2024 MotoGP Round 7: Gran Premio d'Italia Brembo - Mugello

dogfight said:

GP24 at the beginning of the season is not a clear winner vs GP23, but It will be better as Ducati will be able to fix new issues.

So what is the time frame of the "beginning of the season"? In my opinion it is the first 6 races, both in F1 and MotoGP.

Now, race 7, GP24 is better, and will get even higher level. But in which area, it is still in debate. You guys believe that "better in every area" which is laughable, You guys cannot point out any evidence, just write down your feelings.

The true better objects are the ones riding bikes number 1 and 89.

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Are you not paying attention? We have done nothing but give you reason. What evidence have you given us that the gp24 is not better? Areo is better. Acceleration is better. Braking is better. How do I know this? Because riders have said as much. Show me one piece of evidence that someone has said that the gp23 that started last season is as good as the gp24 that is continuing to evolve. If you can't then quit trying to Undermind opinions backed up with facts. You have given zero and are attempting to claim we have no evidence. Are you that ....... dumb or just a troll? Or is it both.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Gp24 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th.

Gp23 4th, 7th, 9th, 13th.

Question do you think Morbidelli 5 races in is a better rider than Digi year two?

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First good result for Morbido, it was a question of time. Digia actually have improved from last year as you now know. Morbido is not an amateur, he's a good rider and is finding his pace again.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Because riders have said as much.

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Links or it didn't happen.

gui22a said:

Had Pecco not crashed here and there, had Martin no crashed yesterday, if that, if this, if if if..

I understand why MM fans are worried now that the other riders can see his data and secrets and have close the gap to all the advantages he had and he no longer can make a big difference. You know what? That's the true reason why Dalligna wanted MM onboard a Ducati.

Times are different now, my friend. MM won't have an easy life. Stop crying and enjoy the show.

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Peccos crashes were unforced errors. So were Martins. The two I pointed out by Marc were not his fault. Especially Portugal. Braking issues are unfortunate and part of the game but so far Marc has not made any mistakes like Pecco and Martin have.

gui22a said:

Had Pecco not crashed here and there, had Martin no crashed yesterday, if that, if this, if if if..

I understand why MM fans are worried now that the other riders can see his data and secrets and have close the gap to all the advantages he had and he no longer can make a big difference. You know what? That's the true reason why Dalligna wanted MM onboard a Ducati.

Times are different now, my friend. MM won't have an easy life. Stop crying and enjoy the show.

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Who cares if anyone can see his data? It doesn't mean anything if you can't replicate what he does, and it doesn't sound like anyone knows how to replicate how he rides. No different than Casey whom it was said that his data was incomprehensible to replicate because it defied all known logic of how to ride a motorcycle. He's the only GP23 rider to keep up with the GP24 riders. That should speak volumes to how fast he remains as a rider. MM won't have an easy life? Neither do Martin or Pecco lol.

gui22a said:

Had Pecco not crashed here and there, had Martin no crashed yesterday, if that, if this, if if if..

I understand why MM fans are worried now that the other riders can see his data and secrets and have close the gap to all the advantages he had and he no longer can make a big difference. You know what? That's the true reason why Dalligna wanted MM onboard a Ducati.

Times are different now, my friend. MM won't have an easy life. Stop crying and enjoy the show.

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Difference being that MDub only pointed out issues that MM had that were no fault of his own.

Read carefully before reply. GP24 is now better, after "beginning of the season". but you should point out evidence if you say what areas is better.

Do you know what is fallacy? If you say something, you must prove that it is correct by showing evidence in debate. It is not me who have to prove that you are wrong, but you have to prove that you are right firrst.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Are you not paying attention? We have done nothing but give you reason. What evidence have you given us that the gp24 is not better? Areo is better. Acceleration is better. Braking is better. How do I know this? Because riders have said as much. Show me one piece of evidence that someone has said that the gp23 that started last season is as good as the gp24 that is continuing to evolve. If you can't then quit trying to Undermind opinions backed up with facts. You have given zero and are attempting to claim we have no evidence. Are you that ....... dumb or just a troll? Or is it both.

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dogfight said:

Read carefully before reply. GP24 is now better, after "beginning of the season". but you should point out evidence if you say what areas is better.

Do you know what is fallacy? If you say something, you must prove that it is correct by showing evidence in debate. It is not me who have to prove that you are wrong, but you have to prove that you are right firrst.

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You are being selective. I have pointed out evidence with results and observations to which you have ignored and not provided a response or any evidence the other way. You ignore my proof and sound like a broken record asking where the proof is. Take your own advice and learn how to rebut in a debate. You have yet to disprove anything I have said. You have only tried to undermine what I said by being selective.

You said that gp24 is better in acceleration, aero, cornering, and braking. So where is the evidence in your posts?

In my post I said GP24 is now better but I dont know which area GP24 is better, you list almost every area. So you have to prove your points.

If you cannot show evidences, but asking me to prove you are wrong. It is the simplest instance/form of Fallacy:
"burden of proof fallacy".

MdubSTYLIE said:

You are being selective. I have pointed out evidence with results and observations to which you have ignored and not provided a response or any evidence the other way. You ignore my proof and sound like a broken record asking where the proof is. Take your own advice and learn how to rebut in a debate. You have yet to disprove anything I have said. You have only tried to undermine what I said by being selective.

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Are we gonna have this exact conversation every race?

dogfight said:

You said that gp24 is better in acceleration, aero, cornering, and braking. So where is the evidence in your posts?

In my post I said GP24 is now better but I dont know which area GP24 is better, you list almost every area. So you have to prove your points.

If you cannot show evidences, but asking me to prove you are wrong. It is the simplest instance/form of Fallacy.

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"I believe that the difference between the gp23 and the gp24 will be bigger than that between the gp23 and gp22," Ducati Corse Technical Director Davide Barana revealed to Marca, before explaining in more detail the areas in which the development of the Ducati for 2024: "We worked on all fronts, because a motorcycle is made up of many elements. Performance depends on a set of things, not just one, and we continued with this philosophy. Next year we will have a better engine with a little more power. "

"We were very careful to maintain the driveability of the engine, because last year we struggled a bit to recover that of the old engine. This is why we brought the new engine to Valencia, but we worked a lot on the calibration. We carried out some tests which went well because Pecco and the other riders were happy and noticed the increase in performance and handling."

The gp24 will also benefit from a new aero package, which will be shown for the first time in Sepang.

"You shouldn't think of that this is something never seen before, but the differences are quite evident."




So thats better at acceleration because of more power and drivability. New improved aero which helps on many facets like braking. Right of the gate the riders noticed an increase in performance and handling. Don't even think about ....... responding to me unless you back it up with evidence.

MichaelBolton said:

Are we gonna have this exact conversation every race?

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thats all the trolls have left

Good points, but not the backup for ALL of the areas you listed: acceleration, aero, breaking, and cornering.

The article is a pre-Sepang test article. Everything in the article at that point in time is supposed to be, not fact.

In the post, you just have: "performance and handling.". Performance does not entirely means acceleration because rear grip is very important in acceleration especially at high leaning angle, but horse power can be seen on dyno, so I am quite OK with this while the bike is upright. But dont forget that the 24 has severe chatter in the first races which hampers bike acceleration out of the corner. Now it seems chatter goes away. so i am OK. Handling? Seams OK.

Aero?? NEW aero does not necessarily mean better. Why are you confident that NEW aero will be better? Have you been following F1 and see new 2024 Mercedes aero?

Where is the breaking, cornering?

Your burden of proof still exists.

MdubSTYLIE said:

"I believe that the difference between the gp23 and the gp24 will be bigger than that between the gp23 and gp22," Ducati Corse Technical Director Davide Barana revealed to Marca, before explaining in more detail the areas in which the development of the Ducati for 2024: "We worked on all fronts, because a motorcycle is made up of many elements. Performance depends on a set of things, not just one, and we continued with this philosophy. Next year we will have a better engine with a little more power. "

"We were very careful to maintain the driveability of the engine, because last year we struggled a bit to recover that of the old engine. This is why we brought the new engine to Valencia, but we worked a lot on the calibration. We carried out some tests which went well because Pecco and the other riders were happy and noticed the increase in performance and handling."

The gp24 will also benefit from a new aero package, which will be shown for the first time in Sepang.

"You shouldn't think of that this is something never seen before, but the differences are quite evident."




So thats better at acceleration because of more power and drivability. New improved aero which helps on many facets like braking. Right of the gate the riders noticed an increase in performance and handling. Don't even think about ....... responding to me unless you back it up with evidence.

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dogfight said:

Good points, but not the backup for ALL of the areas you listed: acceleration, aero, breaking, and cornering.

The article is a pre-Sepang test article. Everything in the article at that point in time is supposed to be, not fact.

In the post, you just have: "performance and handling.". Performance does not entirely means acceleration because rear grip is very important in acceleration especially at high leaning angle, but horse power can be seen on dyno, so I am quite OK with this while the bike is upright. But dont forget that the 24 has severe chatter in the first races which hampers bike acceleration out of the corner. Now it seems chatter goes away. so i am OK. Handling? Seams OK.

Aero?? NEW aero does not necessarily mean better. Why are you confident that NEW aero will be better? Have you been following F1 and see new 2024 Mercedes aero?

Where is the breaking, cornering?

Your burden of proof still exists.

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Do you also believe the earth is flat? Or are you just being thick? I'm over it. I could care less what your factless opinion is. Fact is I said since testing it has been said the gp24 is better. I showed evidence. I gave examples based on results and what I witnessed. You have done nothing but attempt to say my evidence isn't evidence and nothing more. You are not even debating. You are just trying to tell me how to debate. I have no reason to continue going around in a circle with you. Your user name is perfect for you. All bark no bite.

your evidence is not enough. Show 4 points, prove 1. Even counting your untested aero is okay, so where is the remaining 2: breaking and cornering?

You made some points in your statement so you have to prove those points. If you cannot prove them all, you can simply withdraw the points you cannot show arguments.

You are once again making one more fallacy: Personal Attack Fallacy: not focus to the points, but do personal attack instead. This type of fallacy seams very popular here, but for me it does not make any sense. I had been managing one big F1 forum for years, I know it downs to forum admins who should set the standard which is very low here.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Do you also believe the earth is flat? Or are you just being thick? I'm over it. I could care less what your factless opinion is. Fact is I said since testing it has been said the gp24 is better. I showed evidence. I gave examples based on results and what I witnessed. You have done nothing but attempt to say my evidence isn't evidence and nothing more. You are not even debating. You are just trying to tell me how to debate. I have no reason to continue going around in a circle with you. Your user name is perfect for you. All bark no bite.

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MichaelBolton said:

Ducati's blue livery was the best thing about the entire race

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It’s nice to see special liveries, but the Azure didn’t come through. Looked like a French bike up close and almost looked like a Gresini when watching the race on my phone. They could have done better with a bit of effort.

The racing this weekend was okay. I was hoping for more slipstreaming down the straights, but the riders were struggling to stay close enough at the start of the straight. Vinales and the Aprilia look incredible carrying corner speed, but the ride height device allows most of the top riders to thwart his attacks. Plus, Mav looked terrible in and out of Bucine. That hurt him this weekend. He’s slipped from 5th in the championship. Aprilia are looking flat as we enter the dog days of summer.

The only bright spot in an otherwise processional grand prix was Enea’s late charge. He still has it, and watching him overtake Marquez and Martin at the last minute was good sport. It’s too bad for him that he can’t use the tires more consistently over race distance. He might win more regularly.

Championship race is back in the critical stage after Martin’s mishap on Saturday. Pecco is building a streak as he often does around this time of year. If not for the inexplicable sprint crash at Catalunya, he’d be looking at 4 in a row. Game on. Martin will need to weather this storm. When factory Ducati get everything right, Pecco will not be beaten. This could be difficult for Jorge to accept, but he did a good job of taking points after Pecco tried to lure him in on the last laps. Not sure if he could have beaten Enea or if he got caught sleeping.

dogfight said:

your evidence is not enough. Show 4 points, prove 1. Even counting your untested aero is okay, so where is the remaining 2: breaking and cornering?

You made some points in your statement so you have to prove those points. If you cannot prove them all, you can simply withdraw the points you cannot show arguments.

You are once again making one more fallacy: Personal Attack Fallacy: not focus to the points, but do personal attack instead. This type of fallacy seams very popular here, but for me it does not make any sense. I had been managing one big F1 forum for years, I know it downs to forum admins who should set the standard which is very low here.

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Woof woof

Looks like you are now speechless.

Take a break before deciding either spending more time to find evidence or withdrawing some items in the list. You have plenty of time.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Woof woof

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dogfight said:

Looks like you are now speechless.

Take a break before deciding either spending more time to find evidence or withdrawing some items in the list. You have plenty of time.

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I'm good. You never proved me wrong so I'll call it a win. Like I said. I have no reason to continue with you as you are not debating anything or disproving anything. You are just trying to tell me the rules of debating. You lost the argument at the start. GP24 is better. Period. Thanks for playing come back soon. Or don't I could careless. You contribute nothing to the forum.

The most boring race of the season so far

It seems like pecco and martin taking turns to have a blunder every other race

MM still in the game through consistency despite being taken out here and brake issues there. Time to shine in assen and Sachsenring respectively