2024 MotoGP Round 11: Motorrad Grand Prix von Österreich - Red Bull Ring

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I think we can all rise above petty discussions about ego and whatnot.

These guys all have ego. Without that you cannot be a top level racer. And face it, rivalries sell tickets. Even if you don’t want to admit it.

But at the same time, these guys are also risking their lives every time they put on their lids. So respect the riders and move on from the petty arguments.

In a years time from now, we’ll know who rules the house of Lenovo and sits on the iron throne. And it will be a clear picture, one way or the other. So let them paint that picture on track and leave the pettiness wayside.
 
Personality, ego , hotheaded decisions…. You’re talking about MM right? The MM who gave up wins and possible titles to teach FQ a lesson that backfired on him…..
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Using diversion? Low trick, politicians do that a lot, I despise it. MM may be all that, but this wasn't the point. Bagnaia is still what he is.
 
Bern1 said:
I cannot see this scenario playing out now any more than it ever has before.

Personality, ego , hotheaded decisions…. You’re talking about MM right? The MM who gave up wins and possible titles to teach FQ a lesson that backfired on him…..
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Just to be clear, I agree that the likelihood is that Bagnaia is just plain better at this stage in their respective careers, that is just motogp life, if the careers of two great riders overlap it is hardly unexpected for the younger one to eventually be better than the older one, cf Rossi and Lorenzo.

I disagree about “this scenario” never playing out, as a Stoner tragic it immediately sprang to mind that pretty much the same scenario played out twice for the artist formerly known as Crashey Stoner, who went from many crashes riding with flawed equipment in 2006 and 2010 to near perfect seasons in 2007 and 2011 on equipment good enough to win the title.

As has been pointed out MM is consistently significantly faster than Bezzecchi who was fast enough three times on a GP22 to beat both Bagnaia and Martin who were riding GP23s last year. If the GP24 is intrinsically a few tenths faster per lap as seems likely then it at least potentially changes things significantly when both MM and Bagnaia are on the same bike. We also know MM can ride conservatively to win a title because he has done so. Whether he will again is a different question of course.
 
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michaelm said:
They/Gigi actually engineered a bike with the specific purpose of negating the intrinsic human ability MM had to ride in a way no one else could. And they did it with aero, and hence won’t get much in the way of cheers from me at least.

Few will disagree that Bagnaia looks to be the master of the current paradigm, he has grown up with the bike and it has been developed around him, but of course his talent has played a major role.

Like JPS I haven’t given up on a last hurrah from MM yet, and don’t think he would be beating MM if they swapped bikes, even if he is better than current MM imo he couldn’t overcome the superiority of the GP24 as a bike.

He looks very likely to have 3 premier class titles by the end of the season, which historically has been the mark of greatness in the sport, and will be for him. I might have to stop watching the sport, no problem with him winning by being the best, but I can’t stand Rossi turning up post race, on the track this last tome. time.

I believe MM may still have the pace for a year or two, but he will have to get back to the relentless consistency of some of his former years to have a chance to beat Bagnaia, who seems to have rather mastered the relentless consistency thing himself. Hopefully from the MM fan point of view he has got the ball luck and crashing out of his system this year, and won’t over ride on an equal bike.
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time not time, and bad luck not ball luck.
 
Segfault said:
Some predictions how 2025 might unfold in Ducati garage.
Bagnaia has hailed to have strong personality, I do not see it. I see strong ego. I see him driven by this ego of his into hotheaded decisions. Looking back at his MotoGP years I'd say there are up to 8 cases when he let his ego get better of him with unfavorable consequences.
This makes me think first 3-4 races will be important for him. If Marc finishes in front of him a few times and then he sees Marc's smiling face in the pits he may crack. Talking about mind games, Marc has uncanny ability to say nothing yet to leave the other party with feeling he is a dog barking at a moving train – that would be Marc. This can devastate a guy like Bagnaia. (It drove Rossi nuts.)
Just my thoughts this morning. Maybe Bagnaia starts winning and Marc will never catch up.
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I expect Bagnaia will be counting the minutes, all the time, burying the part of him (such as it is) that expresses passion, the part that would be vulnerable to mind games. He - for the most part - strikes me as a cold calculating fish . . . very much not like Rossi. With a 3rd championship under his belt, his confidence will stead him well in 2025, and barring injury or unforced DNFs for either rider, it points to a very tight season.
 
I'll be honest, as large of a fan of MM I am, I am picking Pecco to beat him next year. I just think Pecco is perfect on the Gigicycle. His body positioning on lean is the best on the grid in my opinion for the current iteration of GP bikes. Jorge Martin for as fast as he is, doesn't have the positioning to get the ideal air flow on lean over the side of the bike down to the rear fins for maximum downforce. The only thing I could see changing with my prediction is if MM can ride the GP25 more to his preferred strengths, and he starts rattling Pecco. Also perhaps the other unknown that could change things is if the VR46 camp start running their mouths publicly about god only knows what at this point...we know MM likes that additional motivation.
 
JPSLotus said:
Pecco is perfect on the Gigicycle. His body positioning on lean is the best on the grid in my opinion for the current iteration of GP bikes.
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He really built that style over the past couple of years, no doubt with ample advice from Gigi. If you watch his Moto2 races and even the early MotoGP ones, he used to do wide sweeping lines which of course won’t work with the current gen bikes.

Your point on body positioning is spot on, he uses every part of his body very judiciously, not disturbing the aero at all.

Martin to his credit, hangs off the bike more, hence can use a fatter contact patch on exit, which is where he makes up the time.

A fascinating study of contrasts for sure.
 
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synn said:
I think we can all rise above petty discussions about ego and whatnot.

These guys all have ego. Without that you cannot be a top level racer. And face it, rivalries sell tickets. Even if you don’t want to admit it.

But at the same time, these guys are also risking their lives every time they put on their lids. So respect the riders and move on from the petty arguments.

In a years time from now, we’ll know who rules the house of Lenovo and sits on the iron throne. And it will be a clear picture, one way or the other. So let them paint that picture on track and leave the pettiness wayside.
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Mate, rarely disagree with you. I don't see discussions of ego etc. as being "petty". Personality is largely what drives fans to one rider or another. And it's the very factor that determines what causes a rider to make all the second-to-second decisions that affect the outcome of a race and/or career. Personality is what makes a guy like Doohan come back from horrendous injuries to win a championship against all odds. Or Marquez enduring all the surgeries and the endless re-hab. Those things really speak to me, as a guy who's been through shoulder surgeries and broken collar bones, who finally called it quits after breaking my hip, all relatively minor stuff compared with Doohan and Marquez. Speaking for myself only, I find the riders much more interesting than the machines.

As an admitted geezer I am naturally pumped at the idea of the "elder" MM winning another championship, or simply giving Pecco a serious challenge in '25. Way I see it, women like soap operas, guys like sports, which are less-scripted soap operas - on steroids.
 
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Keshav said:
As an admitted geezer I am naturally pumped at the idea of the "elder" MM winning another championship, or simply giving Pecco a serious challenge in '25.
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Fair enough and I am looking forward to this titanic tussle as well, not to mention Martin and Bastianini being dark horses, and Acosta lurking around the corner. 2025 is going to be a fantastic season.

I won’t be surprised to see Marquez win another title; although the likelihood of that happens would be more 2026 then next year IMO.

I do have a newfound respect for him after his comeback from the injury. And even if the best he can manage is a few runner ups in the final chapter of his career, he can retire with pride. He’s already one of the all time greats with nothing left to prove.
 
What we saw in this race was that MM was noticeably faster than anyone who wasn't on a GP24. Next year I'll guess that whether its Bagnaia or MM who is fastest on the GP25, I'd say it will depend on how much the GP25 suits their respective ride styles
 
warthog1 said:
I see MM as up against it next year too. Pecco is very, very good on the Ducati. Very good full stop, but he has extensive knowledge and experience on how to get the best out of it. Formidable.
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The way I look at it is Pecco is at his peak on the Ducati. Marquez, has the potential to have a higher peak given his comparatively little time on the bike but we just don't know yet. That is what makes it exciting
 
Bern1 said:
Personality, ego , hotheaded decisions…. You’re talking about MM right? The MM who gave up wins and possible titles to teach FQ a lesson that backfired on him…..
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As others have alluded to, all riders have egos. But people conveniently forget the benefits of it over the negatives. Sure, you could argue that his ego to not let FQ win a race almost cost him his career (and arm), but were it not for that ego and self confidence, he'd not be an 8 times world champion.
synn said:
But at the same time, these guys are also risking their lives every time they put on their lids. So respect the riders and move on from the petty arguments.
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100%
michaelm said:
Just to be clear, I agree that the likelihood is that Bagnaia is just plain better at this stage in their respective careers, that is just motogp life, if the careers of two great riders overlap it is hardly unexpected for the younger one to eventually be better than the older one, cf Rossi and Lorenzo.
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Or arguable Rossi Vs Marquez. Rossi put up a good fight in the mid 2010's, but he couldn't accept that he was no longer at his peak, but Marquez was.
synn said:
I do have a newfound respect for him after his comeback from the injury. And even if the best he can manage is a few runner ups in the final chapter of his career, he can retire with pride. He’s already one of the all time greats with nothing left to prove.
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The fact he also took a massive pay cut to move to a small customer team, such is his desire to win, also is a massive credit on his legacy imo.

Compare that with Fabio, taking the big bucks from Yamaha when he had an Aprilia offer, then continues to moan about the bike.
 
synn said:
Fair enough and I am looking forward to this titanic tussle as well, not to mention Martin and Bastianini being dark horses, and Acosta lurking around the corner. 2025 is going to be a fantastic season.

I won’t be surprised to see Marquez win another title; although the likelihood of that happens would be more 2026 then next year IMO.

I do have a newfound respect for him after his comeback from the injury. And even if the best he can manage is a few runner ups in the final chapter of his career, he can retire with pride. He’s already one of the all time greats with nothing left to prove.
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I would like to think no one on here wishes injury or misfortune on Bagnaia, There are simply a number of staunch MM fans on here who would like to see MM win another title, partly to see him match Rossi in some cases including mine. Not all the long term posters on here are MM fans of course either, at least two of the most knowledgeable posters on here in Lex and Bern strongly appreciate Pecco while not being major MM fans for reasons they have explained which are eminently rational. Bagnaia’s two titles so far and likely title this year were/will be because he rode the best. If Bagnaia beats MM after this year it will because of his quality as a rider, and discussion of whether MM was better at his peak will be hypothetical as all such discussions are.

I don’t have a problem with Pecco appreciating Valentino for mentoring him either. I do have animus against Rossi for making the careers of two great riders I admired in Stoner and Lorenzo miserable, for him continuing his war on MM nearly a decade on, for enlisting some of his protégés (not Pecco so much) to that cause, and for apparently feeling the need to share Pecco’s limelight, something he of all people has no need to do, just as he had no need to match Ago for premier class titles in the first place, although I could also see it as part of his MM thing.
 
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Whoah, no one here is a rabid Valeban. I've never seen a single one of the respected regualrs act in that manner. I would love to see Marquez win another title, but never at the expense of an injury to another rider.

As Synn said, these guys risk their life every time they get on a bike. I may not like some of them, but I respect every last one of them.
 
I will be shocked if MMarquez does not at least give Bagnaia a very very strong challenge for the championship next year. I'm entirely undecided as to which has the greater chance of winning out.

I'd be happy with either outcome. I'm not a dedicated fan of either.

Personally I tend to support the underdog. So, Rossi when he switched to Yamaha. Hayden and then Stoner for their first (or only) championship. Marquez when he was in his debut year, and later Dovi. I don't see either Marc nor Pecco as an underdog.
 

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