You may be allowing your perception that Pecco purposefully hit Marc to affect your judgement in this case. I don’t believe he did in the knowledge that only one person does and he may choose to accept or deny it after the fact in attempts to influence the media and rivals to his own ends. If anyone is at fault it would be race direction but it’s not a ‘clear and obvious’ foul so they haven’t gotten involved but you seem content to use it as a means to belittle what was an incredible win for Pecco. I have nailed my colours to the mast previously in that I’m a MM supporter but I’m not a fanboy and if another rider can bring it and best Marc I just tip my hat to them as in this case.
2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez
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I will continue to use it to belittle this win, because had he not hit him there I don't think he would have won. So far this year they have made contact twice. Both times by Pecco trying to reclaim the position. You can't fault Marc or blame his past transgressions for this. Have they ever made contact in the past? But obviously it is race directions lack of transparency that is the biggest issue here. Whether or not Pecco purposely hit Marc doesn't really matter. Have the other riders that have been given a penalty for this been proven to have hit the other rider on purpose? However in this case Peccos own words are damning
Bagnaia Defends Contact with Marquez as “Smart” Move in Jerez MotoGP Duel
“When you fight like this, you know there might be some contact. I thought it was smooth and smart,” Bagnaia said.
"You know there might be contact," yet the only rider to make contact is the rider who said this. So far two times this year Pecco has made contact with Marc. But yet Marc receives a penalty for hitting a much slower bike in the same way the same weekend. Is there any point when you think enough is enough? Do you think it is ok that Pecco does this every race to Marc? What do you think people would say if the roles were reversed? Do you think everyone would be ok if Marc did this to Pecco? .... he wasn't even allowed to do this to the shitbox Honda that wasn't near his pace. Why is it not ok to hit a slower bike mid pack but it is ok to hit the rider leading the race?
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Marc has said on the 'behind the scenes' video on MotoGP.com that had that first pass stuck, he'd have won. So there you have it. Bagnaia barged his way to a win. Now my question is, would people be defending the move, if Marc Marquez had made it?
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And if you ask Pecco had that first pass stuck, he'd most-likely say he'd still have won the race. Either statement means nothing but Pecco did set the fastest lap of the race on the penultimate lap(?). I realize this was done without Marc in front of him to try and pass but I'm thinking Pecco had something for Marc even if that first pass had stuck. I take it your question is rhetorical as you know the answer. Marc's fans would have applauded the move and his detractors would call him too aggressive, unsafe and Satan, but Marc helped bring that on himself. He came into MotoGP with a reputation that preceded him. He didn't do much to dispel it once he arrived. Pecco and Marc battled, they touched and Pecco came out on top. It was Pecco's day. They both rode amazing. The die is cast and the rest of the season should be fun to watch. Look at Marc's face in Parc Ferme when he asserts "the speed is there." He'll be back.
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Bagnaia is young and fast. This year we will indeed see what he is really made of. He has more competition than ever before. Will he sparkle or will he fade? Indeed this is why we watch.
Marquez is now older and still has the spark. He is on a competitive bike and healthy. Similar to watching Pecco but for different reasons, I am curious to see what kind of Marquez we will see at the end of the year. Again, this is why we watch.
As to who hit who when, why and which penalties were inflicted etc., I suggest we move on. Too bad there is such a lag between races!
I get it that some are upset about the outcome of the last race. I’ve been there when I’ve really had a dog in the hunt.
Personally this year I don’t, so I’m a little more relaxed about the politics, penalties, etc. There are a lot of things I would change about MotoGP but I am not a decider, so I’ll just be a spectator.
I admire Marc Marquez’s accomplishments as a racer. He is not a favorite or even among the truly great in my book, as controversial as that may be in some realms of this forum. I’ve posted about this before and it has nothing to do with rossi, who I will also not put in the gallery of the greats, for some of the same reasons.
Mostly at this point for me it has to do with moving along and watching some young new racers carve out some limelight, if they can. If Marc Marquez can keep it going, hats off to him and I will congratulate him when he does, as long as it’s fair and square. Yeah, the fair and square is another debate.
I’ll bring it back to “the incident”one last time. Neither MM nor Bags fell off during that battle. That used to be the yardstick for skirmishes. Win some lose some. Spencer/Roberts, Senna/Prost and more. Today it feels like every fan is demanding that “justice” must somehow be dispensed. It is never fair in motor racing of any kind. If not for this, or that, or the other there could always be a different outcome.
Bottom line for me here is this: if Marc Marquez was white as snow and had never made contact with or pushed another racer off line to gain a position, then I would be equally as incensed as some others are in this case. We all know that is not the case. I rest mine.
Marquez is now older and still has the spark. He is on a competitive bike and healthy. Similar to watching Pecco but for different reasons, I am curious to see what kind of Marquez we will see at the end of the year. Again, this is why we watch.
As to who hit who when, why and which penalties were inflicted etc., I suggest we move on. Too bad there is such a lag between races!
I get it that some are upset about the outcome of the last race. I’ve been there when I’ve really had a dog in the hunt.
Personally this year I don’t, so I’m a little more relaxed about the politics, penalties, etc. There are a lot of things I would change about MotoGP but I am not a decider, so I’ll just be a spectator.
I admire Marc Marquez’s accomplishments as a racer. He is not a favorite or even among the truly great in my book, as controversial as that may be in some realms of this forum. I’ve posted about this before and it has nothing to do with rossi, who I will also not put in the gallery of the greats, for some of the same reasons.
Mostly at this point for me it has to do with moving along and watching some young new racers carve out some limelight, if they can. If Marc Marquez can keep it going, hats off to him and I will congratulate him when he does, as long as it’s fair and square. Yeah, the fair and square is another debate.
I’ll bring it back to “the incident”one last time. Neither MM nor Bags fell off during that battle. That used to be the yardstick for skirmishes. Win some lose some. Spencer/Roberts, Senna/Prost and more. Today it feels like every fan is demanding that “justice” must somehow be dispensed. It is never fair in motor racing of any kind. If not for this, or that, or the other there could always be a different outcome.
Bottom line for me here is this: if Marc Marquez was white as snow and had never made contact with or pushed another racer off line to gain a position, then I would be equally as incensed as some others are in this case. We all know that is not the case. I rest mine.
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Then you would also say Marquez and Mir just touched in the sprint race huh? Well us Marc fans say Marc was to blame and that his penalty was deserving. So why would we not say the same about Pecco? For the hundredth time Marcs reputation has nothing to do with Peccos actions when battling Marc. Thats an unfair and illogical statement that gets said everytime in defense of Pecco
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Thats fine by me. Out of curiosity who is on your list of greats? Please just don't say Stoner who as great as he was underperformed all but two seasons he rode. And don't say JLo who had a losing record against Marc.
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That was in response to 22's question. I get your point, I really do. I guess I'm wrong but when a rider passes as Marc did and then leaves the barn door open, I fully expect the other rider to take the cut back as I've seen a million times. All Pecco did was hold his line. To me it was a racing incident. Marc's clattering into Mir was not the same, IMO as well as RD. Mir did not pass and then leave the door wide the .... open. Marc just ran into him. Slow POS Honda or not, that's on Marc. There was no room to go inside of Mir and pass. It was bad form. The 2 incidents are apples and oranges in my eyes.
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Fair enough. I just don't agree with Marc leaving the door open if he was on the race line. I mean there was room but if contact is made there was there really room? Again my biggest issue here is with RD. They are so wishy washy with handing out penalties for this action. The one they gave Fabio last year was absolutely criminal. I will say this. If the roles were reversed here and Portimão I would say Marc should also get a penalty. Was the move Pecco made terrible? No. However we are going down a slippery slope because I only see this continuously getting worse. Sometimes a penalty needs to be given before things get out of hand. I think we all can agree we expect Pecco and Marc to make more passes like this in the future. This could end badly but a slap on the wrist give the position back could send a message to both of them that this won't be tolerated. I know I am being hard on Pecco but really I am being hard on RD.
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Like all of us, I have several favorite riders past and present. The qualifier is that, though I watched F1 and endurance racing in the 60’s and 70’s as a child, then teenager, I only tangentially paid attention to bike racing during that time even as I was riding motorcycles. So I don’t know enough about the sport during that time to really have any opinions.
I moved back to California in the mid 80’s and that’s when I started paying attention to motorcycle racing. It was a grand time in the sport and one name stands above all others from that time all the way up to the present: Eddie Lawson from Upland, California.
Besides the 4 world titles, what stands out for me is that I never once heard Lawson complain about anything or anybody. In fact my favorite racing anecdote involves the incident at the Laguna US GP when he sustained a broken leg and was eliminated from title contention when his brakes fell out at the old turn one, the fastest part of the old track. The mechanic had forgotten to fully fasten the bolts holding the calipers in. The team owner asked Eddie if he wanted the man fired. Lawson replied that he wanted that guy taking care of his brakes for the rest of the season.
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Excellent. Thats before my time. I love hearing stories about rides from the past. Great answer.
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In the post race Gresini celebration, one of Marc's crew were talking about the incident. He told Marc Pecco got you from behind. Marc said; "I held back a little bit there, otherwise I would have highsided." Marc told Tardozzi he need to buy Marc new leathers.
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Uh uh
Without displaying particular rancour he definitely didn’t consider the pass legitimate, but said he was the only one of the two riders involved who could take effective evasive action and pretty much implied most other riders couldn’t have done so. He also said it was possible Bagnaia might have gottten out of the incident still on his bike while he himself was definitely going down if he hadn’t reacted, and that sometimes this was the how things worked out in bike racing ie the rider in the wrong was advantaged.
MM is on the record in the motogp press about the incident post race.
Without displaying particular rancour he definitely didn’t consider the pass legitimate, but said he was the only one of the two riders involved who could take effective evasive action and pretty much implied most other riders couldn’t have done so. He also said it was possible Bagnaia might have gottten out of the incident still on his bike while he himself was definitely going down if he hadn’t reacted, and that sometimes this was the how things worked out in bike racing ie the rider in the wrong was advantaged.
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We had a similar progression then.
I was a motorsports fan from my early teens and started watching car racing live at the track from my mid teens, the local Australian variety of course. I became a fairly avid F1 fan once that started being telecast live here, Formula Cosworth being a pretty fair spectacle anyway and coming with the benefit of having one of the leading exponents of F1 driving back then in Alan Jones to support/ root for as you guys say but we don’t.
At school we followed late career Ago somewhat which you could really only do in the bike press after the events, but when they started telecasting 500 gp bike racing in Australia this quickly supplanted F1 for me, again with help from Wayne Gardner being competitive.
I was a Gardner fan then and only saw Eddie’s last 2 titles, but partly in retrospect Lawson was the man for me as well and stands comparison with any rider imo, particularly in regard to being of high character as you say.
Gardner was in some ways like MM, with little in the way of fear, and just went ahead and rode an impossible bike, but unlike MM was only able to stay on the bike enough times to win the title once, although 20 odd race wins is not to be sneezed at, particularly in that era.
Eddie changed bikes and won straight away on that Honda, with he and Erv Kanemoto actually taming the tthing. Mick Doohan early in his GP career reputedly asked Eddie for advice on how to ride the Honda, which was presenting Mick with difficulties at the time.
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Agree with you, door wasn’t open, Bagnaia made a move which involved the pass not being clean from the get go which would have taken one or both of them down if MM hadn’t reacted, and a rider at or near MM’s level was probably required to be capable of reacting.
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To be totally honest some of my attitude to Bagnaia was due to him being a Rossi protege, which he may have moved on from himself, although Rossi still seems to regard him as both a protege which is fair enough, but also his agent against MM going by his proud post race pronouncement that he was advising/had advised Bagnaia in regard to how he needed to deal with MM. So if I and others haven’t let Rossi/Stoner, Rossi/Lorenzo and Rossi/MM go then neither has Valentino at least in regard to MM. As far as character goes perhaps at least partly reflecting my bias he has given the appearance of being somewhat entitled, including his attitude to team-mates/other Ducati riders, although he was likely entirely correct that backing him ahead of other Ducati riders was the best strategy if the goal was to have a Ducati rider win the riders’ title. I also don’t think the DUI incident reflected well on him, particularly since he could buy a new Lamborghini and hire a high level driver to take him home in it from a financial viewpoint.
As we have discussed previously he does look to be the guy who has mastered the current technology bikes best, has delivered when it counted under high pressure to win 2 titles, and certainly further displayed great riding talent under pressure in the most recent race.
Ali is an interesting case, someone once put him up as an example of another highly elite sportsman who employed his fans as a weapon against his opponents when I asked for an example other than a certain bike racer. I saw Ali as a little different, probably not really malevolent or malicious with his off-track antics, more hyping up his bouts as boxers do and not really seeking advantage over his components. Joe Frazier however who was the major butt of said antics reputedly went to his grave hating Ali for calling him a gorilla etc, and his opinion is I guess the one which counts the most.
A deal with Ducati at any cost probably is Faustian as you put it, particularly if motivated by numerology. If he feels time’s winged chariot at his heels at age 31 and just wants to be on a competitive bike in the years remaining to him and after the 4 years he has just had not so much imo. I actually had a positive attitude to Valentino in 2013 after his 2 years with Ducati and considered him genuine in saying he was glad just to be competitive again. Imo Agostini, Rossi and Marquez can all be judged by better standards than raw number of titles. At the moment Rossi having won one more title does imo to an extent fairly reflect differences in approach and riding style, I don’t think Valentino would have had the accident MM had in 2020, particularly not riding with the motive MM had with little or no prospect of gaining points.
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I watched that era too. He was a great rider and that is a good story about the brakes, I bet that bloke was very careful on the brakes after that!
Different bikes and tyres back then but I enjoyed watching Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan more. They got the bikes more out of shape, particularly Schwantz and Doohan. Lawson kept it all alot tidier which worked well for him. Rainey was very bloody good. .... way for his career to end
That determination and ability to stuff a bike so hard into a corner and come out the other side places Marquez above them all for me but yes it is hard to compare different eras with their tyres and bike differences. I will make the point that Marquez is doing his stuff on a heavier machine. His ability to save that front still stuns me.
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Finance could get in the way of the decision. Personally I see M Marquez as being a greater threat to Ducati on a KTM or Aprilia than Martin
Historically we have seen the team that has the winning rider tends to have one rider who dominates over the other rider ensuring the best points haul for that individual rider, where the team that wins the team trophy tends to have a situation where the 2 riders come out fairly even in points, certainly not always. However with Ducati's dominance I don't see there being a problem of having the top 2 riders in the same team currently so no reason not to pick the best 2 riders.
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It is absolutely official that Audi have told Ducati Corse to tighten their belts, I read in one of the articles #22 linked to that this may be a consideration for Martin, who might not be offered even his current salary at Pramac to ride for the Ducati factory team in 2025. .
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