2024 MotoGP Round 9: Liqui Moly Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland - Sachsenring

JPSLotus · Jul 8, 2024

michaelm said:
Many good points as is your wont.

Sure sports journalism is dead, and I strongly suspect so called journalists frequently get talking points from sports forums rather than doing actual research, so the tail is wagging the dog. As you say the public relations stuff run by the teams including the riders has got to the stage where unguarded information is hard to source anyway.

With the criticism of Martin it perhaps goes back to one of your perceptive previous arguments, that the hegemon is always favoured, and MM is the old hegemon and Bagnaia is becoming the new hegemon as it stands.

Martin I gather was far from a silver spoon rider in his youth, and has got to where he is on merit. It shouldn’t be forgotten he is not a factory rider, and satellite riders contending for titles has been vanishingly rare over the 40 odd years I have followed the sport, unless the Rossi Nastro Azzurro team is counted as a satellite team, and i am more confident that Valentino got full factory support than I am that Martin is receiving same..

I agree he has gotten where he has on merit. However I believe the criticism is certainly justified based on a whole slew of events. I look at it that Pecco has made missteps but he also stepped up when he had absolutely had no other choice. Martin has not done so. When the expectation of the season for both Pecco and Martin individually was to win the world title, nothing less will do. While crashing in the sprint race is not ideal, crashing in the GP is even more damaging to title chances. Martin picks the wrong times to go down. Pecco is riding superbly, and I believe this will not change at all.

Regardless of the support I do believe the record books reflect the Nastro Azzurro team as being a satellite team.

surendhar · Jul 8, 2024

JPSLotus said:
Also read that Frankie Carchedi said after MM's windscreen broke, he was down 10kph on the straight.

That seems outrageous from Carchedi, MM had his best top speed immediately after coming together with Frankie and he was even consistently on similar speed for the remainder of the laps.

mylexicon · Jul 8, 2024

JPSLotus said:
I agree he has gotten where he has on merit. However I believe the criticism is certainly justified based on a whole slew of events. I look at it that Pecco has made missteps but he also stepped up when he had absolutely had no other choice. Martin has not done so. When the expectation of the season for both Pecco and Martin individually was to win the world title, nothing less will do. While crashing in the sprint race is not ideal, crashing in the GP is even more damaging to title chances. Martin picks the wrong times to go down. Pecco is riding superbly, and I believe this will not change at all.

Regardless of the support I do believe the record books reflect the Nastro Azzurro team as being a satellite team.

Recent events suggest that Martin is a crasher and choke-artist. The data from last year shows that Jorge had fewer nonscores than Pecco on Sunday, and he had 5 more wins than Pecco on Saturdays. Martin’s loss in 2023 suggests that his non-podium GP results allowed Bagnaia to chip away at the lead, until Martin had no room for error.

It’s possible that checkers-or-wreckers is strategy adaptation, rather than a compulsion to fail under pressure. I guess Martin will decide during the 2nd half of this season. Aprilia will be watching as closely as the rest of us!

mylexicon · Jul 8, 2024

surendhar said:
That seems outrageous from Carchedi, MM had his best top speed immediately after coming together with Frankie and he was even consistently on similar speed for the remainder of the laps.

It is an unusual claim. Maybe there is a difference between the observed max on GPS and the observed max at the speed trap.

Sometimes the speed trap is set too far down the straight and the riders are actually braking when they trip the devices. In that case, the fastest top speed is set by the rider who misses his braking markers badly.

Marc is good on the brakes. Maybe that’s why his speed traps were good, but Carchedi claimed top speed (GPS) was down? Dunno. Just guessing.

surendhar · Jul 8, 2024

mylexicon said:
It is an unusual claim. Maybe there is a difference between the observed max on GPS and the observed max at the speed trap.

Sometimes the speed trap is set too far down the straight and the riders are actually braking when they trip the devices. In that case, the fastest top speed is set by the rider who misses his braking markers badly.

Marc is good on the brakes. Maybe that’s why his speed traps were good, but Carchedi claimed top speed (GPS) was down? Dunno. Just guessing.

Yeah, I thought the same and checked the lap times. His speed was particularly bad between Laps 10 to Lap 13 however

AnnoyingTwit · Jul 9, 2024

JPSLotus said:
Also read that Frankie Carchedi said after MM's windscreen broke, he was down 10kph on the straight.

And still Bastianini couldn't get past.

AnnoyingTwit · Jul 9, 2024

mylexicon said:
The issue for Marc, imo, is that his competitive advantage has been eroded by aero and ride height devices. Fast and loose is no longer the best way to rotate the bike and alter grip balance. The aero and ride height make a bigger difference in those metrics than rider skill.

Marc could win the rider's championship in 25 or 26, but he'll need to be better than Bagnaia on a bike that is built for Bagnaia. That's a tall order for Marc. He'll need some help from Pecco, or he'll need to capitalize on Pecco's slow starts, assuming they exist in the future. Bagnaia hasn't been slow off of the line this season. He's already got 6 wins and 4 in a row.

The other possibility is that Ducati want Marquez to win. I don't want to go there, but it's the 15,000lb African bull elephant sitting on the other side of the room. If Marquez notches his 7th and 8th premier class titles in red, you've got to figure its worth multiples more than whatever Bagnaia will achieve. Not saying it's going to happen, but corporate fiduciary responsibility is a real thing, and there are no rules against playing favorites.

This is actually a spicy situation. Italian pride probably compel Ducati to advance Bagnaia's career, but the dollar signs and corporate governance are leaning towards Marquez. Get the popcorn ready.

I'm thinking about things less analytically. To my eyes Marc is arguably the GOAT, and I think he still has it. Looking at the performance of the other GP23s, and riders who have more experience on Ducatis, I think that he's still a slice above. And, I think he knows what to do in order to have the Ducati factory team at least equal for him.

mikesbytes · Jul 9, 2024

mylexicon said:
Sometimes the speed trap is set too far down the straight and the riders are actually braking when they trip the devices. In that case, the fastest top speed is set by the rider who misses his braking markers badly.

Years ago I saw this in a WSBK race, there were about 6 riders in a bunch for the whole race at the front swapping positions which the commentators were talking fastest top speed which was consistently the same Italian rider though watching the race I couldn’t tell the difference. After the race in the interview he was told he was the fastest which surprised him saying he couldn’t see that at all.

I’d say that nowadays what is important is the acceleration out of the corner rather than the top speed and that could change in the future

michaelm · Jul 9, 2024

AnnoyingTwit said:
I'm thinking about things less analytically. To my eyes Marc is arguably the GOAT, and I think he still has it. Looking at the performance of the other GP23s, and riders who have more experience on Ducatis, I think that he's still a slice above. And, I think he knows what to do in order to have the Ducati factory team at least equal for him.

I would like to see completely equal equipment, but cui bono ?, as the Romans were wont to say. As had been said for Ducati they might prefer to see their homegrown Italian guy who very likely will have 3 titles by next season prosper, but MM winning would very likely be appealing for VW Audi.

We will have to see whether MM podiuming in adverse circumstances was due to the race being at his favourite circuit, but if he has learnt how to ride a Ducati in the Marquez way as he was quoted as saying post race the following races this season might be more interesting as well.

mikesbytes · Jul 9, 2024

So far this year Marc’s season has been like Zarco at Pramac, lots of podiums but no wins.

Last year by halfway, how many victories was there on the GP22? So far this year there has been zero victories on the GP23

Bern1 · Jul 9, 2024

JPSLotus said:
This is exactly how I feel.

I'd rather see a tire war again. Let the manufacturers make the best possible tire they can, that can be trusted not to kill the riders.

Get rid of this stupid tire pressure restrictions which is also ruining the racing. I get it was introduced to prevent teams from running pressures so low that it could cause a tire blowout, but it's turned into another beast altogether. And it's rewarding Michelin for their continued mediocrity. They don't want to design a proper tire so they cried to the FIM about the pressures to save themselves from being exposed as amateur hour.

Totally. Bring on tire wars. It is the only way to keep tire producers honest and to make them deliver the best tires for whichever team(s) they are contracted with. We all know how small those two little patches of rubber are that contact the pavement.

MichaelBolton said:
Quite a dramatic stance for what has been the top GP23 every race. If Marc is not winning this year it's because of machine disadvantage against the superior GP24. Also Marc is 31, and you're comparing him to Rossi at 38.

The list of riders and drivers not winning because of machine disadvantage is so long that it is completely meaningless.

synn · Jul 9, 2024

Let’s not forget that the GP23 is the second best bike on the grid.

Yeah there’s 4 of the best bikes on the grid as well, but in reality, only two of them are really competing.

#22 · Jul 9, 2024

Which is why Marquez ditched a factory Honda for it. I'm not sure if it is compliments to building a bike that is in effect, a year ahead of its competition at least, or whether the other manufacturers need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

It is widely accepted that the step in development between the GP24 and GP23 is greater than the GP23 to GP22. I think that is reflected in the results too, given that by this time last season, a GP22 had won 2 races.

synn · Jul 9, 2024

#22 said:
It is widely accepted that the step in development between the GP24 and GP23 is greater than the GP23 to GP22. I think that is reflected in the results too, given that by this time last season, a GP22 had won 2 races.

That is true, but if the 3rd best bike on the grid (The Aprilia) can win a race, then the second best certainly can.

To be fair to M. Marquez though, I don’t think he has mastered the Ducati aero riding style yet, which might be the difference maker.

MichaelBolton · Jul 9, 2024

synn said:
Let’s not forget that the GP23 is the second best bike on the grid.

I maintain that the Aprilia is better than the GP23 (or at least, no worse), and my argument for it is that if you take away the Marc factor, the Aprilias are usually evenly matched or finishing ahead of the other GP23s. To all this, you have to account for rider lineup skill - we've accepted for long that Aprilia wasn't maximizing its bike potential with the current crop of riders. Next year will give us a better idea of Aprilia's power (or maybe we'll have to wait another year for Marco and Jorge to fully adapt).

synn · Jul 9, 2024

MichaelBolton said:
I maintain that the Aprilia is better than the GP23 (or at least, no worse), and my argument for it is that if you take away the Marc factor, the Aprilias are usually evenly matched or finishing ahead of the other GP23s. To all this, you have to account for rider lineup skill - we've accepted for long that Aprilia wasn't maximizing its bike potential with the current crop of riders. Next year will give us a better idea of Aprilia's power (or maybe we'll have to wait another year for Marco and Jorge to fully adapt).

This is arguably true, but I also think Aprilia has a reliability problem (And an overheating problem they haven’t yet completely fixed) that prevents it from achieving its full potential.

I do think they will take a step up with next year’s rider lineup though.

#22 · Jul 9, 2024

synn said:
That is true, but if the 3rd best bike on the grid (The Aprilia) can win a race, then the second best certainly can.

To be fair to M. Marquez though, I don’t think he has mastered the Ducati aero riding style yet, which might be the difference maker.

He is also on a GP23, which stalled the careers of both Bastiannini and Bezzechi.

MichaelBolton said:
I maintain that the Aprilia is better than the GP23 (or at least, no worse), and my argument for it is that if you take away the Marc factor, the Aprilias are usually evenly matched or finishing ahead of the other GP23s. To all this, you have to account for rider lineup skill - we've accepted for long that Aprilia wasn't maximizing its bike potential with the current crop of riders. Next year will give us a better idea of Aprilia's power (or maybe we'll have to wait another year for Marco and Jorge to fully adapt).

synn said:
This is arguably true, but I also think Aprilia has a reliability problem (And an overheating problem they haven’t yet completely fixed) that prevents it from achieving its full potential.

I do think they will take a step up with next year’s rider lineup though.

I have long been a proponent on here for Aprilia to get 2 new riders, and I'm thrilled they finally have. We will see their true strengths and weaknesses next yr.

Bern1 · Jul 9, 2024

MichaelBolton said:
I maintain that the Aprilia is better than the GP23 (or at least, no worse), and my argument for it is that if you take away the Marc factor, the Aprilias are usually evenly matched or finishing ahead of the other GP23s. To all this, you have to account for rider lineup skill - we've accepted for long that Aprilia wasn't maximizing its bike potential with the current crop of riders. Next year will give us a better idea of Aprilia's power (or maybe we'll have to wait another year for Marco and Jorge to fully adapt).

Maybe MM jumped to the wrong bike? He should have gone to Aprilia, then he would be winning! And if he wasn’t, it would be because he should have gone somewhere else. Funny how the world appears to work sometimes.

MichaelBolton · Jul 9, 2024

Bern1 said:
Maybe MM jumped to the wrong bike? He should have gone to Aprilia, then he would be winning! And if he wasn’t, it would be because he should have gone somewhere else. Funny how the world appears to work sometimes.

Mate, what happened to you? you've been on a histrionic anti-MM posting spree as of late. You know the reasons Marc didn't go to Aprilia, riders were contracted, the Gresini team approached Marc, and he already had references from his brother. Come up with a meaningful point next time instead of some reddity low-quality shitpost.

Keshav · Jul 9, 2024

JPSLotus said:
We also don't know how Audi feel about the entire thing as I think their wishes would override whatever Ducati might want to be the most desirable outcome. We'll never know the details of what drove these negotiations truthfully. I do suspect they want to see Marc get two titles on one of their bikes regardless of Pecco possibly going into 2025 as a triple world champion. The dollar signs drive all of this sadly. Also did you or anyone else notice how chummy Marc seems to be with Carmelo in the pits after some of these races?

Dorna, Carmelo, Audi, Ducati, Liberty Media....and at the center of it all you have #93. Talk about a biblical shitstorm waiting to happen.

Marketing-wise the idea of a Marquez ten-time championship in the making to heighten public interest in MotoGp has to have their collective mouths watering. Somehow, tho, I have a feeling that if Dorna were to do everything in their power to bring this about, Carmello would find some way to screw it up.

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2024 MotoGP Round 9: Liqui Moly Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland - Sachsenring

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