2024 MotoGP Round 7: Gran Premio d'Italia Brembo - Mugello

warthog1 · Jun 2, 2024

As mentioned earlier by Mdub, I am also a huge fan of MM. Best I have seen in the almost 40 years I've been watching. He came from seasons of injury on what became an absolute POS of a GP m/cycle.
He has had to learn a new machine and rebirth some of his self belief and love of m/cycle racing. He has done that pretty damn quick and is still learning aspects of how to ride it and how to set it up. Yes he will still get a bit better but unfortunately the GP24 will continue to develop and the machine gap will widen.
This season shows he is still very damn good though, others on GP23s who have more experience on a Duke than he, aint near his race pace.

If he gets current machinery next year it is going to be good!
However I believe it still will be close. He used to have a big margin on corner entry that has been reduced by aero and some extent ride height. We dont see him finding the front end limit with big front slides in practice anymore. Front tyre grip is now more of a precipice even for him. That aero and ride height plus to an extent soft tyre carcasses, has negated a big advantage he once had. Despite that he is still there with the best on an older machine so still has it. Great to watch

surendhar · Jun 2, 2024

MichaelBolton said:
Worst race of the season so far, I was waiting for an error up front to spice up the race a little bit but nothing. Despite Pecco's commanding win, I think Enea is the MVP of the race, great last couple of laps by him and Martín won't be happy about it. I expected Marc to come alive in the last laps but the medium rear never woke up (he had also some weird issue with rear tire smoke in the last corner).

Main takeaway is that Pecco is on fire and Martín's lead is eroding. Now we wait a month for the next race.

Everyone was on a soft rear tyre except Mav and I think the smoke is due to his ride height device touching the tyre when he lowers that for the straight

surendhar · Jun 2, 2024

Tibenano said:
I'm new here... But I'll throw my opinion in the bunch.

I think (that's a personal opinion, no links, no data in support) that one of the Key features that improved Gp24 performance over 23 lies in the last regulations, tire pressure limit in particular. Dall' Igna had more than a year to refine his Red machine so that tire heating and pressure rising wouldn't limit the Chase for the title.
Gp24 was Born to avoid that precise technical issue.
I think that today Bastianini vs Marquez Battle showed us that a Gp23 following a Gp24 has far less margin on tire management than the opposite, limiting the chances for Gp23 riders to fight back After being overtaken (like in previous MM vs Bagnaia duels).

That's a personal opinion, off course.

Welcome mate,
Well, Martin in his interview said that he was not able to overtake Pecco because of the front tyre pressure (so it seems that this is not resolved in GP24)....just saying

PRS717 · Jun 2, 2024

JPSLotus said:
Who cares if anyone can see his data? It doesn't mean anything if you can't replicate what he does, and it doesn't sound like anyone knows how to replicate how he rides.

Isn't that what Cal used to say about Marc? He could see his data and knew what Marc was doing, he (Cal) just couldn't do it on the track.

As said by several, the race was an exercise in waiting for something that never came. That said, just after I said to myself that I hoped Marc wouldn't get overly ambitious in attempting an overtake on Enea, he came from a good way back and executed a beauty of a pass. I thought for sure he was going to run wide but he did not. Enea paid him back and then pulled a beauty of his own on Martin though Martin seemed to leave the door open a bit.

Really didn't think the Moto2 race needed to be shortened but yea, Joe Fuqqin' Roberts! Hopper said pre-race he was feeling it and in the zone. Great ride by him.

Wildcat · Jun 2, 2024

It's pretty clear that the gap between the 24 to 23 is bigger than 23 to 22, Otherwise we would see more 23's fighting at the front as we did last year with the 22. Also clear is Marquez may have lost a bit of speed as he needs fastest bike to compete, something that old Marc would not have needed but he is still 1 of the best on old machinery and head and shoulders above all other 23 riders. It would be nice to see him, pecco and Martin Duke it out on same machinery but as a fan of pecco, I fear Marc would run away with the wc. Hard debating going on but minimal name calling...well done everyone

mylexicon · Jun 2, 2024

gui22a said:
So the GP24 is indeed a better material, but how much better? 0.5s? 0.4s? 0.3? no way. 0.2s? maybe on some sectors? 0.1s overrall? it might be. So where does the MM supposedly superior riding skills enter on this equation? Wasn't MM half a second faster than anyone else in the field? 0.4? 0.3? 0.2? I want you to point out to me how much of that gap is MM closing and how much is the GP24 opening.

You don’t really need to guess. You can compare Marc’s times on the GP23 to the best times from last year’s rounds. It’s not apples to apples, the tire pressure is lower this year and Marc is on the most developed GP23, but it will give you an idea.

ratdeal · Jun 2, 2024

Pretty sure the GP23 has minimal updates from Portimao 2023 trim, so is essentially the early, slowest spec?

Happy to be corrected on this.

dogfight · Jun 2, 2024

You always said that Gp24 is better, I said that from Montmelo is it better. So why I have to prove if both have the same idea?

I said before race 6 it is hard to say: it is an uncertainty, is there any burder to prove an uncertainty?

You said some area in GP24 is better, you need to prove them. 3 remaining things: aero, braking, and cornering. If you cannot, dont reply any more. This is the third /fourth post you replied but does not add any value.

MdubSTYLIE said:
How can you be so confident when you haven't provided any evidence?

Sennas_Caress · Jun 3, 2024

MotoGP in 2023 finished after 41min 16.863sec
MotoGP in 2024 finished after 40min 51.385sec

That is difference of 25,478 seconds and with 23 laps that means an average of 1.1 seconds faster per lap on average...

Wow!

What a weekend Pecco had. Worthy of a champion.

mtf20 · Jun 3, 2024

Sennas_Caress said:
MotoGP in 2023 finished after 41min 16.863sec
MotoGP in 2024 finished after 40min 51.385sec

That is difference of 25,478 seconds and with 23 laps that means an average of 1.1 seconds faster per lap on average...

I don't really like to compare race times because these could be misrepresented because of fights, multiples overtakes or race facts...
However, I don't really remember the 2023 race (to know if Pecco had fights for the P1) but he led all laps yesterday without get disturb.
I found that when he won in 2022, by the same way as yesterday, he did 41min18.923s (FQ20 was 0.635s behind lol). To me, it confirms a bit what I said before, GP23 wasn't way stronger than the GP22 but the difference between GP24 and previous ones is huge. Really hats off to Ducati engineers...

Sennas_Caress · Jun 3, 2024

I agree that only looking at the race winners time could be somewhat misleading, although is tell you something about the pace that the bikes can have on the tyres.

In 2023 you only had 15 competitive riders finishing the race, and the 15th position's race time (Augusto) was 26.5 seconds off Pecco
Yesterday, you had 20 competitive riders, with Rins finishing in 15th, 23,6 seconds off Pecco's time, and that was a faster race time than Pecco's win last season.

Luca Marini, on the Honda, was only seven seconds slower than Pecco last year. And Marini finished in 20th. With this race time, he would have finished 5th, last season.

It's borderline insane, just how much quicker everyone is.

michaelm · Jun 3, 2024

MdubSTYLIE said:
Marc on a 24 would be leading

I tend to agree, but Bagnaia can in no way be knocked in regard to this race, a faultless and imperious performance, and we will never know whether MM could have matched him had he been on this year’s bike.

I think they are sorting the GP24, Morbidelli was prominent as well as the podium guys, and the days of riders however talented being competitive on last year’s bike may be coming to a close. I also doubt a GP24 will cut it with a GP25 over a season next year either, so MM has possibly shot himself in the foot by telling Pramac to piss off.

michaelm · Jun 3, 2024

dogfight said:
You always said that Gp24 is better, I said that from Montmelo is it better. So why I have to prove if both have the same idea?

I said before race 6 it is hard to say: it is an uncertainty, is there any burder to prove an uncertainty?

You said some area in GP24 is better, you need to prove them. 3 remaining things: aero, braking, and cornering. If you cannot, dont reply any more. This is the third /fourth post you replied but does not add any value.

It is you who is positing that a newer bike designed by an engineering genius which has just filled the top 3 and 6th places in the recent race with one of the greatest riders of all time 4th on a 2023 bike and an acknowledged prodigy on a bike of different manufacture 5th is no better, I would say the burden of proof is on you. Why on earth would Gigi not improve on the 2023 bike when designing the 2024 bike ?. Do you really think the GP24 riders including Morbidelli are manfully struggling to overcome the deficiencies of the GP24 to defeat GP23 riders ?.

Of course Bagnaia could do no more than he did in the recent race and deserves every credit, but that is a separate issue. MM. made an extremely deliberate choice to ride a GP23 for Gresini this season, which is also his problem and nobody else’s.

michaelm · Jun 3, 2024

Double

MdubSTYLIE · Jun 3, 2024

dogfight said:
You always said that Gp24 is better, I said that from Montmelo is it better. So why I have to prove if both have the same idea?

I said before race 6 it is hard to say: it is an uncertainty, is there any burder to prove an uncertainty?

You said some area in GP24 is better, you need to prove them. 3 remaining things: aero, braking, and cornering. If you cannot, dont reply any more. This is the third /fourth post you replied but does not add any value.

That went over your head. Not surprised. You need to stop. I provided observations, quotes, statistics, and comparisons. While you have said nothing but, that doesn't count. Meanwhile your opinion is valid based on nothing. Zero incite. No points of view. Nothing. You are a joke and what you are doing is the epitome of trolling. The stupidest part is you don't even technically disagree with me you are just being daft. I simply pointed out that you made a statement based on nothing and are unwilling to provide any proof while asking me to provide a ....... encyclopedia of information and my first born child. I am going to provide you nothing more, which is the same amount of info you have contributed to the forum since joining.

PRS717 · Jun 3, 2024

mylexicon said:
It’s not apples to apples, the tire pressure is lower this year

Okay, I'm wearing my pointed dunce cap. I thought the reason for the new tire pressure rule was to ensure a higher minimum front tire pressure so the riders didn't run lower pressures. Why can't they run whatever pressure suits them?

PRS717 · Jun 3, 2024

Regarding the GP24 vs GP23, I think the most evident reason to believe the GP24 is improved is to listen to what the riders have said. Last year they were all saying the GP23 was not so good, particularly under heavy braking (if I recall correctly). Ducati sorted it out. This year they all seem to say the bike is better, though I believe there were some issues early on with chatter but overall, the consensus is the GP24 is better. Nobody here has ridden the bikes so the best we can go on is what people in the know are saying and they all say the GP24 is better. That's enough for me. I do hope the riders currently on the GP23 get the updates to make them more competitive. Side note, Digi has become a fixture in the top 10 going back to the end of last year. I'd say he is earning his keep.

Faz · Jun 3, 2024

Right i’m topped up now with how much better and where plus how the 24 Duc is to the 21’22 and 23. Put me down as a believer!

mylexicon · Jun 3, 2024

PRS717 said:
Okay, I'm wearing my pointed dunce cap. I thought the reason for the new tire pressure rule was to ensure a higher minimum front tire pressure so the riders didn't run lower pressures. Why can't they run whatever pressure suits them?

That's generally the purpose of the tire pressure regs, but just before the 2024 season began, Michelin lowered the minimum front pressure from 1.88bar to 1.8bar.

Michelin do not let teams run their preferred pressure because generally lower pressure yields better performance, but if you push it too far, the likelihood of tire failure increases. The incentive to push the limit is too high for the teams to self-regulate. Michelin set the min pressure at 1.88 bar for safety; however, during the 2023 season, they discovered that front tires were overheating, and it resulted in poor front tire performance. This is also unpredictable and unsafe.

Maybe 1.8 bar is the correct sweet spot. The riders are not complaining much about overheating, and so far (fingers crossed), no one has experienced a tire failure. Lower pressure should be helping the lap times a bit this season.

PRS717 · Jun 3, 2024

mylexicon said:
That's generally the purpose of the tire pressure regs, but just before the 2024 season began, Michelin lowered the minimum front pressure from 1.88bar to 1.8bar.

I did not know this and with the early penalties this year it seemed as if it was going to be a problem.

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2024 MotoGP Round 7: Gran Premio d'Italia Brembo - Mugello

warthog1

surendhar

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PRS717

Wildcat

mylexicon

ratdeal

dogfight

Sennas_Caress

mtf20

Sennas_Caress

michaelm

michaelm

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MdubSTYLIE

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Faz

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