MotoGP: 2015 Round 17 - Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

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JPSLogus, which of the incidents in Feros's post would you consider to meet this rule?

It's your judgement call:

Riders must ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to
other competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane.

MM made far more irresponsible and was riding dangerous more than VR, he posted several stills of the passes previous to MM ramming VR and going down.

So if VR should have been black flagged, now many laps before MM crashed into VR should he have been black flagged?

Nothing in his post qualifies.

Once VR decided to essentially "confront" MM going into that corner, that was no longer responsible riding. Riding close is part of racing. It's been that way for decades. Dozens of riders have done so without incident and without throwing temper tantrums.

VR did the same sort of thing he did in Assen, and what I personally believe to be true in Argentina; put himself in a spot as Ayrton Senna used to do, and leave it up to the other person as to whether or not they wanted to have an accident. That's not responsible riding or driving because you're basically trying to put all responsibility on the other person in a situation where it takes two to tango. VR had a responsibility to not do what he did. He could have kept going and just dealt with the entire situation much as he was loathe to do. Who knows, he might have beaten MM on merit rather than attempting assassination on the track.
 
Just wanted to follow up from earlier so no one misunderstands me since I did talk a little bit about MM and intentions.

Based purely on the rules, Rossi should have been black flagged within 2 laps of the incident for what happened.

In spite of what he believes or believed about MM the sporting regulations state the following in section 1.21 subsection 2:



Penalties as laid out by the disciplinary code...



When you consider the options from DQ down, Rossi got off lightly.

In theory he should have been penalized under withdrawal of championship points and exclusion from the championship. There is precedent as I mentioned many pages ago where Michael Schumacher was excluded from the 1997 FIA Formula 1 World Championship for his actions in the final race at Jerez. So it has been done in a top level series for causing a collision by intentionally positioning one's self so such conflict was inevitable. Rossi did it subtly with the actual hit, but the intent remains the same.

He should not be participating in Valencia, and Jorge Lorenzo should have been declared 2015 MotoGP World Champion as a result.

Whether MM did or did not conspire to ruin VR's race doesn't matter as there is nothing explicit in the rules pertaining to such things. In order to do something about it, there needs to be proof. There is no evidence to support such claims. This is indisputable. Burden of proof in a court of law is much higher than burden of proof across internet forums. At the end of the day, Race Direction's biggest mistake was not in assessing a larger penalty to Valentino Rossi.

your right, rossi should have been disqualified, only considering this one situation, leaving everything else aside...but thanks god they did´nt. because there are no written rules for the thing marquez did, there is no legal way to punish him to make him clear "hey, what you did was asolutely ........ and actually you should start from the back too for thinking it´s up to you to deiced who deserves to be champion. and this in a completely reckless way taking the risk of crahisng you and another driver out, although youself dont even fight for the title!"
 
Whether MM did or did not conspire to ruin VR's race doesn't matter as there is nothing explicit in the rules pertaining to such things. In order to do something about it, there needs to be proof. There is no evidence to support such claims. This is indisputable. Burden of proof in a court of law is much higher than burden of proof across internet forums. At the end of the day, Race Direction's biggest mistake was not in assessing a larger penalty to Valentino Rossi.

Not disagreeing with you but just analyzing that regardless of the extent of the punishment, it doesn't really matter. If it was a DQ, a 1 race ban, a death sentence, the net result will literally be exactly the same. Will it not?
 
your right, rossi should have been disqualified, only considering this one situation, leaving everything else aside...but thanks god they did´nt. because there are no written rules for the thing marquez did, there is no legal way to punish him to make him clear "hey, what you did was asolutely ........ and actually you should start from the back too for thinking it´s up to you to deiced who deserves to be champion. and this in a completely reckless way taking the risk of crahisng you and another driver out, although youself dont even fight for the title!"

Except the whole thing with MM is that suspecting him of trying to manipulate the outcome of the title battle isn't the same as having proof that he has in fact done so. If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt (text message, phone call, email, conversation, something) that MM's intents were that, he should be dealt with separately, but without it, it doesn't really much matter.

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

No one can prove anything about MM, and no one even knows anything for that matter in this particular instance.

If MM had caused VR to crash, you can be certain he would have been blackflagged and banned from Valencia for it.
 
Thank you for your concern. Being bored to death by ........ is just an expression. If it were a real thing, I'd have died from reading your nonsense a long time ago. You beating a dead horse and repeating the meme that endless pages consisting of torrents of childish insults being traded back and forth can be construed as evidence of how or why the forum is thriving won't be the death of anyone. You'd like to take credit for the fact that this thread is going on for as long as it is - but the longevity of the the thread has only to do with the nature of the controversy being discussed. You continue to make the mistake of valuing quantity over quality. So keep up the personal attacks, keep beating that dead horse (it's god for your post count too). It keeps alive your delusion that any of your lashing out at me has any relevance to anything besides your preoccupation with pursuing a narcissistic flame war that should have died long ago. Keep feeding the drama that only you (and of course your multiple screen characters) and your two enthralled groupies who live off the crumbs of your pettiness are paying attention to. It really doesn't concern me.

Paging Dr Stylie, the kancerous kancer is yawning again. Doc, give us the scoop, how serious is it?

Its the effect of the lobotomy. We were hopeful that this would cure his delusions but they still squirt through every now and then. The yawns are a good thing. What we don't want are things like the statement above. We would go in again but there really isn't much brain left.
 
In other news, a petition to restore the good name of Stalin, Hitler, Kim Dong iLL, Osama bin Lousy, Pol Pot, and other despot's reputation unjustly suffering defamation has been created.

Freedom Defamation Fighters, take up your arms.


(Hahaha, the world has gone mad).


On a serious note, only religious extremism can explain this petition. Scarry ..... And I mean that seriously.
I keep seeing references to this, but I'm currently VPNless and trapped behind the Great Firewall.
Could someone kindly summarise?
 
Gaz, it's not a line in the sand MM crossed, but he to will probably one day be riding for a championship, and if there is karma or a god, some rider who just doesn't want that prick to win will just hold him up and change the outcome of the series, making MM come in 2nd or worse.

Totally agree, he has set the tone for how he should be treated if.when a similar situation arises (assuming that by that time the rules have not been clarified or changed to stop the situation ...... and we know that rules get changed from time to time)



No offense, every competitor is signed on to the goal of winning and finishing as best they can, to say MM has no responsibility to compete for the win, is effectively endorsing the behavior of sandbagging a race to harass another rider. I am sure the organization you "administer" or "officiate" rewards participants for the goal of harassing other riders because said rider is no longer a viable overall winner. If you as an official and do endorse that, you should not be in the racing game. You just rely on those participants to "do the right thing" is that it? you officiate chess matches, checkers? wtf?

Now show me where I say he has no obligation to try for the best result possible ............... you can't because I don't

The point you may be overlooking is that the same rules should apply at round 1, as apply at the last round. Now, if we agree on that then the years where Rossi hung back and played with opponents could have caused issues that led to that second rider losing championship points that would have been critical at years end, ergo the actions of VR could have impacted the championship

I do like your approach, assumption included with attempted denigration and just to continue for your benefit I may indeed officiate at Checkers but last I looked they didn't have motors, two wheels and nor were they capable of speeds nearing 300kmh






You can think i'm a VR46 bleed yellow guy all you want, but MotoGP missed the mark here, every rider on that grid is wasting there time if the press princess MM can just ride roughshot over anyone he chooses because this classless overrated ...... doesn't like who's winning.

The situation now is little different to that of years past with another media darling who was alleged and perhaps treated as bigger than the sport, just that todays alleged darling is a different person who seems to have ruffled many a feather



You don't seem to have any response to MM's laptimes, you know the fast ones in qualifying and the first few of the race? then he suddenly sees his board and suddenly the honda can't run a full lap without rubbing blue paint on it.

I have plenty of responses.

One being that qualifying is not racing and as such qualifying laps are relatively meaningless in the big scheme o racing as during QP you are generally not fighting for position on a racetrack as the slow riders make room and so on.

Have said for years and will say again - practice is practice only as when the flag drops the bullsh*t stops.

If we were to look at pure practice times and determine where riders would finish thence VR would not have been near the podium in PI but we know that his race craft will compensate for others being faster at times

MM is generally quick from the get go in practice whilst VR is known to start slower and then improve his laptimes as he gets the bike to both his and the tracks liking so let us look at FP1/FP2 in that sense.

Which leaves the remain FP and WUP sessions where MM was faster.

Of course, none of this matters come race day as that is a different day, time of day meaning track conditions and hell, it could well rain could it not.


IMHO, no action after MM's CHOICE of going after VR, were anyone's fault but MM's. VR is the points leader after 17 races, MM is pointless in this series for the overall win. All Season he says he's just going to go for the race wins, and his laptimes show it, contantly getting better and/or staying consistent at the front. Provided he didn't crash.
This one race he hammers out some fast laps and then starts going backwards, shockingly ending up in an altercation he created himself. No offense, he tipped into VR, VR was in front, it's MM's responsibility to get around VR not VR's responsibility to let MM get around him. That turn, had NO shortage of run off, Marquez wanted to play the victim here, and you soft brained losers bit on it hook like and sinker.

See, Rossi himself stated that he slowed to a 'near stop' (refer earlier post from one of the Rossi fans) and as such he contributed to the issue that occurred. It was this together with his ADMISSION (yes, Rossi admitted) that he was trying to force MM wide that meant that RD penalised him and only him (as quite simply once again in crayon - MM did not break any written rules of the sport)

If you re-read my posts going back some way you will see the way I see the incident and one of which is I have no issue with VR riding MM wide (go on, use that search function). My issue was and remains with the undue slowing of the bike (Rossi admits to coming to a near stop ..... that is not me making that up but he said it as quoted elsewhere) on what had become by Rossis actions (again, nothing wrong with them) MM's line. MM accelerated because he was trying to drive through the turn just as one would have expected a racer to do but instead he collided with a SLOW Yamaha that was placed there by Rossi who quite frankly and paraphrasing his own comment was having a dummy spit ('I wanted to let him know WTF')

Now personally, I would rather be soft brained than that so focused on my god that I cannot see that he may have participated in and/or contributed to the issue.


Show me in the rules were your not allowed to look at another rider? Forward or back, I don't see it. It does have some info in there about hitting another rider, even if your in a block pass situation. Several of which nearly cause VR to crash earlier in the race. Riders look at the bike they are putting a block pass on all the time. Tell me how many positions on the starting grid Crutchlow lost for taking out Dovi? Because we are following the letter of the rule book right?

There was contact between MM and VR, and as it turns out you can hear and see on the telemetry that MM caused it. Yet your defending MM who drove into VR from behind.

Likewise you show me the rule that says that a rider is not allowed to slow and speed up at their will and/or compete with any other rider they see fit.

Of course there is no rule regarding head positioning or looking at riders, but I ask this (and expects some insulting smart arse reply) but show me any other footage of VR or other riders looking to the left 3 times in 2 seconds whilst going through a right hand corner.


So you have access to the telemetry I take it - you must of you can see and hear it (Telemetry does not have audio btw)

And no, I am not defending MM. Again, please show me where I say he is blameless.

I do enjoy being called blinded by a person who seems to be more one sided that I
 
Now as for riders playing dirty tactics, first it was Pedro in Aragon, stealing points from Rossi when he is not a title contender. March Pedro to the gallows.

Next came Iannone, having the gall to pass Rossi at PI on the last lap no less, earning the wrath of Italy. March him to the gallows.

I don't think that even the most hard-core Rossi fan said either of those two races were dirty on the parts of Pedro or Iannone.

What myself and others said is that it came at a bad time for those two to come out of coma and win hard fought battles against Rossi. But they were perfectly fine in doing so. 100 % fine.

And now Pedrosa in particular is looking great, so, good on him.
 
I have them on right now.



Relax and take notes, while I take tokes of the marijuana smoke!


giphy.gif
 
Gaz, I'll give you an apology for the name calling. Your right I didn't go back to read or research your old posts. I read a few ridiculous statements about dirty moves not being nice, but not dirty either. Sorry man, sincerely, for the name calling, but your splitting hairs on semantics when it's obvious to everyone else this could have all been avoided, had MM just rode for the race 1st or 2nd where is qualifying pace and first few laps put him.

Sincerely, sorry.


No problems, accepted

And please show me where I disagree with the basic premise that IF MM had ridden a race at a faster pace (I am assuming he was capable ...... looks like it) then the incident would not have occurred but that also does not make it MM's fault in part or entirety as two riders were involved and not a single rider.

The issue you and many others have is with the rule book in that it does not allow for punishment for riders who are alleged (and we have to say alleged as without admission, the rest is supposition) to be riding at a slower pace so as to impede the forward progress of a second rider.

As I have said elsewhere, it has happened in the past and will likely continue to occur with the national or team approaches and whilst it may seem obvious to some it is an extremely hard thing to prove from a judicial viewpoint.

Like it or not, that is the way it is and the way the sport is adjudged against a set of hard and fast written rules.
 
than they should, actually, add a rule that an obviously slower rider, struggling to keep in front of a possible champion, with no chance at all to win the championship, has to be called back with a blue flag, if his own misslead ego stands in the way of good sportmanship and rational thinking, as boring as this might be. sorry, but to say marquez did nothing wrong by the way he behaved...if they really need rules to make him clear that it is not his decision who deserves to win, it will soon be boring as formula 1.

again, he did nothing wrong going strictly by the rules, but it´s also not up to him to take influence in a fight that is not his fight. and once more again:

gentlemens agreement (im 100% sure this also exists in motogp). if you have no chance to win the title, than at one point you have to get the .... out off the way of the ones who do, or at least be an obstacle for both...

Serious question.

If they were to implement such a rule at what round does it become effective?

I ask as a rider could lose 5 points in round 1 but then finish 3rd by 3 points at seasons end, or miss the title by 3.

The danger to such a rule is and will be when should it be implemented as you may well impact the 'racing' as such far earlier in the year than would be 'required'
 
Nothing in his post qualifies.

Once VR decided to essentially "confront" MM going into that corner, that was no longer responsible riding. Riding close is part of racing. It's been that way for decades. Dozens of riders have done so without incident and without throwing temper tantrums.

VR did the same sort of thing he did in Assen, and what I personally believe to be true in Argentina; put himself in a spot as Ayrton Senna used to do, and leave it up to the other person as to whether or not they wanted to have an accident. That's not responsible riding or driving because you're basically trying to put all responsibility on the other person in a situation where it takes two to tango. VR had a responsibility to not do what he did. He could have kept going and just dealt with the entire situation much as he was loathe to do. Who knows, he might have beaten MM on merit rather than attempting assassination on the track.

buddy, i cant care less about who wins the championship or what the rules,tire,engineering,..etc.(cuz tbh this really isnt my field)

but what interest me is intelligence.

what baffles me is that these ppl get paid from 10m to 30m a year, how could they act in such a way: rossi's pr, lorenzo post match pr, the way MM rode, the way rossi reacted,... why!!!

and when you say nothing in my post qualifies, hard racing and fair racing is what this games all about,but that was not hard racing, the way he rode just kida justified(ugh,dont really wanna say that) what rossi was saying in his pr.and i have to give this quote again
"Consequences dictate our course of action ..."
 
I don't think that even the most hard-core Rossi fan said either of those two races were dirty on the parts of Pedro or Iannone.

Ianonne they did.

Rossi had to basically tell a lot of his fans to effectively 'pull their heads in' given the level of abuse on social media platforms that had been directed at Ianonne.

In that act, Rossi shows leadership and was deserving of immense respect.
 
I wanted to expound upon something Arrab said much, much earlier regarding precedent set by what happened today, and how that impacts the future of motor racing.

Formula 1 saw a huge uptick in dangerous driving maneuvers and all sorts of dangerous defensive maneuvers such as chop blocking, squeezing drivers, and etc. in the 1980s. Part of it was due to Ayrton Senna, the man in my avatar. So no one mistakes me, while I love Senna, I have never been at peace with how he drove at times as he engaged in the sort of .... that actually VR doesn't even have the balls to do. Estoril, 1988, over a perceived slight of being passed (sound familiar?) he attempted to run Alain Prost into the pit wall at Estoril at 190MPH. Nothing was done in terms of penalties. He had run-ins with every top driver during that era. However the only one who fought back was Nigel Mansell, and he never backed down to Senna going as far to brake check him in the rain causing a big accident as payback for all of the things Senna had done to him over the years.

The problem arose in the wake of the incidents with Alain Prost at Suzuka in 1989, and then 1990, the FIA stood silent. Unfortunately this was a catastrophic mistake on their part because it sent a message to the younger generations that racing as a contact sport was perfectly acceptable. Michael Schumacher built upon what Senna did, and did even far worse, and ironically Senna was Michael's idol. See, this is learned behavior. When you see your idols getting away with it and winning as a result without punishment, it sends a message to everyone that it will be condoned. What ultimately happened is that in the wake of Senna's death in 1994, the situation got progressively worse as the decade went on. How there were no deaths as a result of the uptick in dangerous driving by many drivers is still a mystery to me. Some may remember Robert Kubica's horrific crash at Montreal 2007 where his entire car just disintegrated and he walked away unscathed. Do you know what precipitated the crash though? Jarno Trulli squeezed him onto the grass on the run down to the hairpin. There was no penalty given out for it. F1 has a huge problem with dangerous driving because much like in MotoGP race control chose to do nothing.

What happened today, to tie it back to Arrab's comments, sent a message to the kids who worship Valentino, that if you're frustrated on the circuit, punting your opponent is perfectly acceptable. This is why the penalty was chickenshit because this was the perfect time to send a huge message to not only Valentino, but everyone watching grand prix motorcycle racing that behavior like this will not be tolerated period. This was important to do as Valentino chose to do it at the site of Marco Simoncelli's death, which was just bad.

Instead, he gets to ride at Valencia. Yes he starts from the back of the grid, but if he manages to somehow win the world championship, the message it has now sent to all riders is that behaving like this might get you in trouble, but it still worked out for Valentino. He won his 8th premier class title in spite of it, so who really gives as ....?

Dangerous precedent.
 
A couple of weird or interesting points out of this weekend.

First we have Lorenzo who to many who have been somewhat questioning of him in years past, is now receiving a lot of support from people 'hoping' that he wins the championship

The we have MurderMarc as he was once known garnering sympathy from those who so christened him MurderMarc because of the actions of Rossi

I know we have a full moon near my place but is it world wide such seems to be the winds of change this weekend
 

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