MotoGP: 2015 Round 16 - Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2015

yzthumpa said:
Apparently it was good enough to keep him around for 4 years...[emoji14]

He didn't have Carmelo Clause to bail him out.

J4rn0 · Oct 20, 2015

Jumkie said:
Ah yes, an objective take, do yourself a favor, read Randy Mamola's report on the subject. The fact Michelin had a tier system should give you pause. Your argument is, yeah they treated some with preferential treatment, but they had enough integrity to give the good stuff out equally while they ...... over the other guys. Haha got it.

Dont kid around.....

The tier system was discriminating between factory teams and lesser teams, -- LCR just to mention one probably did not receive the same material as the big teams -- but they could never discriminate between Honda and Yamaha factory teams.

Another limitation o the so caled SNS is that o course they were possibe only in the Euroean rounds. They could never be shipped from France to Australia, Japan or Malesia, or whatever other continent. According to your theory, Rossi could never have won consistently outside Europe right? No SNS there.. But he did.

You'll have to find something else Jum, -- knowing you, chances are you will! :giggle:

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Dont kid around.....
The tier system was discriminating between factory teams and lesser teams, -- LCR just to mention one probably did not receive the same material as the big teams -- but they could never discriminate between Honda and Yamaha factory teams.

Another limitation o the so caled SNS is that o course they were possibe only in the Euroean rounds. They could never be shipped from France to Australia, Japan or Malesia, or whatever other continent. According to your theory, Rossi could never have won consistently outside Europe right? No SNS there.. But he did.

You'll have to find something else Jum, -- knowing you, chances are you will! :giggle:

Wait, so you admit Michelin engaged in discrimination, but then somehow you've rationalized this wasn't extended to fly aways? Michelin were smart enough to produce tires overnight (no less) for European rounds but weren't smart enough to supply tires with favorable general characteristics for Rossi on fly away round? That's awesome logic.

J4rn0 · Oct 20, 2015

Jumkie said:
Wait, so you admit Michelin engaged in discrimination, but then somehow you've rationalized this wasn't extended to fly aways? Michelin were smart enough to produce tires overnight (no less) for European rounds but weren't smart enough to supply tires with favorable general characteristics for Rossi on fly away round? That's awesome logic.

You apparently never had to understand logistics did you?
Time, vector, distance...

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2015

J4rn0 said:
You apparently never had to understand logistics did you?
Time, vector, distance...

Well homie, that's funny u say this, I was actually an integral part of massive logistical operations back in the day. Too much to explain, but in regards to Michelin, as do Bridgestone (a far east company) now, they seem to handle developing and shipping specifically tailored tires with parameters to fly away circuits regularly. Not sure why you think this is such a smoking gun to disprove what you already admitted was tire discrimination by Michelin.

JPSLotus · Oct 20, 2015

Michelin has facilities around the planet.

Were their SNS tires only produced in Europe?

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Michelin has facilities around the planet.

Were their SNS tires only produced in Europe?

According to what I've read on the subject, yes.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2015

yzthumpa said:
Uhhhhh….I'm a grower, not a shower.

FYI - he really wants to know.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2015

BarryMachine said:
Well I've just arrived here in PI .

Traffic was pretty bad.

Hope I haven't missed the race!!!

Barry - stick around; you're much missed and much needed.

JPSLotus · Oct 20, 2015

Jumkie said:
According to what I've read on the subject, yes.

Okay...I guess even in spite of that, I'm not understanding why it would be outrageous for Michelin to be able to produce and fly SNS tires to locations outside of Europe. This isn't traditional commuter airline travel where the schedules have little flexibility.

The Michelin engineers at the track would know at the moment Q was done, what needed to be changed. Even in 2006, that was a quick email with all of the data to the production facility, which in turn would have had everything ready to go the moment they received the tire data. They clearly had a quick curing process, so figure by early evening the tires are on their way to the plane which already has clearance to take off. From there, even a 12-15 hour flight would see the tires showing up sometime race day morning, late morning.

Edit: Yeah there is the obvious time zone issue. But massive companies like Michelin could easily do it. A mom and pop operation? Obviously not.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2015

BarryMachine said:
How did you know I was at yo ma's!! ??

You'll be pleased with me I have taken up mtbs.

Just popped in to check out PI ........ same ole same ole I see .......
Just more talk about mensastruation

Kind of ironic how many here can do it - but can't spell it.

yzthumpa · Oct 20, 2015

Keshav said:
FYI - he really wants to know.

It's a lot closer to Vale's number of titles than it is to Stoner's, thank God.

And that's in inches, not centimeters, for you peeps across the pond.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2015

JPSLotus said:
What I have always found interesting about Rossi's career is how his success was dependent also on the quality of competition. He sort of lucked out coming into MotoGP when the series was in a transition from the Doohan era to the new competitive era. It took about 10 years from Doohan's retirement for MotoGP to get a crop of riders that were were similar in some regards to the Doohan, Schwantz, Rainey, etc. period.

Rossi did not get pushed in any real sense till Stoner showed up. Even then, we still had to get Pedrosa up to spec, and the arrival of Jorge Lorenzo to really see what Rossi was made of. I would argue that if Marco Simoncelli doesn't get killed in 2011, that would have added another high level talent to the mix, and then the arrival of MM in 2013, would have added even further competition.

Just for the sake of discussion, Stoner retires in 2012.

But right now Rossi would have to be competing against: Lorenzo, Marquez, Pedrosa, Simoncelli, and throw in Maniac Joe here and there. Of course that assumes that Rossi would still have been at Yamaha. For all we know, perhaps Yamaha decides that Simoncelli would have been worth taking for 2013?

Point is, a large part of Rossi's success was dependent on not having true next level talent on the other factory bikes. It is what it is, and he took advantage of it as he should have. Would you really consider Sete or Biaggi as being on the same level as Lorenzo or MM?

In what sport is this not true???

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Okay...I guess even in spite of that, I'm not understanding why it would be outrageous for Michelin to be able to produce and fly SNS tires to locations outside of Europe. This isn't traditional commuter airline travel where the schedules have little flexibility.

The Michelin engineers at the track would know at the moment Q was done, what needed to be changed. Even in 2006, that was a quick email with all of the data to the production facility, which in turn would have had everything ready to go the moment they received the tire data. They clearly had a quick curing process, so figure by early evening the tires are on their way to the plane which already has clearance to take off. From there, even a 12-15 hour flight would see the tires showing up sometime race day morning, late morning.

Edit: Yeah there is the obvious time zone issue. But massive companies like Michelin could easily do it. A mom and pop operation? Obviously not.

JP, have u ever watched Trailer Park Boys?

"It's not rocket appliance."

JPSLotus · Oct 20, 2015

Jumkie said:
JP, have u ever watched Trailer Park Boys?

"It's not rocket appliance."

Nah never did get around to it lol.

JPSLotus · Oct 20, 2015

Keshav said:
In what sport is this not true???

Point I was making is that how Rossi was seen by most at the end of the 2005 season was that he was seen as the second coming of Agostini in spite of questionable competition.

It's the same question that's now starting to be asked about Tiger Woods. Was his success up till Thanksgiving 2009 a product of inferior competition? Talented as he was, he played against many players who were touted as "the next best thing" only for it to completely collapse. Christ, in the Summer of 1999, Sergio Garcia was being positioned as the guy who would be the Arnold Palmer to Woods' Nicklaus. The light burned at the 1999 PGA Championship, and seemed poised to give us that great battle...but it never amounted to a tin ..... Woods played against a number of players who were mentally weak really...sort of like Biaggi and Sete.

yzthumpa · Oct 20, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Point I was making is that how Rossi was seen by most at the end of the 2005 season was that he was seen as the second coming of Agostini in spite of questionable competition.

It's the same question that's now starting to be asked about Tiger Woods. Was his success up till Thanksgiving 2009 a product of inferior competition? Talented as he was, he played against many players who were touted as "the next best thing" only for it to completely collapse. Christ, in the Summer of 1999, Sergio Garcia was being positioned as the guy who would be the Arnold Palmer to Woods' Nicklaus. The light burned at the 1999 PGA Championship, and seemed poised to give us that great battle...but it never amounted to a tin ..... Woods played against a number of players who were mentally weak really...sort of like Biaggi and Sete.

Woods was on another level and it didn't matter who his competition was (much like Rossi

) - the only thing that could beat Woods was Woods…and his wife with a golf club.

MdubSTYLIE · Oct 20, 2015

Keshav said:
Kind of ironic how many here can do it - but can't spell it.

Are you talking to me non directly again? Someone please tell him its my preferred way to talk to him.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2015

yzthumpa said:
You can only beat the guys they throw in the ring with you. Larry Holmes syndrome.

Sorting through some member's posts to weed out the false equivalences is like pulling teeth. You seem eminently qualified.

yzthumpa · Oct 20, 2015

I find it funny that people want to try to build up Stoner so much when he's even a notch below Lorenzo and a couple notches below Marquez. Give him credit - he did have Pedrosa covered though. Hell, he didn't even get the ride on the Duc on my wall of fame…

MotoGP: 2015 Round 16 - Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

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