MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

JPSLotus · Oct 25, 2015

moto vudu said:
How can we not bring Marc into this?? This is about Marc and Rossi! I don't see how you can say MM's reckless riding has no bearing on what happened... it had EVERYTHING to do with what happened. This incident didn't happen in a vacuum.

Vale is guilty for setting Marc up to decide if he wanted to make contact. Marc is guilty for actually making that contact.

No it's not about Marc at all.

This was about VR trying to create a scapegoat because he was feeling the pressure, and also believes it is his divine right to have riders part like the Red Sea did for Moses, when he needs to get by. Thursday was about him trying to play mind games as he did so many times in the past, only MM didn't react the way Sete or Max or others from the past did. He laughed. Which meant he didn't get baited into it as the others did so many times. I'd wager that VR was pissed that it didn't have the intended effect of drawing MM into some exchange where VR could try and make him look bad.

Yeah MM wants JL to win and then takes victory in a race that would have helped JL beat VR more easily. Oh yeah that makes oh so much sense. </sarcasm>

ReddiWhip · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz said:
I have never stated that MM is not the one that makes contact, what I have stated is I remain 100% uncertain that he is the one that initiates it by the entire action of the time.

Now I have also highlighted something and suggest that you check dictionary as to the meaning of the word FACT.

What you have posted is an opinion not fact.

I strongly doubt that MM was looking for contact purely because being on the outside he was 95% certain to lose the argument and whilst you are of course entitled to your OPINION ours differ.

Sorry by Race Direction determined differently ........ that is a FACT

With regards the 'alleged' kick, you will not find anywhere that I may have stated it was a kick as for mine it was action/reaction caused by the contact of the issue, much like at times we all think we feel a spider and literally go all Bruce Lee in reaction.

- What is this the twilight zone? Marquez runs into Rossi, which we're in agreement with... But that's Rossi's fault?

Correct, Race Direction determined differently, that is a Fact.

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Sure but VR has been doing .... like what he did today stretching back long before MM ever sat on a grid.

"It's racing Casey."

Never said that VR hasn't done his share of questionable deeds but will say now that the Willarott incident was far worse than that we saw yesterday

JPSLotus · Oct 25, 2015

yamaka46 said:
A rather different scenario - Schumacher's punting of Villeneuve meant he would have won the WC not Villeneuve, had all gone according to plan.

Murray Walker famously said something like "you've hit him with the wrong bit of your car, Michael". Villeneuve held the inside line and Scumacher deliberately turned in on him causing the crash. Even Ferrari International Assistance had to review the post race decision to do nothing due to the outrage, and eventually stripped Schumacher of hie points for the year. Also MS did have form, driving into Damon Hill to take the 1994 WC.

Not exactly the way the race played out this weekend, is it? Only one protagonist could win the WC - regardless of what your viewpoint was of the incident and the behaviours leading up to it, it was not deliberately causing an accident to try to win the WC by fair means or foul.

Well MM was considered an impediment for VR to win the world title, and VR did what he has done to those he considers to be impediments.

JPSLotus · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz said:
Never said that VR hasn't done his share of questionable deeds but will say now that the Willarott incident was far worse than that we saw yesterday

Yes was the Willarott incident bad? Absolutely.

But it also needs to be left out since this incident was caused by VR.

Had it been MM dishing it out, then it'd be worth discussing.

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

ReddiWhip said:
- What is this the twilight zone? Marquez runs into Rossi, which we're in agreement with... But that's Rossi's fault?

Correct, Race Direction determined differently, that is a Fact.

Reddi, as we said around 20 pages back ............. look at the video.

Rossi was found to have caused it by Race Direction and thus that is fact.

Opinions as to the culpability will differ from now for many years.

You will also see that I do not blame Rossi as such, certainly allude to it given the issue but will put it into every day terms.

You are driving a fully loaded semi trailer weighting 40 tonnes on a two lane single direction road. You are in the left lane with a line of cars in the right lane who are slowly overtaking you.

As you trundle along the car that is just clear of your bumper moves into your lane and slows suddenly to turn into the donut shop (bloody crispy creme). As a result you, in your truck simply cannot stop as you are somewhat committed so you collide with that car trying to turn left.

Under the law in many places you are at fault (legally), but what could you have done?

You had to objects moving at differing trajectory speeds that met up. Simple

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

JPSLotus said:
No it's not about Marc at all.

This was about VR trying to create a scapegoat because he was feeling the pressure, and also believes it is his divine right to have riders part like the Red Sea did for Moses, when he needs to get by. Thursday was about him trying to play mind games as he did so many times in the past, only MM didn't react the way Sete or Max or others from the past did. He laughed. Which meant he didn't get baited into it as the others did so many times. I'd wager that VR was pissed that it didn't have the intended effect of drawing MM into some exchange where VR could try and make him look bad.

Yeah MM wants JL to win and then takes victory in a race that would have helped JL beat VR more easily. Oh yeah that makes oh so much sense. </sarcasm>

Even if Rossi kept his mouth shut on Thursday, if MM was toying with Rossi at PI he likely had the same thing in mind for Sepang. Hey, the same way we disagree on what happened and what the penalties should have been... the other GP riders will have differing opinions as well. We'll see at Valencia exactly how hard it'll be for Rossi to make his way though the grid. This isn't over yet, we're likely in for one more plot twist.

ReddiWhip · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz, I wasn't saying that you said it was a kick. My mistake if i was implying that.

- I guess the disagreement between you and i lies in the statement where i feel that if Marquez didn't want contact, there wouldnt have been any.

Questions 2:

1.) Looking at the helicopter view, do you believe Marquez couldve stopped if he wanted? If yes or no, why?

2.) You don't think Marquez couldve tried to nudge him, but maybe it jsut didn't work out? I mean, he's kind of already done the same thing numerous times this season, and others.

** I just wanted to state I'm not fighting with you, just talking. Honestly. I know it's tough to determine ones demeanor through written text. **

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

ReddiWhip said:
Yeah, that's pretty dumb. I would say THOSE people are fan-boys, and not fans of the sport.

And it is those fanbois that generally fail to see that Rossi himself is not infallible as he does get emotional, he does make mistakes, but when it happens those self same fanbois are unwilling to accept that the messiah may at times be fallible.

Personally (and we going off topic a bit) I will not miss those fanbois when VR goes and while I doubt I will miss him either due to my rider preferences I do believe that he has opened a new viewer base for our sport as there are many people who started as fanbois but are now fans of the sport

ReddiWhip · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz said:
Reddi, as we said around 20 pages back ............. look at the video.

Rossi was found to have caused it by Race Direction and thus that is fact.

Opinions as to the culpability will differ from now for many years.

You will also see that I do not blame Rossi as such, certainly allude to it given the issue but will put it into every day terms.

You are driving a fully loaded semi trailer weighting 40 tonnes on a two lane single direction road. You are in the left lane with a line of cars in the right lane who are slowly overtaking you.

As you trundle along the car that is just clear of your bumper moves into your lane and slows suddenly to turn into the donut shop (bloody crispy creme). As a result you, in your truck simply cannot stop as you are somewhat committed so you collide with that car trying to turn left.

Under the law in many places you are at fault (legally), but what could you have done?

You had to objects moving at differing trajectory speeds that met up. Simple

I get the point you're making i just don't agree with the premise. In this case its two highly agile vehicles, both piloted by the best around, both moving at roughly the same speed.

If Marquez wanted to loft the front wheel and ram his tire into Rossi's head, he literally has the ability to do so.

And i've looked at the helicopter and other footage several times. Marquez was willing to make contact and did. If neither rider fell, this would be a non-issue right? Seriously i ask.

Frack · Oct 25, 2015

Hey guys. Just got back from a weekend in Orlando with my ordinary average kid who's the nicky hayden of nothing. We drove up in my ordinary average Japanese sedan. Would anyone like to see pictures of my garage. It pretty ordinary and average, just shovels and tools.
Anyways, I haven't watched the race or read the boards yet. Did I miss anything?

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

ReddiWhip said:
1.) Looking at the helicopter view, do you believe Marquez couldve stopped if he wanted? If yes or no, why?

Depends on which point of the chopper shot you refer but at the point where the impact and fall occurs - NO

I say that as he was accelerating thinking (I suspect) that VR would also have been accelerating to clear the corner and maintain the lead (afterall VR was no in a controlling position). To me, due to the lean angle he would have had to apply a significant amount of front brake and likely lost the front end.

ReddiWhip said:
2.) You don't think Marquez couldve tried to nudge him, but maybe it jsut didn't work out? I mean, he's kind of already done the same thing numerous times this season, and others.

Nope, not a nudge as we have seen at other times (a nudge to me meaning a
ok, enough now get on with it or as they say in car racing 'morse code, get out of my way') and to me that was a collision

Both have impacted the other at various times this season (and MM other riders), that is without question

To perhaps put it in perspective what I feel we saw was a two way intimidation that failed miserably because the two protagonists switched off their brains and let their emotions and egos rule their actions

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

ReddiWhip said:
I get the point you're making i just don't agree with the premise. In this case its two highly agile vehicles, both piloted by the best around, both moving at roughly the same speed.

.

It is Rossi who admits to coming to a near stop (refer earlier quote in this thread) ............ thus they were not at near the same speed to point of impact. Were they actually at the same speed at impact (within 1 or 2 kmh) the results would likely have been the same as the rider on the outside is always more vulnerable than the rider inside.

To put a perspective on it.

Last year Alex Marquez was inside, Jack Miller outside. They collided and Miller fell ............ the Marquez clan blamed Miller.

Yes you may see that as justifying that Rossi was innocent but to me all it shows is perspectives and opinions can be tainted depending on the side of the fence (or track)

JPSLotus · Oct 25, 2015

Biggest point I would like to make that people are ignoring.

Rossi made zero attempt to take that corner and take it on a line that would have had him clipping the apex.

He made no attempt to turn in before the contact.

Making contact was always his intention. Had he turned in, he would have made the corner and never made contact with MM.

ReddiWhip · Oct 25, 2015

Gaz said:
And it is those fanbois that generally fail to see that Rossi himself is not infallible as he does get emotional, he does make mistakes, but when it happens those self same fanbois are unwilling to accept that the messiah may at times be fallible.

Personally (and we going off topic a bit) I will not miss those fanbois when VR goes and while I doubt I will miss him either due to my rider preferences I do believe that he has opened a new viewer base for our sport as there are many people who started as fanbois but are now fans of the sport

I know what you're implying, and if you read my post near the beginning of this thread, i think you would see that i'm fairly well versed when it comes to motorcycle racing, and not just motogp. I'm 32, and my knowledge from 2000 and on shows i've been watching (and riding for that matter) the better part of my life. Come on, bro.

Not that i expect you to care what i say, but I've also stated I'm a fan of Yamaha and don't care who pilots it. Lorenzo wins, Yamaha wins, im happy. If Marquez signs with Yamaha i'll be very happy if he wins too. But that doesnt barr me from stating my view of the circumstances.

I'm saying they're both to blame for today. But only one of the parties was damaged. And my gripe is that this championship was not decided on the track by in large.

yamaka46 · Oct 25, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Well MM was considered an impediment for VR to win the world title, and VR did what he has done to those he considers to be impediments.

Really? You believe you can conflate those two approaches?

For MS, one incident won him a WC, the other could have. MM VR incident was not the same at all. VR could only lose by fighting with MM, a fact which MM quite clearly understood. VR taking MM down could not affect the WC in any way. Very different IMHO.

moto vudu · Oct 25, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Biggest point I would like to make that people are ignoring.

Rossi made zero attempt to take that corner and take it on a line that would have had him clipping the apex.

He made no attempt to turn in before the contact.

Making contact was always his intention. Had he turned in, he would have made the corner and never made contact with MM.

I agree with you up to the point that Rossi wasn't the one that actually made the contact. Rossi intentionally blocked Marc from turning in while looking back at Marc essentially daring him to do something. Marc had a choice to either continue to brake and slow down to the edge of the track with Rossi or turn into Rossi and take his chances with the contact. We know that Marc chose the latter. Neither rider is innocent and I believe that's why Race Direction chose not to Black flag Rossi, but to wait until after the race to talk with both riders.

JPSLotus · Oct 25, 2015

yamaka46 said:
Really? You believe you can conflate those two approaches?

For MS, one incident won him a WC, the other could have. MM VR incident was not the same at all. VR could only lose by fighting with MM, a fact which MM quite clearly understood. VR taking MM down could not affect the WC in any way. Very different IMHO.

Not true yama.

Taking MM down means he no longer has to fight just to keep third place..or possibly finish in 4th costing him more points that he needed in the fight against Lorenzo.

Once MM was out, who did VR battle for the remainder of the race?

No one. Easiest 3rd place ever.

Gaz · Oct 25, 2015

Just to keep this rolling to 100 pages - a 4 camera view

motogp - Jiffier gifs through HTML5 Video Conversion.

MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

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