rossi started stomping his feet.

I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Bridgestone were initially against working with Rossi, since they publicly stated that he was their competitive benchmark. Upon learning that the GPC was going to force through regulations Bridgestone didn't support, perhaps they changed their mind.

15 years ago, the official non-story was obviously bunk, and I believed Rossi/Dorna forced the issue. While they were surely pushing for Bridgestone tires, and can also see Bridgestone neutering their opponent out of fear that the tire negotiations were going to derail their GP program only 1 season after they defeated Michelin.

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gui22a said:

Casey was a bigger talent than Marc, I have 0 doubt about that. I'm not talking numbers, as Senna was a bigger talent than Schumi but numbers don't say it. I miss Casey a lot. I wouldn't miss Marc when he retires but I absolute don't hate him, I like to see him on track, but he is not as talented as you guys fan of him are trying to print. Up until now, no rider on planet earth is more talented than Casey. Period. No other rider has proven so far he can climb on any bike and be imediately at the top and so consistent, no matter what. I also doubted MM would do this on the Duc.

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gui22a said:

In fact, both Bagnaia and Martin are, today, a bit faster than him. But you are not ready to discuss this. Anyway, MM failed many times to beat the likes of Dovizioso on a 1 x 1 battle as he failed with Jorge and Rossi too. He was beaten every single time he met a mediocre rider like Dovizioso fighting for the win. So yesterday results just tell us what we already know, that Marc is not that great at 1 x 1 battles as was Rossi (and believe me, I really don't sympathize with Rossi although I totally respect him for what he has made for MotoGP and all the rivalry he brought).

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gui22a said:

What Marc Marquez did was very great, the youngest champion, and all that stuff, 2014 was record breaking, bla bla, but he was riding the best bike on the grid, best technologies, and that year Yamaha struggled to compete at the same level. There was no Ducati besides a fridge painted in red, there was no other brands than Yamaha to offer a bit of competition.

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gui22a said:

Marc's fans are pumped by this round results, I understand that, but it's Jerez, his home and he has always been very fast in Jerez. Let the season go. He will fight for podiums, will eventually win, can fight for the title, but this is nothing special as other riders are already doing that.

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gui22a said:

I find it bizarre men that are more than 25 years old having an idol, being a fan of "somebody". I'm not a fan of nobody. I actually don't care for riders, I don't give a .... for them. They don't even know I exist, so why would I care with'em or making them my idol? And that is the best part cause this aproach really makes me free to observe and have my say without being biased towards nobody. I can just thrown a look at the grid, watch what is happening and be faithfull with what my eyes are witnessing.

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gui22a said:

I find it bizarre men that are more than 25 years old having an idol, being a fan of "somebody". I'm not a fan of nobody. I actually don't care for riders, I don't give a .... for them. They don't even know I exist, so why would I care with'em or making them my idol? And that is the best part cause this aproach really makes me free to observe and have my say without being biased towards nobody. I can just thrown a look at the grid, watch what is happening and be faithfull with what my eyes are witnessing.

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gui22a said:

Casey was a bigger talent than Marc, I have 0 doubt about that. I'm not talking numbers, as Senna was a bigger talent than Schumi but numbers don't say it. I miss Casey a lot. I wouldn't miss Marc when he retires but I absolute don't hate him, I like to see him on track, but he is not as talented as you guys fan of him are trying to print. Up until now, no rider on planet earth is more talented than Casey. Period. No other rider has proven so far he can climb on any bike and be imediately at the top and so consistent, no matter what. I also doubted MM would do this on the Duc.

In fact, both Bagnaia and Martin are, today, a bit faster than him. But you are not ready to discuss this. Anyway, MM failed many times to beat the likes of Dovizioso on a 1 x 1 battle as he failed with Jorge and Rossi too. He was beaten every single time he met a mediocre rider like Dovizioso fighting for the win. So yesterday results just tell us what we already know, that Marc is not that great at 1 x 1 battles as was Rossi (and believe me, I really don't sympathize with Rossi although I totally respect him for what he has made for MotoGP and all the rivalry he brought). What Marc Marquez did was very great, the youngest champion, and all that stuff, 2014 was record breaking, bla bla, but he was riding the best bike on the grid, best technologies, and that year Yamaha struggled to compete at the same level. There was no Ducati besides a fridge painted in red, there was no other brands than Yamaha to offer a bit of competition.

Marc's fans are pumped by this round results, I understand that, but it's Jerez, his home and he has always been very fast in Jerez. Let the season go. He will fight for podiums, will eventually win, can fight for the title, but this is nothing special as other riders are already doing that.

I find it bizarre men that are more than 25 years old having an idol, being a fan of "somebody". I'm not a fan of nobody. I actually don't care for riders, I don't give a .... for them. They don't even know I exist, so why would I care with'em or making them my idol? And that is the best part cause this aproach really makes me free to observe and have my say without being biased towards nobody. I can just thrown a look at the grid, watch what is happening and be faithfull with what my eyes are witnessing.

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JPSLotus said:

Why do you find it hard to believe we can be a huge fan of supreme talent?

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#22 said:

Now if you wanna talk about a fan. Mdub is in love with Cal Crutchlow

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gui22a said:

Casey was a bigger talent than Marc, I have 0 doubt about that. I'm not talking numbers, as Senna was a bigger talent than Schumi but numbers don't say it. I miss Casey a lot. I wouldn't miss Marc when he retires but I absolute don't hate him, I like to see him on track, but he is not as talented as you guys fan of him are trying to print. Up until now, no rider on planet earth is more talented than Casey. Period. No other rider has proven so far he can climb on any bike and be imediately at the top and so consistent, no matter what. I also doubted MM would do this on the Duc.

In fact, both Bagnaia and Martin are, today, a bit faster than him. But you are not ready to discuss this. Anyway, MM failed many times to beat the likes of Dovizioso on a 1 x 1 battle as he failed with Jorge and Rossi too. He was beaten every single time he met a mediocre rider like Dovizioso fighting for the win. So yesterday results just tell us what we already know, that Marc is not that great at 1 x 1 battles as was Rossi (and believe me, I really don't sympathize with Rossi although I totally respect him for what he has made for MotoGP and all the rivalry he brought). What Marc Marquez did was very great, the youngest champion, and all that stuff, 2014 was record breaking, bla bla, but he was riding the best bike on the grid, best technologies, and that year Yamaha struggled to compete at the same level. There was no Ducati besides a fridge painted in red, there was no other brands than Yamaha to offer a bit of competition.

Marc's fans are pumped by this round results, I understand that, but it's Jerez, his home and he has always been very fast in Jerez. Let the season go. He will fight for podiums, will eventually win, can fight for the title, but this is nothing special as other riders are already doing that.

I find it bizarre men that are more than 25 years old having an idol, being a fan of "somebody". I'm not a fan of nobody. I actually don't care for riders, I don't give a .... for them. They don't even know I exist, so why would I care with'em or making them my idol? And that is the best part cause this aproach really makes me free to observe and have my say without being biased towards nobody. I can just thrown a look at the grid, watch what is happening and be faithfull with what my eyes are witnessing.

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JPSLotus said:

From what I can gather, Gigi absolutely adores Marc.

I think he wants Marc on the factory Ducati because that gives the team the best opportunity to win every single GP in the season. I don't think he will be too concerned by what Pecco thinks about it. Or Jorge Martin for that matter. I think Gigi wants a rider who shows off the very best of what he has designed because even though I'm not a fan of GP Aero, Gigi is incredible when it comes to designing a GP bike. It still blows my mind how he was able to build a platform around the Desmo engine that now works everywhere. Kudos to him for figuring out how to make all of this work within the technical regulations.

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mmnumaone said:

Not really. I think if he didn't crash in Jerez 2020..., let's say he finished that race 2nd or 3rd. There is no way of knowing how next races would pan out. Austria 2020 is example I will use, where there was a gap between Rossi and rider infront, Marc could have been in that gap when a bike of Morbidelli/Zarco almost crashed/killed Rossi.

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p4p1 said:

The thing I really like about Gigi's approach is he knew there were no overnight miracle solutions. It was a step by step evolution that he has kept up once he built the grids dominant bike. Not to say that the change under Gigi wasn't still fairly quick, Ducati had the best bike on the grid by 17 or 18 but it was clearly done bit by bit so the team would know what changes were working and what weren't. Obviously an ingenious idea that has impacted the GP for the worst with using aero but it was within the rules and he used it to his advantage.
Gigi's (and any engineer's) job is to take the results out of the riders hands, and it appears that he has been able to do that. Honda on the other hand has the MO of building a bike that in theory is the fastest but needs otherworldly talent to ride it fast.

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PRS717 said:

Just for ..... and giggles, would Qatar be a good example of the GP24 in its top setting? If so, the GP24 is 10 kph (6 mph) faster than..................................the GP24 and race winning bike. At COTA the GP 24 and RC 16 both topped out at 350.6.

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JPSLotus said:

I do agree with Nakamoto-san's assessment that the difference between Marc and Casey was that Casey was more naturally gifted, but Marc had better reflexes. I think in the context of a grand prix race at full distance, reflexes are perhaps more valuable. But to me there is no real clear winner. The negatives to me about Casey never had anything to do with his ability but his quitting in his absolute prime. I had this conversation in text with the late JKD some years back, and he said his real problem with Casey was how after he came back from the Indy 2012 crash he ...... off till Phillip Island rolled around and then decided to demolish the field then. Stoner's motivation or lack thereof was my only real issue with Casey at times. Marc enjoys every minute of this. Casey wanted nothing more than to ride a motorcycle to the limit of it's design and disappear...and he was ....... good at it.

Bagnaia and Martin are on the newest bikes and Marc has already proven to be faster than both only several races into his Ducati tenure.

As I said about Brad Binder, even though I may not think highly of their future or what have you, to ride at this level, you have to be one of the fastest riders on the planet. Andrea Dovizioso while never winning a world championship was incredibly fast on his day. And frankly he rode the races of his life against MM. So MM didn't win those last lap battles, so what? Marc still won the championship when everything was all said and done.

Why do you find it hard to believe we can be a huge fan of supreme talent?

As you get older, you begin to appreciate seeing these things. No different from the generation that worshipped Jimmy Clark or the late Barry Sheene. The machines are fantastic to look at, but they mean nothing without the human riders on them pushing them to their limits. That is the beauty of motorcycle racing...watching supreme talent seemingly bend the capabilities of the machine to their own needs as Pecco did on that record setting lap, or as Marc did through the left-handers. No Ducati rider can go through left corners faster than MM. I find that spectacular.

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#22 said:

I'd say Bezz was at fault. He and Binder were scrappy for the entire lap before, and he went wide trying to pass Bagnaia. He then cut back without taking into account that Binder nor Bagnaia would not be able to see him.

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michaelm said:

I am a Stoner tragic, but he didn’t have the ferocious will to win that MM and Doohan, and Rossi for that matter, had and which is a prerequisite for winning high multiple numbers of titles.

I am not sure Nakomoto would have compared Stoner and MM in the same way after MM won 4 more titles for Honda to be honest, but another thing relevant to Casey’s riding that he said was “When he is happy, he is so fast”. He also assessed Casey’s character as such that he was the type of bloke he would be happy for his daughter to marry, rather at odds with the then prevalent assessment of his character, particularly by the Valeban.

Imo Casey road as exceptionally and as far beyond normal human limits as anyone including MM ever did in the two great fully focussed years when he had the dominant title wins, and also when he rode his beloved PI track in any year. I could have watched him ride laps around PI on his own almost indefinitely, it was a spectacle akin to watching MM.

I don’t disagree with what you and others including MDub have said about him in general though. He was pretty much participating in a different sport, both metaphorically in his title winning seasons as Ben Spies pretty much said,, but also over his entire career given he was basically racing himself, the bike and the circuit with other riders an unwelcome distraction. He also had to wind himself up extremely tight to ride at his peak, something he definitely didn’t enjoy doing, as he didn’t the off track attention he got and the whole circus surrounding the sport. Dovi said he was a totally different person as a test rider for Ducati than he was as a team mate at Honda in 2011. There were also extenuating circumstances for him not liking dicing when he was racing on the Ducati, as Valentino and JB found out when Valentino got on that bike which wouldn’t turn back then his main method of getting the thing through a corner involved almost crashing it in every corner.

To venture into cod psychology myself, along with having read stuff not in the international press which I read in the local Australian press, and having read his biography imo he proved everything he wanted to prove to the Valeban, Rossi and everyone else by winning the 2011 title while Valentino floundered badly on the Ducati simultaneously, that he wasn’t a one hit wonder etc, but proving stuff to other people was no longer sufficient motivation for him to continue, along with a perhaps not entirely paranoid view that Dorna were out to thwart/stop him, along with Honda while he was an HRC rider. He was never going to have a career into his 30s because of the physical risks of his riding style anyway, again imo.

He should have won the 2012 title and retired as a 3 time title winner even imo though, despite bike and tyre interventions by Dorna he still had the equipment to win but insufficient focus imo, particularly the last lap crash when he thought he could pass Dani Pedrosa at will but then it sprinkled with rain. He might have crashed and injured himself as he did in a subsequent race regardless though, what he said about the Indy track pre-race was probably correct, and he was always on the verge of a crash in any case.

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warthog1 said:

Marc has only won 3 times at Jerez in MotoGP.
It aint one of his strongest tracks.

With respect to having an "idol", that is an incorrect word for me. It is your word not mine.
I have been watching since the 80s. I have been able to watch and appreciate the talent and skills of a number of riders above others.
Marc stands above them all. He is not my "idol" but his competetive drive and skill on a bike stands above everybody else I've seen. He can stuff a motorcycle into a corner well past the ability of the front tyre to hold that motorcycle up but jam himself into the tarmac with enough force and do it quickly enough to make the damn thing come out the other side. The sheer number of times he has done this places him above everyone else as a motorcycle racer for me.
The power slides, hard braking, throwing the motorcycle around he also manages as well as others. Dancing on the edge of front tyre traction and over it, he can do better than everyone else. Does it pretty damn well with both ends of the bike if you look at his speed on a wet or drying track too.

I am afraid if you can't recognise and appreciated the sublime skill he has so often displayed you either don't watch, or don't watch with an open mind.

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