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2024 MotoGP Round 6: Gran Premi Monster Energy de Catalunya - Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya

Sure it's a better machine overall. The question is: how much better is it? Does that advantage applies at every track, every sector? And how much is both Pecco and Martin doing a difference (or not at all)?

We don't know.
Sure, I am certainly not claiming MM would have won every race had he been on a GP24. I recall Max Biaggi being of the belief he just needed to be on Valentino’s bike to beat him, but things didn’t quite work out that way. Bastianini who imo is very good hasn’t really matched Bagnaia and Martin on a GP24. We don’t know whether MM could get what Bagnaia and Martin can out of a GP24, which might well have been designed with Bagnaia in particular in mind, maybe the GP23 just happens to suit MM etc. There certainly seems to be reasonable evidence it takes a good rider to get the most out of a GP23 from both last season and this season.
 
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Sure, I am certainly not claiming MM would have won every race had he been on a GP 24. I recall Max Biaggi being off the belief he just needed to be on Valentino’s bike to beat him, but things didn’t quite work out that way. Bastianini who imo is really good hasn’t really matched Bagnaia and Martin on a GP24. We don’t know whether MM could get what Bagnaia and Martin can out of a GP24, which might well have been designed with Bagnaia in mind, maybe the GP23 just happens to suit MM etc. There certainly seems to be reasonable evidence it takes a good rider to get the most out of a GP23 from both last season and this season.
You nailed it. You absolutely got my point. It takes a bit of will to do so, I'm sorry for Keshav not having the patience.
 
I'd say how well the gp22 stacked up against the 23 is a good sign of that. The 22 was able to compete with the 23 every round despite the continuous upgrades to the 23 last year. I feel the 24 is going to be the better bike every round by a long shot. No riders on the 23 that were on the 22 last year are getting close to the results in qualifying or the race that they were getting last year. The 24 seems to have the best qualities of the 22 and the aero upgrades developed 23 on to this year. Only one rider is getting the best out of the 23 this year. The 23 is a dog compared to the last few versions of the desmo.
In the hands of Pecco the GP23 started really well, I mean the "version 1" (without upgrades) even Zarco took some podiuns and 2nd places. It's true Bezechi did well with the GP22, more than with the GP23, as well as Alex, but it could be a question of riding style. So we have the following for the "version 1" (the bike MM is riding now)

Wins:

GP23
GP22
GP23
GP22
GP23
GP23

4 out of 6. I heard MM has got an upgrade for the GP23 already. Does somenoe knows if is that true?
 
In the hands of Pecco the GP23 started really well, I mean the "version 1" (without upgrades) even Zarco took some podiuns and 2nd places. It's true Bezechi did well with the GP22, more than with the GP23, as well as Alex, but it could be a question of riding style. So we have the following for the "version 1" (the bike MM is riding now)

Wins:

GP23
GP22
GP23
GP22
GP23
GP23

4 out of 6. I heard MM has got an upgrade for the GP23 already. Does somenoe knows if is that true?
4 out of 6 with the riders who should win 6 out of 6 times on equal bikes. Pecco, Martin, Enea, and Zarco are much better riders than Bez, A. Marq, Marini, and Digi. The proof is how Bez, Digi, and A. Marq are nowhere near as competitive this season on the 23.
 
I get the feeling that no one really wants to let Pedro get too far out front lest he might actually get comfortable and win the race. Guys are racing him much harder than in the lower classes, and I think some of that is to let him know it won't be simply a cakewalk to have success.

This may be true but at Catalunya, Martin needed to beat Pecco, not Pedro. Good as Pedro is showing himself to be, he's not a serious threat for the championship..................this year.
 
On some level, my thoughts are that one is fighting for the championship, the other is not. As brothers they seem to be very close and there does not seem to much, if any envy or resentment on Alex's side, so I wouldn't be surprised if Alex was more than willing to try and give Marc a tow to help him qualify better.
Agreed. Toprak and Locatelli helped each other a lot when Toprack was with Yamaha. They’d take turns leading the other.
 
Call me crazy but I think we really are seeing a much more mature Marquez. Less willful - but every bit as self-confident.
Whilst I don’t disagree with this, I’ll admit I was on the edge of my seat after Marc passed Aleix and it was clear Marc’s tire was gone. I was expecting more fight from Aleix though.
 
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Because MM is just better on low-grip situations compared to the guys he out-paced. Just check how fast he is when there is rain or the track has some wet. Like another mate here correctly pointed out, he chose the soft rear because he knew the track had poor grip and therefore would not wear out the rubber too fast. Also, when the tire drops he can make a difference.
Nope! He stated his choice of the soft, was for purposes of more immediate tractability at the beginning of the race, in order to best make up for his far-back grid spot, giving him a small advantage as the tires are said not to come to full grip for the first 2 or three laps, NOT because it would be better for the abrasive surface. Soft tires do not last longer on abrasive surfaces, at least not in a world where the laws of physics are applicable.
 
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This may be true but at Catalunya, Martin needed to beat Pecco, not Pedro. Good as Pedro is showing himself to be, he's not a serious threat for the championship..................this year.

It's less about him being a contender and more about him being a looming threat. These guys will protect their turf at any cost if possible.

Look at FQ, he probably wins a race in 2019 if not for MM. While MM was under no threat in the points race, it was more about stamping his authority onto who he at that time thought was his greatest threat to his future titles. I believe that is what led him to ride the way he did after that first off at Jerez 2020. Till the 2nd crash that changed everything, he was riding at a level I have never seen from any GP rider in my life. He carved his way through the entire field like they were standing still. I believe Herve Poncharal said it was the greatest ride he ever saw till fate intervened. But I think also that's what the Le Mans overtake on Pecco was about partially. He's figuring out where the weaknesses are now, for later. He's much too professional to ever say anything like it openly, but I believe if you were to get a honest response from him, it was also about stamping that authority on the double world champion. He knows Pecco can be rattled now.
 
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MM haters have been really quiet lately. They must be busy watching replays of races between 2001-09.

They have nothing left to say I noticed. Their idol couldn't even ride the Ducati this well. Now I admit its a far different bike than it was in Valentino's day, but I actually have no qualms saying that I believe Marc could have won on any iteration of the 800cc Ducati he rode.
 
It's less about him being a contender and more about him being a looming threat. These guys will protect their turf at any cost if possible.

Look at FQ, he probably wins a race in 2019 if not for MM. While MM was under no threat in the points race, it was more about stamping his authority onto who he at that time thought was his greatest threat to his future titles. I believe that is what led him to ride the way he did after that first off at Jerez 2020. Till the 2nd crash that changed everything, he was riding at a level I have never seen from any GP rider in my life. He carved his way through the entire field like they were standing still. I believe Herve Poncharal said it was the greatest ride he ever saw till fate intervened. But I think also that's what the Le Mans overtake on Pecco was about partially. He's figuring out where the weaknesses are now, for later. He's much too professional to ever say anything like it openly, but I believe if you were to get a honest response from him, it was also about stamping that authority on the double world champion. He knows Pecco can be rattled now.
The crash obviously soured it but up until that point it was something I hadn't seen before in my admittedly short time in watching the GP.
I remember in Argentina, the race where he whacked into Rossi and got a ride through, Petrucci saying before the race that Marquez was embarrassing the entire field with how much quicker he was than them in the mixed conditions.

I agree on the other stuff. Marc keeps his cards very close to his chest. I remember a rider (it may have been Crutchlow) saying something along the lines of Marc did it on purpose to mess with him, for Marc it is just a bit of fun but for everyone else it would rattle them, after Marc have someone a little nudge just to mess with them.
 
Fabio D. finished 5th last weekend, passed a number of people to get there, in the top 10 in points, sounds competitive to me !
He didn't say competitive, he said 'The proof is how Bez, Digi, and A. Marq are nowhere near as competitive this season on the 23.'
6 races in last year, Bezz had taken two wins, Alex Marquez had been on the podium, and well Digia wasn't doing much at that point and is doing better now.
 
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Fabio D. finished 5th last weekend, passed a number of people to get there, in the top 10 in points, sounds competitive to me !
I agree, he is starting to look fairly good. The GP23 seems to have a learning curve, and did even for MM this year, and possibly for Bagnaia and Martin last year, both had a few dnfs early season.
 
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Of course MM is better on worn tyres than pretty much anyone, most of us watched his 6 title wins and many race wins.

But why couldn’t he pass Morbidelli, a light of other days, on new soft tyres ?.

As I have said I strongly suspect Gigi is a rather good engineer/ designer, and is likely not to have wasted years of his time and a lot of money to produce a bike which is no better than the GP23. The guys who have raced both bikes say the GP24 is better, and the Ducati test rider whom you cited as a supporter of your point of view is on the record as saying he is unhappy about the prospect of MM getting upgrades. Is he trying to help MM by restricting him to the superior bike perhaps ?. It is also a vague possibility that Digi is better informed than you or I am as an actual current Ducati GP rider particularly since they apparently see each other’s telemetry/data. And why is Gigi so impressed about MM’s performance on a GP23 concerning which he has been quite vocal.

Top speed is a discussion between you and one other poster as far as I can tell, but the overall package will have been designed to be superior, possibly with trade offs between top speed and rideability, acceleration etc, but I see no evidence whatsoever that a GP23 can pass a GP24 on the straights. The KTM perhaps can but is fairly clearly deficient in comparison with the Ducati GP24 in other facets of performance. We had this discussion before with the Ducati GP07, the bike that rode itself on which Casey Stoner could apparently just blast past his competitors on the straights and snooze the rest of a given lap, Turned out he was the only one who could get the thing through corners at all, and only by a quite extreme method.

Again, why was MM on fresh soft tyres stuck behind Morbidelli for quite a number of laps ?.
I think I read somewhere MM saying that Morbidelli was using his rear tyres too much on the exit due to which MM was not able to pass him quickly. However when his tyres faded, MM quickly did the job.
 
Again, why was MM on fresh soft tyres stuck behind Morbidelli for quite a number of laps ?.
I don't know the answer either. At a guess where MM was strong from an overtaking viewpoint was also where Morbideli was also strong. Could it of also been a GP14 thing? Hard to know unless we can compare with the overtake of Bastainini
 
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I don't know the answer either. At a guess where MM was strong from an overtaking viewpoint was also where Morbideli was also strong. Could it have also been a GP14 thing? Hard to know unless we can compare with the overtake of Bastainini
I was somewhat implying it was a GP24 thing, I doubt on recent form Morbidelli was outriding MM on fresh soft tyres, although outlying events do sometimes happen, and perhaps had at least an acceleration advantage on the GP24. Who really knows though ?, , perhaps Morbidelli was having a good day and MM has outright said the track is not one which particularly suits his riding style.
 
Whilst I don’t disagree with this, I’ll admit I was on the edge of my seat after Marc passed Aleix and it was clear Marc’s tire was gone. I was expecting more fight from Aleix though.
Perhaps Aleix's tyre was gone too?
Soft tires do not last longer on abrasive surfaces, at least not in a world where the laws of physics are applicable.
I've heard that a track can have low grip and also be abrasive. Don't ask me how, this is past my armchair expertise
Ok - 5th, but how many seconds behind from first?
Yes 15 seconds behind but 2nd GP23 after M Marquez;
10.4 M Marquez
15.4 DiGi
16.8 A Marquez
21 Bezzecchi
 
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