Indianapolis GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

Jumkie · Aug 18, 2013

thedeal

3585121376861467

You could look at it this way Jum, they all went to Austin , the kid is on the best bike (that he has zero experience of) compared to the rest. he is on the best tyres (that he has zero experience of) he is on the best brakes (that he has zero experience of) and he still beat the .... out of them, if you honestly think there is anyone who could do what he has done this year i'd like to see it, lets be honest, last year he was a cheat, but Bradl is nowhere in comparison and Pol will be about the same as Stefan even on a full factory bike, face facts MM is a new level.

First of all, he had experience. There is this little thing called off season testing. Its not a race, but come on, its not like he went in with one arm tied behind his back. In fact he had tested at Austin (hes also won the last two times at Indy prior to today). Laguna I was really impress, but come on, a 3rd would have been a likely finish if his only two rivals would have been healthy, maybe 4th if they had an actual good racer on that second M1, haha. (I know, how could I say such bad things, right?) He had plenty of experience on the equipment, and track knowledge. Second, the jump to the bigger class is not what it used to be me thinks. A few good things have conspired on top of the fact he is super talent, his rivals hurt, the absence of any real parity beyond the guys that got hurt. You guys make it sound like we are witnessing an alien landing. Hes good, but dont go all Kropo on me and forget all the surrounding particulars dude.

(All kropo read from the above post is: Marc is an ......., slow, and should be hated.)

Keshav · Aug 18, 2013

Jumkie

3585111376861156

I'm gonna have to disagree with you man. I don't think these guys are ........, except for a small minority. The guys who stand out as ....... I could name you almost by name to a man (of those's I met and some from reputation): Maladin to top the list. From the current GP grid: Nicky, Dovi, Bradl, Aoyama, Lorenzo, Bautista, Smith, Iannone, Edwards, AEspargaro, Petrucci, Hernandez. All these were very nice to me, and all I've ever read about them were good things about their personality.

Rossi, Marc & Pedrosa, were all nice to me when I met them too (though VR did hobble away and paid me no mind when I asked for an autograph, but I could actually understand). The ....... part for me comes from disregard to fellow competitors. Marc, as nice and go lucky as he seems, had simply put lots of careers and himself in questionable danger (though after he almost took out Pedro and Jlo, that talk somebody surely had with him has made him much more prudent, ie today's passes). Same goes with VR. Pedrosa, he is a special case for me. I really think he was an "......." as a man, though I will admit, I think most came from his manager and mentor. I bet he would be nicer if his coach wasn't telling him that getting ahead also included trying to .... over others with less clout, that meant Nicky. He couldn't with Stoner because the man was simply 2x as good, and Marc is 2x as good with the clout and full backing of the series. But just look at the times his character has been tested. Nicky days, Bridgestone debacle, chatter issues, all the times he has used his clout to whine and eventually get his way.

Btw, all those things you said, I don't see why that would make ........ or ignorants per se. Boning umbrella girls, how does that make anyone dumb. It would make me feel like a genius and a million bucks. President of Haiti is Bob Marley, right?

Being nice to the fans is part of the job description. Lots of actors, musicians, basketball and baseball players are nice to the fans - but are total ignorant shitheads in their private lives, having no idea what is going on in the world around them. There will always be exceptions.

Kropotkin · Aug 18, 2013

Jumkie

3585081376859612

...with all 'do' respect.

With all "due" respect. FFS.

thedeal · Aug 18, 2013

Jumkie

3585131376862124

First of all, he had experience. There is this little thing called off season testing. Its not a race, but come on, its not like he went in with one arm tied behind his back. In fact he had tested at Austin (hes also won the last two times at Indy prior to today). He had plenty of experience on the equipment, and track knowledge. Second, the jump to the bigger class is not what it used to be me thinks. A few good things have conspired on top of the fact he is super talent, his rivals hurt, the absence of any real parity beyond the guys that got hurt. You guys make it sound like we are witnessing an alien landing. Hes good, but dont go all Kropo on me and forget all the surrounding particulars dude.

(All kropo read from the above post is: Marc is an ......., slow, and should be hated.)

In comparison to the others he had no experience of his kit, Danny 6 years. Jorge 4 years, if you are going to say he gained as much in pre season testing as they have you are having a laugh, they were not injured at Austin, the jump is not as big I agree, but no one has or will do the same, parity is you say Rossi had a leg up, well even with that leg up and the best kit and 9 WC MM still makes him look slow, parity is Jorge has two WC on the best bike and MM makes him look slow, parity is Danny has many wins and MM makes him look slow, I don't think ET has landed but MM is a whole new deal, we are only half a season in and he is flying.

J4rn0 · Aug 18, 2013

Marc Marquez is so good he's embarassing the competition, that's the plain truth. JLo and Pedro got injured trying to keep his pace...

The way he can control the bike at the limit is scary and wonderful, something no other rider can replicate at the moment.

thedeal · Aug 18, 2013

J4rn0

3585171376863724

Marc Marquez is so good he's embarassing the competition, that's the plain truth. JLo and Pedro got injured trying to keep his pace...

The way he can control the bike at the limit is scary and wonderful, something no other rider can replicate at the moment.

Very well said

Jumkie · Aug 18, 2013

Disclaimer: Look away Stiefel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26dEdP7zcsA

stnd · Aug 18, 2013

The battles made this race. As a rossi fan seeing him pull 5 tenths per lap to catch up on Bradl Bautista and Cal was great.

Hope Hayden gets ona Honda next year. So curious how he would compare to Bradl and Bautista.

whammy · Aug 18, 2013

Jumkie

3585191376864696

Disclaimer: Look away Stiefel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26dEdP7zcsA

DORNA called me a horny old bass turd and would not let me watch

mylexicon · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin

3585031376857614

But as I have tried to drill into your tiny brains for the past two years, it ain't the bike. He destroyed his teammate and the reigning world champ.

Until proven otherwise, it is the bike. When Stoner won, people said it was the bike. Turns out, Stoner could ride something no one else could ride. When Lorenzo won, people said it was due to Rossi's injury. Bridgestone said that Lorenzo actually had the ability to ride ideal lap times over race distance.

In this era of electronic integration and ubiquitous, democratized rider training schools, what is Marquez story? I see none emerging. Lots of people can ride a Honda, and I doubt he is more machine-like than Lorenzo. The narrative ATM is that HRC look invcible and his competitors are retired or stuck on slightly-slow Yamahas.

10-15 years ago we could have ruled out the bike, since the "best bike" moniker was really just shorthand expression for the best integration of man and machine. Today, best bike literally means the manufacturer burns through 8-digit-sums each season to exploit small advantages in fuel consumption components, engine reliability, fuel-mapping strategies, and fuel-adaptive electronics. Previously, these systems meant nothing. The manufacturer only needed to achieve engine life of 100k, fuel consumption of 26L-24L/100km, and reasonably smooth power delivery to keep the tires in fair condition.

MotoGP has a serious credibility problem. Marquez' rookie-season is not helping matters.

whammy · Aug 18, 2013

From the start at Indy MM let his rivals take the lead knowing full well he could get past once his fuel level dropped. He was probably watching to see how much they were using their rear tire (139.6) to judge when he should make his passes. Once past he upped his speed (139.2) to try and pull a gap. JL and DP stayed with him until their tires started to go off. Then he was able to pull the gap that he felt comfortable with of 1.5 which he managed to increase because everyone but MM and Rossi had used up their rubber in the first 20 laps. All he had to do was maintain a comfortable pace till the end of the race. The boy is thinking way beyond his age and more like a seasoned veteran. He is toying with the field and at the present time they have no response.

When a rookie can think and do these things in a race his competition will come from younger riders and not from the current grid.

Kropotkin · Aug 18, 2013

mylexicon

3585251376869969

Until proven otherwise, it is the bike. When Stoner won, people said it was the bike. Turns out, Stoner could ride something no one else could ride. When Lorenzo won, people said it was due to Rossi's injury. Bridgestone said that Lorenzo actually had the ability to ride ideal lap times over race distance.

In this era of electronic integration and ubiquitous, democratized rider training schools, what is Marquez story? I see none emerging. Lots of people can ride a Honda, and I doubt he is more machine-like than Lorenzo. The narrative ATM is that HRC look invcible and his competitors are retired or stuck on slightly-slow Yamahas.

10-15 years ago we could have ruled out the bike, since the "best bike" moniker was really just shorthand expression for the best integration of man and machine. Today, best bike literally means the manufacturer burns through 8-digit-sums each season to exploit small advantages in fuel consumption components, engine reliability, fuel-mapping strategies, and fuel-adaptive electronics. Previously, these systems meant nothing. The manufacturer only needed to achieve engine life of 100k, fuel consumption of 26L-24L/100km, and reasonably smooth power delivery to keep the tires in fair condition.

MotoGP has a serious credibility problem. Marquez' rookie-season is not helping matters.

.... me, Lex, I thought you were smart. You don't appear to be actually watching, when the evidence is right in front of your eyes. Try watching some footage. That isn't just the bike, that's reflexes, throttle control, braking ability, courage, vision, racecraft, the ability to process information, and a whole shitload of other stuff.

Or maybe it's all just Asimo WWE. The counterpoint to that argument being that both flat track and speedway are a bajillion times more exciting than MotoGP, yet they have far fewer followers.

birdman · Aug 18, 2013

mylexicon

3585251376869969

Until proven otherwise, it is the bike. When Stoner won, people said it was the bike. Turns out, Stoner could ride something no one else could ride. When Lorenzo won, people said it was due to Rossi's injury. Bridgestone said that Lorenzo actually had the ability to ride ideal lap times over race distance.

In this era of electronic integration and ubiquitous, democratized rider training schools, what is Marquez story? I see none emerging. Lots of people can ride a Honda, and I doubt he is more machine-like than Lorenzo. The narrative ATM is that HRC look invcible and his competitors are retired or stuck on slightly-slow Yamahas.

10-15 years ago we could have ruled out the bike, since the "best bike" moniker was really just shorthand expression for the best integration of man and machine. Today, best bike literally means the manufacturer burns through 8-digit-sums each season to exploit small advantages in fuel consumption components, engine reliability, fuel-mapping strategies, and fuel-adaptive electronics. Previously, these systems meant nothing. The manufacturer only needed to achieve engine life of 100k, fuel consumption of 26L-24L/100km, and reasonably smooth power delivery to keep the tires in fair condition.

MotoGP has a serious credibility problem. Marquez' rookie-season is not helping matters.

Correct. Krop once even rite a thre part series on how to save motogp. He also rote a warning about how there was to much electronics ruining the sport. But alas that was before he fell in madly in love, now all is forgoten and forgiven.

Still, we saw Rea on the Honda and it wasnt an instant podium. So the rider is still more important than the bike, as proven over many years by Pedrosa, who try as they might Honda simply could not pruchase a championship for, no matter how many manipulations they tried. So yes, Marquez is much better.

I hope Marquez quickly gets bored with winning easy on the Honda and takes on a real challenge, to bring something back from the dead. Cmon MM, sign up for Suzuki. That will surely save motogp eh Krop?

birdman · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin

3585341376874244

.... me, Lex, I thought you were smart. You don't appear to be actually watching, when the evidence is right in front of your eyes. Try watching some footage. That isn't just the bike, that's reflexes, throttle control, braking ability, courage, vision, racecraft, the ability to process information, and a whole shitload of other stuff.

Or maybe it's all just Asimo WWE. The counterpoint to that argument being that both flat track and speedway are a bajillion times more exciting than MotoGP, yet they have far fewer followers.

In a lot of ways you are correct, there is only one other rider I can think of that could save a bike or slide the way Marquez does. But then again, electronics are just another tool, no different really than having a better gearbox, enabling the rider to gain that slight advantage. And when they move to 20L 5 engines, then who knows what else (15L 4 engines?), we might eventually get to the stage Asimo is actually more important than the jockey they strap on for ballast.

Kropotkin · Aug 18, 2013

birdman

3585371376875476

In a lot of ways you are correct, there is only one other rider I can think of that could save a bike or slide the way Marquez does. But then again, electronics are just another tool, no different really than having a better gearbox, enabling the rider to gain that slight advantage. And when they move to 20L 5 engines, then who knows what else (15L 4 engines?), we might eventually get to the stage Asimo is actually more important than the jockey they strap on for ballast.

If Dorna have the balls to wrest control of the rules from Honda, then we might get a better series. My spy in the GPC tells me that's the plan for 2017. Spec electronics for all, and a reasonable amount of fuel (22 liters or thereabouts).

Jumkie · Aug 18, 2013

What im most impressed with is that despite MM being on the undeniably absolute best everything, he's still beating the other 3 vets on undeniably absolute and near absolute best everything. Krops, are we cool?

birdman · Aug 18, 2013

Kropotkin

3585381376875762

If Dorna have the balls to wrest control of the rules from Honda, then we might get a better series. My spy in the GPC tells me that's the plan for 2017. Spec electronics for all, and a reasonable amount of fuel (22 liters or thereabouts).

The problem I have with the sport att is it is so static. No development at all. No new tires or engines etc etc. So if like at present we have a situation where the Factory Honda is just slightly better than the Factory Yamaha, And slightly better than Bradl's almost factory satelight Honda, then in the mind of Marquez he knows all he really needs to worry about is beating Pedrosa. A two horse race. More worrying is that the likes of Bradl know given equal talent they will always be a smidgen slower than the full factory, even if its 0.001s per lap, the package of Bradl simply must be inferior in some way to Marquez simply by the $$$$. So in Bradl's mind, perhaps he is already defeated, which I would say is a big problem for the sport. We need the likes of the Bradl's and Crutchlows, who admittedly on all the evidence are not quite as talented as Marquez, to be given encouragement, not handicapped.

You say the best 4 riders on the best four bikes. Effectively what motogp is a horse race with handicaps applied in reverse, the less priveldged you are, the higher the weight penalty. How many people would bother going to the races if they started to apply higher handicaps to the slower horses? I know know, its always been that way. But to my mind in the past there were much more variables, options and strategies.

Spec electronics and more fuel might be the solution.

I hope Marquez thinks he is so good that at some point he will want to prove it outright, ala Rossi 04. But with the way things are its doubtful that is still possible. Do you think Marquez could win on a Suzuki?

Kropotkin · Aug 18, 2013

Jumkie

3585401376876988

What im most impressed with is that despite MM being on the undeniably absolute best everything, he's still beating the other 3 vets on undeniably absolute and near absolute best everything. Krops, are we cool?

My point exactly.

Kropotkin · Aug 18, 2013

birdman

3585421376877109

You say the best 4 riders on the best four bikes. Effectively what motogp is a horse race with handicaps applied in reverse, the less priveldged you are, the higher the weight penalty. How many people would bother going to the races if they started to apply higher handicaps to the slower horses? I know know, its always been that way. But to my mind in the past there were much more variables, options and strategies.

'T was ever thus. Of recent champions, I'd say that Stoner (2007), Rossi (2004 only, but even that's debatable), Kenny Roberts (2000), Kevin Schwantz (1993), and maybe Lawson were on inferior machinery. The rest were on the best bike on the grid, though the advantage was often very small, and the level of competition differed from year to year.

I think fans (in which group I include riders and journalists) are schizophrenic about what they want from MotoGP. If you have ultimate technical freedom, then the factory with the deepest pockets wins. If you have spec everything, then you lose the technical appeal of the sport. Fans want to see the best riders on the best bikes, but at any given time, there are only two or three riders who are truly the best riders, and four or five bikes which are the best bikes.birdman

3585421376877109

I hope Marquez thinks he is so good that at some point he will want to prove it outright, ala Rossi 04. But with the way things are its doubtful that is still possible. Do you think Marquez could win on a Suzuki?

Yes, I do. I think he could win races on the Ducati, if he could take Stoner's old crew to Ducati with him. No way would he be leading the championship though. Modern MotoGP is about getting the most out of the front Bridgestone, and Marquez' aggressive riding style does exactly that.

whammy · Aug 18, 2013

No one has an answer for MM at this time. None of the riders.

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Indianapolis GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

Jumkie

Keshav

Kropotkin

thedeal

J4rn0

thedeal

Jumkie

stnd

whammy

mylexicon

whammy

Kropotkin

birdman

birdman

Kropotkin

Jumkie

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