Indianapolis GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

Faster1 · Aug 18, 2013

mylexicon

3585251376869969

Until proven otherwise, it is the bike. When Stoner won, people said it was the bike. Turns out, Stoner could ride something no one else could ride. When Lorenzo won, people said it was due to Rossi's injury. Bridgestone said that Lorenzo actually had the ability to ride ideal lap times over race distance.

In this era of electronic integration and ubiquitous, democratized rider training schools, what is Marquez story? I see none emerging. Lots of people can ride a Honda, and I doubt he is more machine-like than Lorenzo. The narrative ATM is that HRC look invcible and his competitors are retired or stuck on slightly-slow Yamahas.

10-15 years ago we could have ruled out the bike, since the "best bike" moniker was really just shorthand expression for the best integration of man and machine. Today, best bike literally means the manufacturer burns through 8-digit-sums each season to exploit small advantages in fuel consumption components, engine reliability, fuel-mapping strategies, and fuel-adaptive electronics. Previously, these systems meant nothing. The manufacturer only needed to achieve engine life of 100k, fuel consumption of 26L-24L/100km, and reasonably smooth power delivery to keep the tires in fair condition.

MotoGP has a serious credibility problem. Marquez' rookie-season is not helping matters.

+1 It’s always been the case in gp,, just never so

prevalent. And I really thought (hoped) that Rossi'a adventure on team red

would make more people see the light,, i.e.,, bad bikes beat great talent.

MM might be the real deal,, the second coming etc.. but Ionone isnt slow either

and he'll probably disappear into obscurity because of "the

bike". That’s what really sucks about motogp these last few years.

Did anyone recall recently when Laverty joined Gavin and Mr. Plunge in the booth a few races

back? He was asked (prodded) if he had any dreams of being in motogp, and in

his most polite way i'll translate "fook no! if you don't have a

factory Honda or Yami, you’re an ..... to ride in gp, unless you are just in

it for the babes and have no desire whatsoever of winning". It kind of

took the two motogp mouthpieces by surprise,, as I laughed my ... off.

GP is a 5 bike race (the 5th one is Bradle’s disguised factory Honda)

everyone else is a grid filler. .. ,hope you're right Krop and the Honda empire

loses monopoly control of the series.

mylexicon · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin

3585341376874244

.... me, Lex, I thought you were smart. You don't appear to be actually watching, when the evidence is right in front of your eyes. Try watching some footage. That isn't just the bike, that's reflexes, throttle control, braking ability, courage, vision, racecraft, the ability to process information, and a whole shitload of other stuff.

Or maybe it's all just Asimo WWE. The counterpoint to that argument being that both flat track and speedway are a bajillion times more exciting than MotoGP, yet they have far fewer followers.

I didn't say MM is not incredibly talented, but honestly, I don't see much difference between MM and other multiple champs like Lorenzo and Stoner. Both were spectacularly fast out of the box, and both had immense bike control.

So I watch MM win races by 3-5 seconds in his rookie season and everyone says that MM is the new motorcycle-messiah. I can't help but ask myself, if GP had a tire war, would this kid stand a chance against someone with Rossi's race craft? Certainly not in his rookie season. If MotoGP had no fuel limitation, would MM be able to hold his own against Stoner's raw speed? Close, but not yet, maybe not ever. If MotoGP had better fuel consumption parity, would MM be able to ride like a human metronome like Lorenzo? Probably not at this stage in his career.

I'm watching MotoGP Idol, a reality TV show where the HRC and Repsol judges decide who is worthy of winning the next WC. As I've opined previously, this kind of debased entertainment was basically impossible in previous eras. Back then, everyone had too much power, too much fuel, disintegrating tires, and primitive electronics or no electronics. The winner was the team that made everything work together with the rider, but factory supercomputer programmers were not a pre-requisite to winning races or titles.

Sloth_27 · Aug 18, 2013

mylexicon

3585501376883580

I'm watching MotoGP Idol, a reality TV show <u>where the HRC and Repsol judges decide who is worthy of winning the next WC</u>. As I've opined previously, this kind of debased entertainment was basically impossible in previous eras. Back then, everyone had too much power, too much fuel, disintegrating tires, and primitive electronics or no electronics. The winner was the team that made everything work together with the rider, and factory supercomputer programmers were not a pre-requisite to winning races or titles.

So you don't think Lorenzo will be able to win the title? Right...

I still think Satellite bikes are capable of winning races. They gave Cal the updated fuel tank this weekend. It made .... all difference. Because it was never the fuel tank that was slowing Cal down, he just assumed it was because his starts are always ...... and slow. Cal finished in about the same place as Rossi (despite being on a so called inferior bike). Perhaps he is that much better than Rossi at the moment.

There is definitely a difference between the Factory bikes and the Satellite bikes, but you can't really blame hardware for the 20 second gap between first factory and first satellite bike.

clarkjw · Aug 18, 2013

Pol espargaro sux. He won't challenge Marx at all next year. He was on the best chassis in 2012 and didn't do ..... Also did jack .... this race. Mark my words

mylexicon · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin

3585441376877717

I think fans (in which group I include riders and journalists) are schizophrenic about what they want from MotoGP. If you have ultimate technical freedom, then the factory with the deepest pockets wins. If you have spec everything, then you lose the technical appeal of the sport. Fans want to see the best riders on the best bikes, but at any given time, there are only two or three riders who are truly the best riders, and four or five bikes which are the best bikes.Yes, I do. I think he could win races on the Ducati, if he could take Stoner's old crew to Ducati with him. No way would he be leading the championship though. Modern MotoGP is about getting the most out of the front Bridgestone, and Marquez' aggressive riding style does exactly that.

The manufacturers have been taking more and more control of the sport from the riders. It started out innocuously by stealing control of wheelspin or wheelie attitude, but these systems became more sophisticated and their intrusion became more severe. As we all know, the problem became acute when the manufacturers limited the fuel tanks, which allowed them to program wins by adjsting turn-by-turn fuel consumption. The racing line also became quite one-dimensional, and the tire war was eventually lost as the tire manufacturers focused on corner entry performance, rather than corner exit, which had been neutered by the MSMA.

When you're stuck with healthy wheatgrass gruel, it's easy to imagine a score of indulgent meals you'd rather consume. That's not a sign of schizophrenia or fickle diet. Furthermore, if the GPC decided to serve prime rib with fresh vegetables, the fanbase would probably not complain bitterly about the lack of double-chocolate rum cake with cocaine icing.

It is possible for GP to balance technology and the skill of riding, as evidenced by the past. When customers are satisfied with the product, they are much less likely to complain about all of the things they are not getting.

Jumkie · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin said:
I think he could win races on the Ducati, if he could take Stoner's old crew to Ducati with him. No way would he be leading the championship though. Modern MotoGP is about getting the most out of the front Bridgestone, and Marquez' aggressive riding style does exactly that.

Krops, my respected but lost ur mind 2% of the time friend; u do urself no favors saying something so over the top. As much as im opinionated, even I hold back when discussing my man crush.

Burgess was supposed to be the undisputed legendary genius and Rossi the Greatest of All Time (undebated and undisputed by 99.99% of all expert to casual fan opinion...well except by me), a tandem, coupled with the unbridled supe- motivation of an Italian National Effort (something like the Moon Shot) with the resources to match; and how many wins in a two year off-season testing cycle and two-season racing calendar did this match made in motorsport Heaven produce?!

ZEE-.......-0

Dude, the kid is good. As good as Stoner? Perhaps, I wont argue it. But now even U know whats wrong with Ducati too? So..whats holding back the Ducati program is nobody can exploit the front tire like Stoner did? Lets conveniently shelve the fact Stoner had issues exploiting the front tire even on the best developed motorcycle on Earth going into 2012, which produced chatter and needed countess renovations to the chassis plus a $2 dollar part which was a mystery for the better part of a year until the title was a matter of continued consistency in points management for the Yamaha. Oh and...the front tire is several cycles past the one Stoner used when he was actually winning with Ducati! Dont forget, he said THIS tire is ....! But lets also for a moment pause to consider the lessons of the past AND employ our analytical faculties a bit here. As I said above, Marc is beating the vets who are competing on his level of kit, 1 guy and two M1s that are slighly inferior. Kudos. However, Is it not in the realm of possibility that those other three are not as good as we think? ...., if a rookie is beating them, right? I mean if Cal can beat and keep up with VR, and during the season so to with the likes of Pedro, and even Marc, yeah Cal, a man who wasnt "produced" by this supposed far superior 'Spanish system' of constructing the "best riders in the world" and only had two superbike wins to his name...then, can we question the "alien" status of these 4? Look Krops, would u have said last year Cal would be nearly and quite literally 'among' the 4 established "aliens"? .... no, right? But in ur estimation Marc would take the Duc that Dovi rode to a 10th today, and win with it. Uhm...actually, its entirely possible. But for .... sake, its also entirely possible Cal will win races on the Duc next year too. Kinda makes ur prediction as substantive as a fart in the wind. I say this with all dew respect...of course.

Dr No · Aug 18, 2013

mylexicon

3585531376886490

The fans are not schizo. The manufacturers have been taking more and more control of the sport from the manufacturers. It started out innocuously by stealing control of wheelspin or wheelie attitude, but these systems became more sophisticated and their intrusion became more severe. As we all know, the problem became acute when the manufacturers limited the fuel tanks, which allowed them to program wins by adjsting turn-by-turn fuel consumption. The racing line also became quite one-dimensional, and the tire war was eventually lost as the tire manufacturers focused on corner entry performance, rather than corner exit, which had been neutered by the MSMA.

When you're stuck with healthy wheatgrass gruel, it's easy to imagine a score of indulgent meals you'd rather consume. That's not a sign of schizophrenia or fickle diet. Furthermore, if the GPC decided to serve prime rib with fresh vegetables, the fanbase will probably not complain bitterly about the lack of double-chocolate rum cake with cocaine icing.

It is possible for GP to balance technology and the skill of riding, as evidenced by the past. When customers are satisfied with the product, they are much less likely to complain about all of the things they are not getting.

Good post, Lex.

hawkdriver · Aug 18, 2013

The factory teams always end up getting caught with their pants down after they acquire the fastest riders and win a couple of championships. Development slows down and the race teams have to do more with less. It's a constant cycle and we've all heard Rossi, Stoner, Jlo, and Pedro asking for more and doing non stop testing when they're down. It's only a matter of time until the M1 gets upgrades

evo9 · Aug 18, 2013

clarkjw

3585521376885438

Pol espargaro sux. He won't challenge Marx at all next year. He was on the best chassis in 2012 and didn't do ..... Also did jack .... this race. Mark my words

Agree, that kid is mentally weak! I lost respect for him this year when he accuse Tito of not being a team player. This because Tito crossed the line a head of him a few times this season. Marc's gonna ..... slap him in motogp in the next coming years.

AnnoyingTwit · Aug 19, 2013

We're seeing history. When was the last time a rookie took the championship. It's looking more and more that Marquez has this. He's got a good lead, and he's more than a match for any other rider/bike combination out there.

MigsAngel · Aug 19, 2013

[]MM - Awesome
[]Pedrosa - Never gonna win the Top title
[]JLo - Maybe its time to let Rossi take development lead of the M1
[]Rossi - If you could only Qualify better under this new system
[]Cal - Nicely done.....being nice don't win titles
[]Bautista - well done for not taking anyone out...
[]Bradl - Step up or step out
[]Bradders - LOL excellent job at the start and at the end....
[]Hodor - Dangerous pass that gained nothing, .....!
[]Dovi - Riding for the money now?

Spies, perhaps it is time to Retire from GPs and go back to WSBK or AMA....

cliche guevara · Aug 19, 2013

MigsAngel

3585641376900047

Maybe its time to let Rossi take development lead of the M1

:lol:

Kropotkin · Aug 19, 2013

Jumkie

3585541376888112

Krops, my respected but lost ur mind 2% of the time friend; u do urself no favors saying something so over the top. As much as im opinionated, even I hold back when discussing my man crush. Burgess was supposed to be the undisputed legendary genius and Rossi the Greatest of All Time (undebated and undisputed by 99.99% of all expert to casual fan opinion...well except by me),

Something I also publicly drew into question several times on the website. Whether Burgess is as good as his reputation. He helped Gardner, Doohan and Rossi to world championships. Or did Gardner, Doohan and Rossi help him to world championships?

Kropotkin · Aug 19, 2013

mylexicon

3585501376883580

I didn't say MM is not incredibly talented, but honestly, I don't see much difference between MM and other multiple champs like Lorenzo and Stoner. Both were spectacularly fast out of the box, and both had immense bike control.

So I watch MM win races by 3-5 seconds in his rookie season and everyone says that MM is the new motorcycle-messiah. I can't help but ask myself, if GP had a tire war, would this kid stand a chance against someone with Rossi's race craft? Certainly not in his rookie season. If MotoGP had no fuel limitation, would MM be able to hold his own against Stoner's raw speed? Close, but not yet, maybe not ever. If MotoGP had better fuel consumption parity, would MM be able to ride like a human metronome like Lorenzo? Probably not at this stage in his career.

1. If MotoGP had a tire war, both Rossi and Marquez would be on the same tires. Result would be the same. And by the way, if you watch the Moto2 races, you will know that Moto2 is all about tire conservation. Marquez did that best, and blew them away. Right now, Redding is doing it slightly better than Espargaro, forced on him by his greater weight.

2. Casey Stoner is retired, and subsequently irrelevant to this conversation. Would Marquez be able to hold out against Jarno Saarinen's sublime bike control? Who the .... knows, Saarinen is dead, and even if he wasn't he'd be 67.

3. If MotoGP had better fuel consumption parity, Marquez would be crushing Lorenzo. Lorenzo's style works so well because it conserves everything, fuel, tires, bike, everything but Lorenzo (it's actually exhausting to ride that smoothly, ironically). Give Lorenzo more fuel and he won't go any faster. Give Marquez less fuel and he won't go any slower. The Hondas are already finishing with fuel in the tank.

whammy · Aug 19, 2013

Kropotkin

3585831376911226

Something I also publicly drew into question several times on the website. Whether Burgess is as good as his reputation. He helped Gardner, Doohan and Rossi to world championships. Or did Gardner, Doohan and Rossi help him to world championships?

He did not do too good at setting up the Ducati for Rossi. That speaks volumes about JB and his talents.

cliche guevara · Aug 19, 2013

Kropotkin

3585841376911644

1. If MotoGP had a tire war, both Rossi and Marquez would be on the same tires. Result would be the same. And by the way, if you watch the Moto2 races, you will know that Moto2 is all about tire conservation. Marquez did that best, and blew them away. Right now, Redding is doing it slightly better than Espargaro, forced on him by his greater weight.

2. Casey Stoner is retired, and subsequently irrelevant to this conversation. Would Marquez be able to hold out against Jarno Saarinen's sublime bike control? Who the .... knows, Saarinen is dead, and even if he wasn't he'd be 67.

3. If MotoGP had better fuel consumption parity, Marquez would be crushing Lorenzo. Lorenzo's style works so well because it conserves everything, fuel, tires, bike, everything but Lorenzo (it's actually exhausting to ride that smoothly, ironically). Give Lorenzo more fuel and he won't go any faster. Give Marquez less fuel and he won't go any slower. The Hondas are already finishing with fuel in the tank.

i thought it would make more sense that a guy that doesn't use a lot of fuel would be less affected by having to make due with less fuel.

marquez only beats lorenzo because honda is better at running lean

thanks for throwing me that bone

Kropotkin · Aug 19, 2013

I do not believe I have come across a group of people more determined to not enjoy a sport.

Dr No · Aug 19, 2013

whammy

3585851376912210

He did not do too good at setting up the Ducati for Rossi. That speaks volumes about JB and his talents.

Must be why he's paid so little and went proddy racing instead of working a factory Yamaha....

Yeah, he lost lustre with Ducati, but while you and others may have lost interest in his abilities, Vale didn't.

Hmmmm, at 1/4 throttle, with a 36 tooth rear, a swingarm pivot set to -2mm and a lean of 42deg, the bike is coming around a bit....what do you start with, whammy? Bit less low comp on the front or bit less rebound on the rear?

whammy? ??

Dr No · Aug 19, 2013

Kropotkin

3585881376913089

I do not believe I have come across a group of people more determined to not enjoy a sport.

Froze my arse off watching a MRRDA round on the weekend. Helped some young guys out. Ate vile hamburger to stop stomach eating itself. Resolved to drag my RS125 out to ride against kids almost a 1/3rd my age. Helped load stranger's bike and gear. Drove home. Had some beer and talked racing .... about with my mates for hours.

This sport sucks arse.

cliche guevara · Aug 19, 2013

Kropotkin

3585881376913089

I do not believe I have come across a group of people more determined to not enjoy a sport.

seriously krop , maybe (/probably) i'm stupid but i don't comprehend your argument.

if "gas guzzling" marquez had less fuel he'd do even better than jorge because less fuel favors the smoother riders? wtf?

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Indianapolis GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

Faster1

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Dr No

hawkdriver

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AnnoyingTwit

MigsAngel

cliche guevara

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