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Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

michaelm said:
As always, I was happy for Rossi or anyone else to have "their" tyre, it was the Honda/Stoner tyre being removed with which I had/have a gripe, particularly since their objections to the new tyre were entirely correct.

To engage in an actual conspiracy theory, I always thought hindering Stoner/Honda was more their object than helping Rossi with either the weight change or the tyre changes, it was pretty obvious by then there was no short term solution which would make the Ducati competitive for anyone. Removing the tinfoil hat, I don't doubt there were genuine cold tyre performance concerns for some riders with the old tyre.
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The quote I always remember, Rossi 2012: 'I had nothing to loose'. Until 2013. ....... more irony.

I'll debate you on this issue though Mike. The 2011 Bridgestone was the one with all the problems. Too hard too many cold tire crashes caught out by colder than expected conditions. I think it was Germany where even the softest tire option they had was still too hard for one particular practice session which saw a number of riders crash at the very dangerous waterfall high speed section. The 2012 tire was specifically made softer to address this very issue. It apparently did so successfully, they were all happy, they all went off to develop their machines around it.

Ominously one machine was not developing according to plan. I specifically remember Capirossi went on a crusade of sorts, drafted in non other than Carlos Checa to test the Bridgestones on a Ducati SBK of all things to prove to the world it was the tires fault Rossi couldn't perform. And Checa made it clear the softer Pirrellis were better. With this sudden bad press the pressure immediately went on to Bridgestone to do something about it. A softer construction was the result.

Put Pirrelli (Itallian) tires on the original but quirky Ducati (Italian) bike and it's amazing how the ugly duckling can turn into a beautiful swan. Btw the frameless Ducati SBK appears to handle without any of the flaws of the MotoGP machine. Even Melandri can ride it. Maybe Prezi wasn't so bad after all.

Looking back over the years at every critical moment it's always the same gorilla which just happens to be at the epicentre. Ok in isolation it can be just coincidence. Like JKant we can just ignore the bigger picture and debate the minor details. Each coin toss in isolation can appear random and unrelated to anything. The big picture indicates the coin has tossed heads 9 times in a row, all we need now is the magical 10th. It's not coincidence.
 
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Jumkie said:
Nice find.

As MichaelM said, I had originally viewed the control tire a good thing for the sport, given that Michelin had a tier system which overwhelmingly favored Rossi. On its face, I thought everyone having the 'same' tire would eliminate the tier system (which it did) and tire manipulation (more on this later) stacked in favor of Valentino, a system so blatantly unfair that replacing it was to me a favorable proposal. I underestimated the manipulative capacity of Donra. It turns out, in hindsight that the control tire ended up being one of a number of rules changes that suppressed Ducati's progress, including engine limits, fuel limits, etc. Specifically in regards to tires, it seems that everyone did get the 'same' tire, but as we are learning from this weekend's smoke filled incidents, the development of tires is not entirely a purely democratic or evenly weighted process--by design! The context of this quote and exchange with Mike was in reference to the Silverstone GP, which if you've ever attended can range from antarctic to rain forest conditions within an hour, in typical fashion, it did present conditions that were tricky; the question being, was the challenge of performance more a tire or rider issue (obviously both, but my point was to say it had more to do with rider's ability to navigate such difficult conditions). My initial reaction to Pedrosa's complaint, as you can see from my post, is the basis of my response, not chalking it up to tires but rather the track conditions and his own performance. You could say my opinion was a reaction to Pedrosa, putting his performance in question not the tires, despite the fact Dani has evolved from being a dipshit to now mildly a garden nome, my take on Stoner was in some respects, part of my analysis. As far as series manipulation goes, I do believe that the general arch of stacking the deck (and manipulating the series for effect, afterall this was the CRT era FFS) is in effect every year (some more than others). Notable since Rossi's return to Yamaha (thanks to Carmelo's short stint as a sport's agent) the manipulation is back on hyperdrive since the 2nd Coming of Michelin--the previous architects of the SNS and tire tier system; as for the case of this specific GP for which you provided my quote, I thought the conditions on the track were the culprit. I will add, that in regards to Stoner's assessment of the Bridgestone front carcass that Mike referenced, ultimately Casey was proven correct and is generally accepted amongst all camps.
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I should add Jumkie that we were probably both right in this particular instance from our particular perspectives, but you more so in regard to that individual race week-end, where I am sure you were correct in what you said regarding the weather and track conditions being what were most influential.

I on the other hand was focused, and perhaps in retrospect it could even be said preoccupied, with this being the first race for which the hard carcass Bridgestone was unavailable. I was obviously correct in believing what Casey Stoner and Honda had said about the deficiencies of the new tyre, and not necessarily incorrect in my belief that ulterior motives were involved in the discarding of the old tyre.
 
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The coin tossed heads 9 times in a row?
Mysteriously the years 1998, 2000, 2006, 2007, and 2010 thru 2016 have all been withdrawn from service.
I am now 10 years younger, thanks Birdman;)
 
Daniboy said:
The coin tossed heads 9 times in a row?
Mysteriously the years 1998, 2000, 2006, 2007, and 2010 thru 2016 have all been withdrawn from service.
I am now 10 years younger, thanks Birdman;)
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As I recall 2006 was both a fluke and related to superior equipment, 2007 down to a vastly superior bike which rode itself, 2010 to Rossi suffering a leg fracture, 2011 and 2012 due to Rossi being on uncompetitive equipment (very true btw imo that he had no chance on the Ducati in those years and nor would have anyone else) and 2015 was down to a villainous plot by one Marc Marquez, which included him feloniously winning the PI 2015 race, and Vudu informs us that Marquez isn't really any good as a rider anyway in regard to the other non-Rossi titles on your list.

The problem with your line of argument is that we all know where all this started, and it certainly wasn't with discrediting of Valentino Rossi.

I personally consider all his championships to be well deserved, even the 2002 one which was a consequence of him having earned the very much premier seat in motogp that year, riding the first iteration of the Honda 990.

My own opinion which I am not suggesting is in response to any contention of yours is he doesn't "deserve" a 10th title for past deeds however great, and being remarkably good in his late 30s doesn't mean he should win a title just because he is closer to doing so than should really be possible.
 
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2006 was particularly impressive seeing as Hayden managed to win the title while testing parts for Honda during races. Must be the first champion who never had the backing of his team.
 
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michaelm said:
As I recall 2006 was both a fluke and related to superior equipment, 2007 down to a vastly superior bike which rode itself, 2010 to Rossi suffering a leg fracture, 2011 and 2012 due to Rossi being on uncompetitive equipment (very true btw imo that he had no chance on the Ducati in those years and nor would have anyone else) and 2015 was down to a villainous plot by one Marc Marquez, which included him feloniously winning the PI 2015 race, and Vudu informs us that Marquez isn't really any good as a rider anyway in regard to the other non-Rossi titles on your list.

The problem with your line of argument is that we all know where all this started, and it certainly wasn't with discrediting of Valentino Rossi.

I personally consider all his championships to be well deserved, even the 2003 one which was a consequence of him having earned the very much premier seat in motogp that year, riding the first iteration of the Honda 990.

My own opinion which I am not suggesting is in response to any contention of yours is he doesn't "deserve" a 10th title for past deeds however great, and being remarkably good in his late 30s doesn't mean he should win a title just because he is closer to doing so than should really be possible.
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Stop press... I wasn't arguing, just pointing out that 9 times in a row was not right.
 
Daniboy said:
The coin tossed heads 9 times in a row?
Mysteriously the years 1998, 2000, 2006, 2007, and 2010 thru 2016 have all been withdrawn from service.
I am now 10 years younger, thanks Birdman;)
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Ask vudu to post the definition of metaphor with some kiddy pics.

(Hint the coin doesn't represent championships.)
 
Paddy and Mick go to London to donate to the sperm bank.


It was a disaster!

Paddy missed the tube and Mick came on the bus.
 
NOTuOOw.png


Daniboy: Hello. My name's Daniboy.

He opens a box of pictures and holds it out for the nurse.

Daniboy: You want a picture of Valentino Rossi?

The nurse shakes her head, a bit apprehensive about this strange man next to her.

Daniboy: I could look at about a million and a half of these. My Moto Vudu always said, "MotoGP is filled with Valentino haters, and we have to do everything we can to stop it. You never know where the haters are going to come from.

Daniboy strokes the picture of Valentino winning the 2002 world title as he looks at the nurse's shoes.

Daniboy: Those must be comfortable shoes. I'll bet you could walk around Tavullia all day in shoes like that and not feel a thing. I wish I had shoes like that.

Woman: My feet hurt.

Daniboy: Motovudu always says there's an awful lot you can tell about a person who doesn't like Valentino Rossi. What their biases are. Where they might go when they don't have him left to hate anymore.

The woman stares at Daniboy as he looks down at his box of pictures.

Daniboy: I've seen a lot of Valentino Rossi races. I bet if I think about it real hard I could remember his first race.

Daniboy closes his eyes tightly.

Daniboy: Moto Vudu said Dorna would do anything to keep him competitive.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Which is incorrect.

How has this been substantiated? Again, it has since been established that Marc was referring to a harder compound. Actually this should read "hypothetically, some riders from four of the six manufactures could have wanted the new tyre"

"Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa, Iannone and Crutchlow all want it back" - do we have this at source? Since this is purely 'evaluative' surely it would be more accurate to say that of these, some, "would be interested in exploring the possibility of having it back".

These are coinciding press reports ostensibly based upon the same sources from last weekend.

Indeed - which is how I suspect the other riders view the situation - possibly even Valentino. As opposed to "wanting the old tyre back".
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Can't really say for sure. They haven't named their sources. Could be someone from Michelin, could be other people (acc. to Emmett the 'Rossi & Marquez camps were pushing hard for it'). I'll try to post on Motomatters and see if we can get a clarification.

On the 'evaluative' bit, I agree. And yeah, it probably applies to Rossi as well; he suffered chatter on that tyre in early testing at Jerez, I doubt he'd want to commit to it.

I dunno. Perhaps a lack of transparency? A wish to genuinely evaluate differing products for R&D purposes and to gather feedback across the paddock as opposed to an initial request from one rider and subsequently a small number of others?

My point is that Michelin could have handled this affair better in respect of riders, press, stakeholders and the public and for some reason, Nicholas Goubert was not entirely consistent/cogent in his explanations.
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Bit of both, I think - mismanagement & bad luck. To start with the tyre should not have been late; they screwed up by dispatching it separately. Michelin ought to have stressed the fact that they were bringing only the soft, to gather data, a tyre that could not be raced at Rio Hondo and that several factory riders had expressed interest in testing.

And they should have made that clear to the press on Thursday, no later.

Still it was exacerbated by some dreadful luck - the tyres getting stuck in customs coincided with a seemingly listless Rossi finishing out the top 15 in both FP1 & FP2; and his 'woe-is-me' statements after got a lot of coverage. The rain next day sharply narrowed the window for testing, leading to the Safety Commission rejecting it, adding to the controvery.

Rossi taking 2nd & both Hondas crashing was a stroke of luck though (from Michelin's perspective).
 
Iamapony said:
Are you kidding? You pulled a quote from the day before the following was written by him. This was posted before, and the source was questioned. I said Ryder had credibility. You are now going back to BEFORE he had more information. That is just not right. It's like going back before the Nazis took over Germany and saying Hitler is an enthusiastic idealist.
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The information isn't contradictory at all. The riders didn't want a tyre test - they had only one mostly wet day available; they had to focus on the race. That doesn't mean the riders in question weren't interested in testing a different tyre.

Now if they had four dry sessions available - different matter.
 
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JPSLotus said:
Leads back to the original contention that a few here have had that JKant prefers to move goalposts around and to selectively use quotes when he thinks they benefit them while disregarding anything else that may run counter to it from the same person he originally quotes like the case is with Julian Ryder as you just proved.

The issue I have with all of these cited quotes of his is that the wording is all quite similar which leads me to believe all of the writers who wrote the MM, CC, DP, and AD as wanting the one tire back, must have gotten it from the same source in GP....a source that everyone has access to. Makes you wonder. My suspicion is it comes directly from Michelin...just a matter of who at Michelin since there's little deviation from writer to writer.
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Daniboy said:
Cal Crutchlow's contribution to this.

MotoGP riders didn't want Argentinian GP 'tyre test' - MotoGP - Autosport
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Thank you. This should hopefully clarify matters sufficiently.


"Some guys have said [to Michelin], 'Can you bring something harder?', and I'm one of those guys," LCR satellite rider Crutchlow said.

"Eight guys said [in Qatar] the front tyre was too soft.

"But they've brought it at the wrong race. We had a rear tyre we had to do five laps on, we had four front tyres, and in the end Friday was a complete tyre test.

"You get absolutely nothing done all day, that's the reason why the riders in the Safety Commission decided not to run it.

"It's good of Michelin to be able to bring it, and good of them to react fast to some comments, I have to give them credit for that because it's not easy.

"Maybe it wasn't feasible to use it here."
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