Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España 2017

Keshav said:

Seems like too much of a coincidence that it happened only (as far as we've heard) on the two factory Yams. If the disintegration of the tires was soley a result of Yam engineers making a huge error in judgement - that was quite the ....-up.

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Zarco's tyre was abused quite badly, yet he came 4th and supposedly Rossi and Vinales are better riders :giggle:

Adnan said:

I watched a documentary on the tyres and basically one one person knows the allocation and after that the other guys mount the tyres. No one can select the tyres they want per se.




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So does this mean that like amateur races the teams take their wheels to Michelin and they fit what they like?

How about this for a conspiracy, Zarco was in front of them at race end :giggle: Will he be on the podium in Le Mans?

Adnan said:

I watched a documentary on the tyres and basically one one person knows the allocation and after that the other guys mount the tyres. No one can select the tyres they want per se.




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Ever seen someone play cards using a marked deck?

Keshav said:

Ever seen someone play cards using a marked deck?

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Only once, he didn't play though some guy flattened him.

Adnan said:

I watched a documentary on the tyres and basically one one person knows the allocation and after that the other guys mount the tyres. No one can select the tyres they want per se.




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Theory.

Every tyre has an individual and unique barcode.

Yes, no team or rider can request a specific tyre, I mean, let us not forget that each team/rider gets the same number and type of tyres allocated as does each and every rider.

Now, given that all tyres are manufactured equally, it goes without saying that no rider 'needs' to request a specific tyre as they are firstly all made equal and secondly, all riders get the same number of tyres.

Now to the hypothetical conspiracy.

Problem is, that as each tyre is barcoded it is readily identifiable and thus if it is of different construction, known faulty or what not, it is as identifiable by means of the barcode.

Where is the conspiracy?

Well, if someone wanted to influence the outcome and if tyres were produced unequally, the barcode allows the provision of tyres to an identified rider (for positive or negative results)

Not saying that this is happening at all, but will say (and have worked at races where 'random' tyre allocation is in place and have seen what happens), that all systems can be subverted if people want to subvert them, be that deliberately, accidentally or corruptly.

This all said, IMO only here but MotoGP is not a club event, nor a national level series and thus the ability to do that I have outlined above is greatly reduced as the people doing the allocations will be extremely closely scrutinised by teams, officials, riders and media such that any sniff of corruption would creep to the surface

Gaz said:

Theory.

Every tyre has an individual and unique barcode.

Yes, no team or rider can request a specific tyre, I mean, let us not forget that each team/rider gets the same number and type of tyres allocated as does each and every rider.

Now, given that all tyres are manufactured equally, it goes without saying that no rider 'needs' to request a specific tyre as they are firstly all made equal and secondly, all riders get the same number of tyres.

Now to the hypothetical conspiracy.

Problem is, that as each tyre is barcoded it is readily identifiable and thus if it is of different construction, known faulty or what not, it is as identifiable by means of the barcode.

Where is the conspiracy?

Well, if someone wanted to influence the outcome and if tyres were produced unequally, the barcode allows the provision of tyres to an identified rider (for positive or negative results)

Not saying that this is happening at all, but will say (and have worked at races where 'random' tyre allocation is in place and have seen what happens), that all systems can be subverted if people want to subvert them, be that deliberately, accidentally or corruptly.

This all said, IMO only here but MotoGP is not a club event, nor a national level series and thus the ability to do that I have outlined above is greatly reduced as the people doing the allocations will be extremely closely scrutinised by teams, officials, riders and media such that any sniff of corruption would creep to the surface

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I don't think this would happen, purely from self interest if not moral rectitude. It is too high risk, for an international company like Michelin or for Dorna, it would just competely kill their businesses, particularly Dorna's which is actually the sport, if they were proved to have actually manipulated race results. There are many ways they can slant (and have slanted imo) things up front with plausible deniability, such as restricting the variety of tyres, rather than deliberately giving out defective tyres to a particular rider.

Then again, who would have thought VW/Audi would have perpetrated Dieselgate? Even that eventually was further proof that a successful conspiracy is very difficult however, things usually come out in the end.

double

michaelm said:

I don't think this would happen, purely from self interest if not moral rectitude. It is too high risk, for an international company like Michelin or for Dorna, it would just competely kill their businesses, particularly Dorna's which is actually the sport, if they were proved to have actually manipulated race results. There are many ways they can slant (and have slanted imo) things up front with plausible deniability, such as restricting the variety of tyres, rather than deliberately giving out defective tyres to a particular rider.

Then again, who would have thought VW/Audi would have perpetrated Dieselgate? Even that eventually was further proof that a successful conspiracy is very difficult however, things usually come out in the end.

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Started reading your post and was going to mention VW but you beat yourself to the punch.

VW just took back my Jetta TDI. Worked out pretty sweet. Got my full buying price + $7,500.00 from the lawsuit and $350.00 from Bosch. Not to menton, having a car for three years for no money.

Keshav said:

Started reading your post and was going to mention VW but you beat yourself to the punch.

VW just took back my Jetta TDI. Worked out pretty sweet. Got my full buying price + $7,500.00 from the lawsuit and $350.00 from Bosch. Not to menton, having a car for three years for no money.

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The whole thing beggars belief.

The only explanation I can conceive of is that it was an everyone is doing it thing, and low emission diesel passenger cars are a scam in general.

Keshav said:

Ever seen someone play cards using a marked deck?

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Keshav said:

Started reading your post and was going to mention VW but you beat yourself to the punch.

VW just took back my Jetta TDI. Worked out pretty sweet. Got my full buying price + $7,500.00 from the lawsuit and $350.00 from Bosch. Not to menton, having a car for three years for no money.

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Wow. You got paid like a test driver for VW.

Gaz said:

....Where is the conspiracy?

Well, if someone wanted to influence the outcome and if tyres were produced unequally, the barcode allows the provision of tyres to an identified rider (for positive or negative results)

Not saying that this is happening at all, but will say (and have worked at races where 'random' tyre allocation is in place and have seen what happens), that all systems can be subverted if people want to subvert them, be that deliberately, accidentally or corruptly........

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Let us look at the big picture, which goes more to the normal tire conspiracy on this forum. After the race, there is now precise information for every tire on every bike. Thus, Michelin will know that Zarco liked this formulation better than Rossi and Vinales. The next formulation could easily be made slightly differently to suit VR better. And this sounds more like what the riders said regarding inconsistency from race to race.

So there ya' go. The system can easily be rigged.

Iamapony said:

Wow. You got paid like a test driver for VW.



Let us look at the big picture, which goes more to the normal tire conspiracy on this forum. After the race, there is now precise information for every tire on every bike. Thus, Michelin will know that Zarco liked this formulation better than Rossi and Vinales. The next formulation could easily be made slightly differently to suit VR better. And this sounds more like what the riders said regarding inconsistency from race to race.



So there ya' go. The system can easily be rigged.

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Yeah I agree that it can be done in theory but I think the conspiracy theories are way off from the truth. The amount of scrutiny that goes in to the process in general I don't think there is any significant reason to believe the tyres are leaning towards one rider than another. just look at the standings


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Adnan said:

Yeah I agree that it can be done in theory but I think the conspiracy theories are way off from the truth. The amount of scrutiny that goes in to the process in general I don't think there is any significant reason to believe the tyres are leaning towards one rider than another. just look at the standings.....

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I may not be a big proponent of some tire conspiracies, either, but that doesn't mean it isn't still possible to do. I even found holes in the video description that you posted that makes cheating possible before the race.

The barcodes are simply stickers. Michelin puts the barcodes on the tires at the track. MotoGP Tech then randomly selects sets of tires from the list of barcodes to go to each rider. Michelin then delivers those tires to the teams. Stickers can be moved or changed. Tech isn't actually touching the tires. They just look at a list of numbers. In addition, does Michelin print extra stickers in-case something happens to a sticker? Would Tech know if there are extra stickers used? We must assume so.

His description of selecting an allocation of already grouped tires to go to each team is safer. But even then, the Michelin guy said they mount the tires on Thursday night. Okay. So where is Tech on Thursday night? Not mounting tires, I bet.

It was unclear to me which system is usually used or why he talked about two different methods. Regardless, if it was important enough to cheat, it can still be done, in my opinion.

michaelm said:

The whole thing beggars belief.

The only explanation I can conceive of is that it was an everyone is doing it thing, and low emission diesel passenger cars are a scam in general.

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Laterly - four more manufacturers. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

Keshav said:

Laterly - four more manufacturers. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

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One fact that is not mentioned is that regardless of what fuel your vehicle uses they all fail when it comes to "real world" emissions. The problem is that tests undertaken in a controlled environment do not reflect issues such as traffic jams, idling at traffic lights etc. Everyone is picking on diesels as VW broke the law. IMO thats what has to be looked at and not just penalising diesel cars.
There are far more lorries, buses/coaches, ships and airplanes that pump out far more particulates than all the world's cars combined.

Theo said:

One fact that is not mentioned is that regardless of what fuel your vehicle uses they all fail when it comes to "real world" emissions. The problem is that tests undertaken in a controlled environment do not reflect issues such as traffic jams, idling at traffic lights etc. Everyone is picking on diesels as VW broke the law. IMO thats what has to be looked at and not just penalising diesel cars.
There are far more lorries, buses/coaches, ships and airplanes that pump out far more particulates than all the world's cars combined.

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A work colleague who is a mechanical engineer used to do the emissions testing for various cars manufactured in Australia when he graduated from Uni. He told me how in the 80's Holden met the emissions requirements by running an air pump that injected fresh air into the vehicles exhaust system to dilute the exhuast gases and bring them down to a level that met requirements. Makes VW sound like Greenpeace.

AJV80 said:

A work colleague who is a mechanical engineer used to do the emissions testing for various cars manufactured in Australia when he graduated from Uni. He told me how in the 80's Holden met the emissions requirements by running an air pump that injected fresh air into the vehicles exhaust system to dilute the exhuast gases and bring them down to a level that met requirements. Makes VW sound like Greenpeace.

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The air pump was in the system after leaving the engine?

Funny but I haven't thought about it in years, but when I was 19 I had a job working for EPA. I was a clerk... but there wasn't really enough work to keep me busy, so the commissioner used to request me as a chauffeur because he liked the way I drove, and he would lend me out as a driver to take cars over to Frost Street in Brooklyn where they did the actual EPA tests. I got to drive all the new cars a year before they were on the market.

AJV80 said:

A work colleague who is a mechanical engineer used to do the emissions testing for various cars manufactured in Australia when he graduated from Uni. He told me how in the 80's Holden met the emissions requirements by running an air pump that injected fresh air into the vehicles exhaust system to dilute the exhuast gases and bring them down to a level that met requirements. Makes VW sound like Greenpeace.

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A common strategy. Secondary air injection/smog pump.

Iamapony said:

Wow. You got paid like a test driver for VW.

Let us look at the big picture, which goes more to the normal tire conspiracy on this forum. After the race, there is now precise information for every tire on every bike. Thus, Michelin will know that Zarco liked this formulation better than Rossi and Vinales. The next formulation could easily be made slightly differently to suit VR better. And this sounds more like what the riders said regarding inconsistency from race to race.

So there ya' go. The system can easily be rigged.

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That is entirely what I am actually saying in response to Adnan.

The tyres are individually identifiable, thus if someone wanted to 'rig' it, they can easily do so but sheer fact of knowing that tyres with a specific set of barcodes are different (good or bad) and thus provide them to a desired rider to achieve an effect.

As for you comments regarding Zarco, for that to occur (and to add a conspiracy) the people making the decisions would need to know the differences in setup that was used between both factory guys and Zarco as it is more likely than not that the issue was setup, not tyre so to change the tyre construct may produce a worse result for the person or persons it is intended to benefit were the setup differences not considered.

The other and over-riding factor to such a conspiracy is that a number of people have to have a serious set of specific data and must conspire to circumvent the rules, certain officials, media, team members and riders to provide a product that can simply be destroyed by a poor setup choice anyway

Adnan said:

Yeah I agree that it can be done in theory but I think the conspiracy theories are way off from the truth. The amount of scrutiny that goes in to the process in general I don't think there is any significant reason to believe the tyres are leaning towards one rider than another. just look at the standings

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To keep on a conspiracy line I would say that the standing mean absolutely nothing if you (like many) assume that the conspiracy is to favour one or two riders over the others.

There has been a theory stated here previously that does not involve favouritism of one bike, manufacturer, team or rider but rather the production of close racing with no pre-defined outcome which can be done by use of the tyres and with no real impact on the standings as essentially, the tyres become a lottery to keep the standing close rather than have runaways .

In this event, were it to occur the standings mean squat other than it allows people to believe that we have a close, competitive season which in effect is only close and competitive due to the interference.

Again, all conspiracy and something that I am not suggesting can occur, but using as an example of why standing could mean squat within a manipulated world.

Iamapony said:

I may not be a big proponent of some tire conspiracies, either, but that doesn't mean it isn't still possible to do. I even found holes in the video description that you posted that makes cheating possible before the race.

The barcodes are simply stickers. Michelin puts the barcodes on the tires at the track. MotoGP Tech then randomly selects sets of tires from the list of barcodes to go to each rider. Michelin then delivers those tires to the teams. Stickers can be moved or changed. Tech isn't actually touching the tires. They just look at a list of numbers. In addition, does Michelin print extra stickers in-case something happens to a sticker? Would Tech know if there are extra stickers used? We must assume so.

His description of selecting an allocation of already grouped tires to go to each team is safer. But even then, the Michelin guy said they mount the tires on Thursday night. Okay. So where is Tech on Thursday night? Not mounting tires, I bet.

It was unclear to me which system is usually used or why he talked about two different methods. Regardless, if it was important enough to cheat, it can still be done, in my opinion.

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TBH, there is no fool proof system if someone wishes to cheat or if the stakes are high enough for that person.

Like all things, a system is only as good as those involved and those that oversee such system and as has been seen time and again throughout the world, sometimes that system can become infected and we end up with corruption to levels unheard of and then start to question results.

The only truly close to fool proof system would be for the teams to manufacturer their own tyres to suit their own bikes and riders, and that is not going to happen