2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

Bern1 said:

I think it is possible that by the time Doohan, Rainey and Schwantz were going at it the bikes had become more powerful and allowed the rider to use that power in a way that was not possible just a few years before. Hence the "show" improved and the high sides also perhaps got higher.

That era of racing was fantastic, those three in particular of course. But I think that of all the eras when you are watching the best riders. Sometimes the skill set changes just a little and certain riders may adapt better to the new requirements determined by the machines and tires. I believe we are witnessing just such a change these days.

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Steady Eddie just kept it more inline. That was how he was fast as I remember it. Fast he was.

Here is Gardner's first series on the V4 NSR. 1985. Nup, he wasn't keeping it inline. Watch him sliding through the fast right handers after the main straight. He high sided out on a fast right hander in race 2.

Faz said:

The problem and evidenced by conflicting views on this forum is that when these fine margin events occur it comes down to an individual subjective decision and that even occurs in RD. We’ve had a rider say he was expecting contact which I think is fair enough, he hasn’t said he was seeking contact but was prepared if it did happen and undoubtedly the other rider was thinking the same. These boys are the elite of motorcycle racing and have the skills to accept a small brush against a fellow rider and be unsettled but can reset as long as enough track space is left. We’ve all seen the kamikaze dive pass that the catches the lead rider totally unawares and he’s momentarily fazed which causes him to run to close to the rear of the passing rider, brake and totally miss the apex and run on or off the track. We never hold the passing rider to account for that manoeuvre do we? We expect the lead rider to be aware of his situation and possible pass attempts, touch gloves and defend yourself at all times Ding Ding! If it’s a clear and obvious barge we can all I would guess agree on it but where it’s a cutback and the possibility of minimal contact that’s where we get the arguments. But we’ve got to remember that for a pass to happen the lead rider has to accept he’s been passed and give way?
I don’t have problems with let’s call it spirited riding because the riders are of such a calibre they are able to do it without it getting outright dirty. I do take a dim view if it’s used on a rider of a lesser standard and see that as bullying.
I agree Michaelm that riders are treated by what they bring to the show to a certain extent but we see that in a lot of sports nowadays with all the money involved, boxing and U.K. Premier League soccer where the lowly teams always get the bums rush. It’s mostly about the money and the show in RD but I wouldn’t like to be in Zarcos shoes after what he said to Freddie Spencer!

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I disagree. The issue is whether MM left a gap. If he overcooked things making his own pass and ran wide then it is his problem, but you and others basically seem to be contending he should go wide in anticipation of being re-passed which doesn’t make much sense to me. Bagnaia actually made contact which he acknowledges he expected to do and MM says he would have definitely have taken him out, and possibly but less likely taken them both out if he MM had not taken evasive action ie it ended up being a light touch because of MM not Bagnaia. MM’s initial pass didn’t place that requirement on Bagnaia.

MM while not complaining overly has made it very clear who would have been responsible for a crash, and who was responsible for avoiding a crash for future reference, and i trust you and Bagnaia won’t question it if MM takes an opportunity in a subsequent race which will put the onus on Bagnaia to avoid a collision. Bagnaia has already elected himself this season to take both of them out when passed by a much faster MM who had made up 4 seconds on him at a point not nearly as close to the end of the race concerned.

I am quite happy to acknowledge the general quality of Bagnaia’s riding in the race, particularly the astonishing first lap and the not much less astonishing late race lap record, but can’t consider his riposte to the MM pass to be either an example of quality riding in general or of Bagnaia out-riding MM. Call it determined riding if you wish.

Perception is reality to you. Like you’ve perceived I “seem” to be saying MM should run wide to allow room for PB? I didn’t. There was enough room for PB to muscle his bike in there and MM saw this and tightened his line in the corner to fend him off. Great move by MM end no problem. He never took any evasive action at all?
The second pass attempt by PB was clean as a whistle and he left plenty of room for MM even though he could have squeezed him if he so desired.
After that he got his head down and ...... off into the sunset and there was nothing MM could do about it. Don’t get sucked in by the he allowed him to win because he wants a 25 factory Ducati spiel. MM simply doesnt do that. Ever.

And before I get any slaver about being a Pecco groupie I even have this critter eating my hard earned and living the life of luxury!
I simply say it as I see it.

Faz said:

Perception is reality to you. Like you’ve perceived I “seem” to be saying MM should run wide to allow room for PB? I didn’t. There was enough room for PB to muscle his bike in there and MM saw this and tightened his line in the corner to fend him off. Great move by MM end no problem. He never took any evasive action at all?
The second pass attempt by PB was clean as a whistle and he left plenty of room for MM even though he could have squeezed him if he so desired.
After that he got his head down and ...... off into the sunset and there was nothing MM could do about it. Don’t get sucked in by the he allowed him to win because he wants a 25 factory Ducati spiel. MM simply doesnt do that. Ever.

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So I consider my perception is reality which it can’t be because it is your perception that is reality ?.

The crux which I stated and which Mdub stated several times earlier in the thread is whether MM moved to block Bagnaia or whether he was on a racing line from which he had to remove himself to avoid being taken out by Bagnaia. Bagnaia says he anticipated contract before he made his riposte. MM says he had to take evasive action to avoid being taken out. Bagnaia didn’t say MM turned in on him, nor did Valentino Rossi, nor anyone involved of whom I am aware say it, it is in fact you who alone is saying it as an authoritative statement rather than an opinion. Again, does MM who is in front have to wait till Bagnaia chooses his line before choosing his own line ?. Or wait to see what Bagnaia does before turning into the next corner ?. I like your definition of light contact as well, tyre marks all over MM’s leathers which various things like the laws of physics would suggest came from Baganaia’s front wheel rather than his rear wheel, and resulted from contact after evasive action by MM.

And when did I say MM let him win after the pass didn’t succeed ?. As does not seem to be the case with you I read then remember what I read and let that inform my opinions. MM said straight out that once the pass didn’t succeed his chances of winning were gone given it does your tyres in for a lap or two ianyeay, which is what i think but am less certain Valentino Rossi also said. MM said he kept up what pace he could including his own fastest race lap in the hope that if Bagnaia made a mistake it might give him a chance; he said nothing about a mistake being likely and nor was a mistake made. I don’t think MM, I or anyone else has said it would have been impossible for Bagnaia to get back in front at a later stage in the race had MM’s pass stuck either.


And you try some fending off yourself in your next post by proclaiming you are not a Bagnaia fan when you have self declared that you hate MM in an earlier post and express disdain for him in regard to something no one had said or even implied ie that he let Bagnaia win after the pass attempt when he himself in fact said the total opposite.

Funny thing bias. It is not something which only exists in other people. And you are taking issue with people who actually know and are happy to acknowledge that they are MM fans with no claim to being unbiased themselves.

warthog1 said:

Steady Eddie just kept it more inline. That was how he was fast as I remember it. Fast he was.

Here is Gardner's first series on the V4 NSR. 1985. Nup, he wasn't keeping it inline. Watch him sliding through the fast right handers after the main straight. He high sided out on a fast right hander in race 2.

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Think I saw that race live. Gardner doesn't look like that nowadays

Mate, you’re coming across as a fantasist now. I didn’t say that you believed that MM let him win but that you shouldn’t believe what I had read elsewhere that he in fact did let him win. Do you believe everything that comes out of a riders mouth especially after a closely fought race? Than strikes me as pretty naive. Thanks for conceding that MM could do .... all about catching Pecco, it’s big of you. You’ll have to refresh me on my self declared hatred for Marc? No doubt you can search my previous posts and provide the evidence. Good luck with that.
Yes bias can be a funny thing in that it can make a person believe a conspiracy exists where there is nothing. Tbh with you, given your length of time on this forum I’m surprised and a little disappointed as your posts have always been truthful. honest and worthy of respect which leaves me at a loss to explain your ire with me?

michaelm said:

So I consider my perception is reality which it can’t be because it is your perception that is reality ?.

The crux which I stated and which Mdub stated several times earlier in the thread is whether MM moved to block Bagnaia or whether he was on a racing line from which he had to remove himself to avoid being taken out by Bagnaia. Bagnaia says he anticipated contract before he made his riposte. MM says he had to take evasive action to avoid being taken out. Bagnaia didn’t say MM turned in on him, nor did Valentino Rossi, nor anyone involved of whom I am aware say it, it is in fact you who alone is saying it as an authoritative statement rather than an opinion. Again, does MM who is in front have to wait till Bagnaia chooses his line before choosing his own line ?. Or wait to see what Bagnaia does before turning into the next corner ?. I like your definition of light contact as well, tyre marks all over MM’s leathers which various things like the laws of physics would suggest came from Baganaia’s front wheel rather than his rear wheel, and resulted from contact after evasive action by MM.

And when did I say MM let him win after the pass didn’t succeed ?. As does not seem to be the case with you I read then remember what I read and let that inform my opinions. MM said straight out that once the pass didn’t succeed his chances of winning were gone given it does your tyres in for a lap or two ianyeay, which is what i think but am less certain Valentino Rossi also said. MM said he kept up what pace he could including his own fastest race lap in the hope that if Bagnaia made a mistake it might give him a chance; he said nothing about a mistake being likely and nor was a mistake made. I don’t think MM, I or anyone else has said it would have been impossible for Bagnaia to get back in front at a later stage in the race had MM’s pass stuck either.


And you try some fending off yourself in your next post by proclaiming you are not a Bagnaia fan when you have self declared that you hate MM in an earlier post and express disdain for him in regard to something no one had said or even implied ie that he let Bagnaia win after the pass attempt when he himself in fact said the total opposite.

Funny thing bias. It is not something which only exists in other people. And you are taking issue with people who actually know and are happy to acknowledge that they are MM fans with no claim to being unbiased themselves.

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Bingo! The problem with Faz perception is it is incomplete. He is not taking into consideration the corner. Its actually two 90's with a flat very short straight in between. Marc was on the race line and in front. His line was the correct one. He does not need to alter his line because I thinks a (terrible) move might be coming. Nor does he have eyes in the back of his head in order to see the move. Peccos line was always going to intersect the race line which is an awful tactic 100% of the time. It left no chance of not making contact and also would have left him with little drive down the next straight. He would have been overtaken for sure. Pecco does this all the time. He did it to Acosta in Portimao before doing it to Marc resulting in the crash. The only reason Pedro wasn't taken out is because he was on the inside for the next corner after Pecco's terrible undercut attempt. Pecco makes desperate move often and expects the other rider to react to it. Yet if someone does him similar he cries like a bitch.

mikesbytes said:

Think I saw that race live. Gardner doesn't look like that nowadays

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Yeah I saw it on tv live or soon after. Haven't seen WG in ages. It's a few years later. I never looked good but I sure as .... aint looking better either.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Bingo! The problem with Faz perception is it is incomplete. He is not taking into consideration the corner. It’s actually two 90's with a flat very short straight in between. Marc was on the race line and in front. His line was the correct one. He does not need to alter his line because I thinks a (terrible) move might be coming. Nor does he have eyes in the back of his head in order to see the move. Peccos line was always going to intersect the race line which is an awful tactic 100% of the time. It left no chance of not making contact and also would have left him with little drive down the next straight. He would have been overtaken for sure. Pecco does this all the time. He did it to Acosta in Portimao before doing it to Marc resulting in the crash. The only reason Pedro wasn't taken out is because he was on the inside for the next corner after Pecco's terrible undercut attempt. Pecco makes desperate move often and expects the other rider to react to it. Yet if someone does him similar he cries like a bitch.

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On the crash in Portimao I agreed and posted that Pecco was at fault but was not imo thinking clearly about the corner being in effect a double apex and was just intent at that moment in getting ahead of Marc.
In Spain he was forcing the issue again but less strongly imo. MM looked and acted like the contact was of no concern to him and certainly his post race comments don’t appear overly vitriolic. He may well have made his comments regarding him having to avert a possible crash for RD ears primarily? Pecco may well do this all the time but it hasn’t really struck me but he has done it now twice with MM. Perhaps Marc’s comment to him about not liking the fact that he can beat him now has touched a nerve and he refuses to back down to him again? We’ll have to see but that will eventually plays into Marc’s hands as I well remember him putting Rossi back in his box when he tried the same tactics. Yes Pecco has moaned in the past but he may after two WC have found something that maybe he didn’t know he had in his latest win. For me all these possibilities are what makes it interesting to watch. Did Vinales really turn a corner in Cota and what’s with this excuse about an A and a B bike? More intrigue and speculation makes for a better show and certainly differing viewpoints.

warthog1 said:

Steady Eddie just kept it more inline. That was how he was fast as I remember it. Fast he was.

Here is Gardner's first series on the V4 NSR. 1985. Nup, he wasn't keeping it inline. Watch him sliding through the fast right handers after the main straight. He high sided out on a fast right hander in race 2.

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I watched a lot of his races as you obviously did. There is plenty of footage on the internet now as well. One was posted on here a while back of him having a huge tank slapper pretty much the whole distance along a straight then continuing as if nothing had happened, a pretty good example of both him and his approach. He seems to have mellowed a little and I am warming to him again, and 18 race wins against the opposition he faced along with a world title is hardly negligible. He managed to retire with fairly intact health as well.

I don’t think there is anyone who wouldn’t consider Eddie Lawson’s method superior though, particularly when he got on the same Honda and won the world title straight off as well.

Faz said:

On the crash in Portimao I agreed and posted that Pecco was at fault but was not imo thinking clearly about the corner being in effect a double apex and was just intent at that moment in getting ahead of Marc.
In Spain he was forcing the issue again but less strongly imo. MM looked and acted like the contact was of no concern to him and certainly his post race comments don’t appear overly vitriolic. He may well have made his comments regarding him having to avert a possible crash for RD ears primarily? Pecco may well do this all the time but it hasn’t struck me but he has done it twice with MM. Perhaps Marc’s comment to him about not liking the fact that he can beat him now has touched a nerve and he refuses to back down to him again? We’ll have to see but that will eventually plays into Marc’s hands as I well remember him putting Rossi back in his box when he tried it. Yes Pecco has moaned in the past but he may after two WC found something maybe he didn’t know he had in his latest win. For me all these possibilities are what makes it interesting to watch. Did Vinales really turn a corner in Cota and what’s this excuse about an A and a B bike? More intrigue and speculation makes for a better show and certainly differing viewpoints.

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Good post. I agree. I stated earlier even though Pecco beat Marc this race Marc has the upper hand. Marc has been able to pass Pecco clean twice while Pecco has to make questionable moves to try over take Marc. This game is going to cost Pecco more than Marc. Marc has nothing to loss here. Marc did not seem upset after the race but thats normal for Marc after being raced hard. Also it appears to me he is trying to be a team player at Ducati. He understands that excepting this and not causing an issue gives him a better chance at a gp25 next year. Thats telling to me that he expects or is in talks for a factory spot next year. If he wasn't he probably would have tried harder to get back ahead of Pecco.

michaelm said:

I watched a lot of his races as you obviously did. There is plenty of footage on the internet now as well. One was posted on here a while back of him having a huge tank slapper pretty much the whole distance along a straight then continuing as if nothing had happened, a pretty good example of both him and his approach. He seems to have mellowed a little and I am warming to him again, and 18 race wins against the opposition he faced along with a world title is hardly negligible. He managed to retire with fairly intact health as well.

I don’t think there is anyone who wouldn’t consider Eddie Lawson’s method superior though, particularly when he got on the same Honda and won the world title straight off as well.

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No doubt Eddie was better. I posted that, to show that they didn't all ride without getting sideways. Schwantz and Doohan also pushed both ends of the bike hard.
Erv Kanemoto had quite a hand in sorting that bike as well for Lawson but yes I rate Lawson above Gardner. Not above Rainey and Doohan though.

mylexicon said:

It's funny that hardship can make a sportsman more appealing to the skeptical mind. I was skeptical of Stoner when he first entered GP, but after the tire changes and the malevolent disregard from Dorna (and their agent V Rossi), I felt privileged to watch Stoner mop-up the competition in 2011, even if it was processional. I don't bet on sports, but Stoner's WC in 2011 was a lock. I hope Stoner fans bet the farm.

Now that the battle between Marquez and the Machine has been revealed, I can identify with Marc a bit more. The organization that was mobilized to coronate him, has been mobilized to curtail his influence. His attitude hasn't changed though, which is admirable. His choices from now will further shape my perception of him. If he makes a Faustian deal with factory Ducati, it diminishes him a bit, imo, but the record books don't really care about reputation, do they?

Regarding Bagnaia, and alignment with the personality schema of athletes, I wonder if he treats his teammates like Muhammad Ali? Larry Holmes once said something like, Ali is the nicest man in the world, as long as you accept that he is the champion. Holmes felt that Ali was not supportive when it was time for him to graduate from sparring partner to heavyweight champion. Holmes never lost his respect or admiration for Ali, but without his stature as champion, Ali was allegedly no longer able to relate to Holmes, especially after their bout in 1980. Maybe, Bagnaia is the same. He is friendly and content, as long as you are in check. But if threatened, his mask of sanity slips. The satellite bikes are too fast......

We'll see. Pecco has only been in the limelight for 3 seasons. He has a long road ahead.

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warthog1 said:

No doubt Eddie was better. I posted that, to show that they didn't all ride without getting sideways. Schwantz and Doohan also pushed both ends of the bike hard.
Erv Kanemoto had quite a hand in sorting that bike as well for Lawson but yes I rate Lawson above Gardner. Not above Rainey and Doohan though.

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Sure, didn’t mean to suggest you or anyone else considered Lawson better than Gardner, other than me in 1987.

Faz said:

Mate, you’re coming across as a fantasist now. I didn’t say that you believed that MM let him win but that you shouldn’t believe what I had read elsewhere that he in fact did let him win. Do you believe everything that comes out of a riders mouth especially after a closely fought race? Than strikes me as pretty naive. Thanks for conceding that MM could do .... all about catching Pecco, it’s big of you. You’ll have to refresh me on my self declared hatred for Marc? No doubt you can search my previous posts and provide the evidence. Good luck with that.
Yes bias can be a funny thing in that it can make a person believe a conspiracy exists where there is nothing. Tbh with you, given your length of time on this forum I’m surprised and a little disappointed as your posts have always been truthful. honest and worthy of respect which leaves me at a loss to explain your ire with me?

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I will cop to confusing you with Techdmn, posting on my phone getting on and off a plane, another poster unfamiliar to me who joined the discussion at a time close to when you were also involved.

My ire was raised once again by one Valentino Rossi who said post race he had been advising Bagnaia on the best way to combat MM, which may or may not be the case,, with you appearing to argue along similar lines. I do agree with you that the person being passed has to accept being passed, and the option to crash into the other rider always exists but is not often taken by the top riders, although there is some history among F1 drivers of course. In what circumstance Bagnaia would accept that he had been passed by MM remains an open question for me, with never among possible answers.

My view is the same as and better expressed by MDub, and I actually said from the get go that if MM had overcooked it and run wide then that was his problem, but like MDub imo he made a clean pass and was proceeding normally on the racing line.

I am not sure who other than me I was meant to think you were referring to when you admonished me not to believe MM had let Bagnaia win in the last laps in a post addressed to me in which you did not otherwise specify, and considered this a straw man since I personally very definitely neither believed let alone contended this, having read the post race interview with MM in which he straight out said his chance was gone once the pass was rebuffed. The way the race panned out was not his pre-race plan btw, which altered by being shuffled back on the first lap, which was obviously partly a result of undeniably brilliant riding by Bagnaia, and about which he made no complaint. I imagine his plan was to get to the first corner in front from pole and stay there.

warthog1 said:

Steady Eddie just kept it more inline. That was how he was fast as I remember it. Fast he was.

Here is Gardner's first series on the V4 NSR. 1985. Nup, he wasn't keeping it inline. Watch him sliding through the fast right handers after the main straight. He high sided out on a fast right hander in race 2.

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That was an awesome clip, thanks for posting it. Great to hear those engines at full song!

Gardner being Gardner, “whacking the throttle.” Great to watch, especially considering how dicey that was at the time. You say he highsided at one of those corners after this race. I noticed how close Armco was in one of those corners. I can’t help but think that today the riders in general dare contact more than at that time just because of things like the electronics making the bike slightly more predictable, there’s more runoff, etc. etc.

To this day, has Honda ever built a really sweet handling GP bike? It seems they have always had the engine.

Yes, Eddie was smooth and steady, earning his moniker for sure. Lorenzo reminded me of Lawson, perhaps one of the reasons I liked watching him so much.

Finally a good race at this track. Usually this is a snoozefest race track, but this one was lit.

Bern1 said:

That was an awesome clip, thanks for posting it. Great to hear those engines at full song!

Gardner being Gardner, “whacking the throttle.” Great to watch, especially considering how dicey that was at the time. You say he highsided at one of those corners after this race. I noticed how close Armco was in one of those corners. I can’t help but think that today the riders in general dare contact more than at that time just because of things like the electronics making the bike slightly more predictable, there’s more runoff, etc. etc.

To this day, has Honda ever built a really sweet handling GP bike? It seems they have always had the engine.

Yes, Eddie was smooth and steady, earning his moniker for sure. Lorenzo reminded me of Lawson, perhaps one of the reasons I liked watching him so much.

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Cheers
That was race 1 at that meet. There was a race 2 later which he crashed in.
There isn't a full clip of race 2 that I can find, but his crash is at the end of this clip.

warthog1 said:

Steady Eddie just kept it more inline. That was how he was fast as I remember it. Fast he was.

Here is Gardner's first series on the V4 NSR. 1985. Nup, he wasn't keeping it inline. Watch him sliding through the fast right handers after the main straight. He high sided out on a fast right hander in race 2.

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The NSR's power down the straights is just LOL.

Man, looks like that was right into the ditch, with a near miss not too far back. Yes, impressive how fast the closing speeds were on the straights!