This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

You're ignoring the fact that I was backing MV even while he was on the Suzuki before any of us knew he would end up on the M1.

To be honest since you dedicate 99% of your posts to someone else, I genuinely hadn't noticed. Perhaps it got lost in the yellow haze?

always viewed MV as a rider with a ton of potential that didn't get the same red carpet treatment that MM received so he was being overlooked.

Steady, you're inviting that definition of irony again.

It's not simply that MV is threat to VR, he's a huge threat to MM! Best way to knock MM off the top is for another young & hungry rider who is every bit as fast to keep pressure on him causing MM to make unforced errors (just like what happened at Argentina).

Strange - why would you like to see Márquez forced into errors? - it sounds almost as though Marc's crash gave you pleasure. Surely you'd like to see as many riders as possible battling it out at the front? I would.

Rossi is now in a position where he can just focus on getting consistent podiums while he continues to work on improving his feel with the tires

And if that doesn't work, he can always place an order for some different ones.

Marquez will likely return to Murder Mac mode and DNF himself out of title contention leaving just MV & VR to fight it out.

Surely you'd rather see as many riders as possible fighting for the championship? Isn't it better to see your heroes beat a competitive Márquez - why would you want him to crash? You pretty much confirmed the content of my last post that far from being a motorcycle racing enthusiast, you're nothing more that a glory hunting fanboy.

I'm hoping Vinales officially makes Marquez his ..... at COTA.

Yeah, I think you may have already said.

I'm hoping for a Valentino, Viñales or even better, a Tech 3 win to end Honda's domination at the circuit, or even a different HRC rider, but above all, a close race would be nice regardless of the winner.

What day are you arriving in Austin?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
My objection was never to other riders having a different preference, it was to a tyre with which and for which the 2012 Honda was developed being removed after the bike had been substantially developed, as Nakamoto says in the interview to which I finally did manage to link, for a new tyre which was in his view imposed on Honda by Loris Capirossi supposedly for safety reasons despite Honda's as it proved correct concerns about the durability of the new tyre.
The new tyres as I understand it, were introduced because they were popular with most the grid rather than for safety reasons.

That was unfortunate for HRC & the Repsol team. Then again, we are talking about HRC. They still had a bigger budget than everyone else put together. They still had the best bike on the grid with the fancy new seamless gearbox, as well as the strongest team with loads of development experience led by a bonafide alien.

In many ways, Honda is to the manufacturers what Rossi is to the riders.

You are extremely likely to be better at googling than I am, but on a brief attempt I could find very little on tyres in the 2012 GP racing season in general, and it is hardly surprising, since pretty much no-one will have had any ongoing interest, if what remains is in the archives of a motogp forum. Another thing that post proves is that Jumkie and I were contemporary observers of the events and actively involved in contemporary discussions of them, and hence perhaps more likely to be informed about what was out there at the time than you are, as is Birdman.
I quoted Jumkie's post because of the 'vote' bit. He said in his post that there had been no formal rider vote (of the sort you see in the Safety Commission) and that Bridgestone had introduced the new tyres after getting individual feedback from all of the riders. His opinions on a subjective issue like control tyres may have changed but this a fairly objective & factual topic.

Its also supported by every publicly available source on the issue that I've found.

As I said, a preference was expressed at a riders' vote not long before the Silverstone race, my question (and Nakamoto's at the time) was why an existing tyre needed to be removed mid season, and hence my further question why a vote needed to be held; neither Honda nor Stoner were at all opposed to the new tyre being available in addition to the old one for those who favoured it. That you regard Honda actually being correct in regard to concerns about a tyre imposed upon them ostensibly for safety reasons being faulty/suboptimal as unimportant speaks volumes for your general attitude. Rossi actually admitted later that he had nothing to lose in the vote because the Ducati couldn't use the Honda/Stoner tyre as Birdman said.
The new tyre was introduced at the start of the season and it was announced that both would be available until the British GP to allow everyone (read: HRC) to adapt to the new tyres.

Should both have been available to all teams for the whole season? Sure. But then, like most things MotoGP related, its primarily a money issue. Bridgestone wanted to reduce the allotment back down to 9 tyres (from the 11 fromts available upto Silverstone).

My personal opinion, which I expressed in JPS' 'ideal tyre' thread, has always been that the supplier ought to make a wide selection of tyres available to the riders at all rounds. And stop focusing on lap times & lap records that are distraction in terms of resources & effort.
 
Last edited:
Now what is it exactly you are trying to say. It wasn't just Rossi who wanted a harder option post Qatar, it was also the Honda riders? After listening to this request Michelin decided to bring a hard carcuss soft tire that none of the riddrs would be able to use for the race? Michelin are a bit deaf and dumb are they? Is this the best you got to refute this was not the Rossi tire?
In your opinion, would Rossi have raced a soft front at Rio Hondo if the #70 were available?

The Honda ridees are the hard runners, why the .... should Michelin change the construction of the medium tire for Honda? No reason at all. Why should they change the medium construction for Valentino? Occam's razor, it's obvious, so he can beat Vinales. You know, the guy who's dominating the championship so far making the racing boring.
So why didn't they bring a different medium to Argentina? Actually, why didn't they get it to the Qatar test so that Rossi could try it and then run his preferred choice two weeks later at the opening round?
 
FTFY there JK

Oh, and my I just say 'pit to bike communications'
???

What became of that? AFAIK the rider radios advocated by Rossi were rejected outright. Then there was some talk about text message options but I've not heard anything about it this season (unlike the remote identification system for tyres). Maybe I missed something but it didn't seem like anybody in the pits was doing any communicating during the races. The commentators didn't mention it either.
 
Again, how do you know this without being privy to the inner sanctum of Clermont Ferrand what is being planned for COTA or beyond? Michelin have already strongly alluded to both constructions being available at Austin. I would suggest that if the compound is amenable, the option to race the #70 will be there.
Please excuse the language there - point is, there's no decision to replace the existing tyre at the moment (that's what I assumed was meant by 'bring it back'). They'd probably allow it to be used for the race but its still an experiment intended primarily to collect feedback.

However, this thread is increasingly moot - particularly given that Valentino's team have 'found something' and 'turned a corner' (without the #6 tyre de-forming). That being the case, it will be interesting to see the extent of any future valuation of the #70 carcass at the request of say, just Cal Crutchlow and Andrea Iannone.
Unless he's comfortable with the idea of trailing Vinales by 37 points, I'd say Marquez probably shares Crutchlow's opinion (esp. since their riding styles aren't unsimilar).

On the other hand, Michelin probably feel a bit stung after the press from recent events, so..

I did mention that chatter was a major factor in its overwhelming rejection. Earlier, you said this, remember?...

And in spite of this chatter...

"According to a Michelin spokesman, Rossi was the only member of the 23-rider MotoGP contingent to express preference for the harder casing at the close of testing."
Acc. to Goubert, the Yamahas and 'a few others' suffered chatter on the harder tyre. In that sense, yes it is a bit surprising that he'd still want to try it - maybe that's because of how his bike's developed.

Can I suggest that you find the Dorna produced Márquez documentary 'From Cervera to Tokyo'. If you genuinely love motorcycle racing, this is wonderful viewing - impossible not to warm to the guy.
I'll definitely check it out. I tried to get my father interested in MotoGP but he was a little uncomfortable with the idea of high speeds esp. high speed crashes (despite how effective modern racing suits are). He'll still watch if I'm visiting and its on. Really likes Marquez though, not because of his spectacular braking style but because I showed him this clip -



In discussing tyres Nakamoto observes that Marc will invariably request the hardest option - "Marc always says harder, harder, harder". Of course he is referring to compound, but as you have quite correctly pointed out, why wouldn't Marc also be interested in at least evaluating a stiffer construction in the future?
As I recall, Stoner expressed somewhat similar preferences. The interesting thing is that Marquez raced and won at COTA on the soft front last year. Pushed to build a lead for 15 laps or so and then managed it to the finish line. The RCV's changed a great deal since then but still I wouldn't be surprised if a new stiffer soft had some appeal for next week.


During this weekend we have all done a really good job together. I want to say this victory is not only for me and my team, but for my Michelin Technician, because he convinced me that the soft front tire option was good for me and it would be the right option for my riding style and that really convinced me. With this choice I was able to do a great race and I am very happy with the result. Now we go to Europe, these are tracks that are very different to where we have already been and also Michelin has more experience on them – because the tracks are older – so we will try to work hard again when we get there. - Marc Marquez, post-COTA 2016
 
Last edited:
Yes I did read MM , I actually agree that the post Jerez test is the best time to give the tyre a workout and see if it's worth using for the substantial amount of riders asking for it. Just for arguments sake, what if Rossi had been happy with the current tyre and 8 other riders weren't, I'd still expect something similar to what we've seen.

And pigs might fly

Riders would have been laughed at, called whingers and told to learn to ride the tyre as it is as things ain't gonna change




Yes but not to the extent that you think .
Didn't Marquez also receive preferential treatment in his fasttrack into Repsol Honda?

Others have beat me to it but a stupid rule was repealed that allowed it to occur.

Not sure if the preferential was for him however or Honda as HRC were to lose the man they wanted to keep (so I suspect if CS had not retired, the rookie rule would have gone on longer - stupid rule)



It would have been fascinating to see if Rossi would have come good on his threat to quit motogp in 2008 if he didnt get Bridgestone tires. I can definitely envision Stoner remaining champion then. Funny thing if Stoner had of threatened to quit for not being able to go to Michelin in 2009. Response, don't let the door hit you on the way out. No preferential treatment there.


Fascinating, yes but for whether it would have happened I say go back to the pigs may fly comment.

As you know, from time to time it crops up that he 'may' try something else, but every time he returns to the sport that gives him the adulation as he likes to be a big fish in a small pond.


The Rossi fans are clearly going to switch to Vinales as their agent of revenge on the villainous MM, but I can't see myself doing other than continuing to be impressed by him despite that.

Give them time Mike.

I am sure that many of the current yellow horde will find a reason to dislike Vinales, they just need to be told what that reason may be
 
Last edited:
There's plenty of time for Rossi to turn on Maverick yet, especially if he fails to get everyone on #70s this year. You can be sure though at some point they will be re-introduced due to "safety" reasons.
Does anyone else suspect Rossi's true motive is to get everyone on the #70s that he favours and away from the current tyres?

To be totally fair, every one of these riders wants an advantage that suits them, preferably suits only them so VR is no different.

Whilst we all want to look and hope that these guys want a fully transparent and open playing field, what they want is their own fully transparent and open playing field so in that aspect I have no issue with VR wanting it.

But I do have an issue if DORNA allow it and force the change on riders who may be comfortable with the existing tyre, particularly when (yes, I say when) they use a ........ excuse.

Absolute only scenario that should be entertained is allow all types of tyres ................... aaaaaand the old chestnut of control tyres appears again
 
- this puerile tribalism is frankly obsessional.

In two words you've distilled what I've been complaining about (all of us actually) with regards to the Valeban - for lo these many years. All this crap about being in his head. Pffttt! The whole Lord Of The Flies thang, that I detest so much.
 
???

What became of that? AFAIK the rider radios advocated by Rossi were rejected outright. Then there was some talk about text message options but I've not heard anything about it this season (unlike the remote identification system for tyres). Maybe I missed something but it didn't seem like anybody in the pits was doing any communicating during the races. The commentators didn't mention it either.


One rider wanted it ............. the rest in some way rejected it

DORNA considered it and there were articles stating that DORNA were to allow it together with some testing at races last year


DORNA working on the system - https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/motogp-working-on-pit-to-rider-communication-system-806715/

More, but with some critical riders - https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...al-of-pit-to-rider-communication-plan-807564/

Whilst I cannot find it I am sure that there was tests around Valencia last year but nothing found with a rudimentary search

Point/fact is ............ one riders spoke ............... one organisation listened
 
In two words you've distilled what I've been complaining about (all of us actually) with regards to the Valeban - for lo these many years. All this crap about being in his head. Pffttt! The whole Lord Of The Flies thang, that I detest so much.

But, if if Marquez were to accidentally swallow a fly, would that fly not be in his head?

It can happen ............... :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
So he would effectively treat that fly that gets in his head as ...., so was it really in his head or was it always just ....?
 
You're ignoring the fact that I was backing MV even while he was on the Suzuki before any of us knew he would end up on the M1. I always viewed MV as a rider with a ton of potential that didn't get the same red carpet treatment that MM received so he was being overlooked. This forum has been pro-Marquez for a long time and I love that Vinales has Marquez fans shook and already coming up with excuses when we're only 2 races into the season. It's not simply that MV is threat to VR, he's a huge threat to MM! Best way to knock MM off the top is for another young & hungry rider who is every bit as fast to keep pressure on him causing MM to make unforced errors (just like what happened at Argentina). Rossi is now in a position where he can just focus on getting consistent podiums while he continues to work on improving his feel with the tires and the '17 M1 and look to finish strong. Marquez will likely return to Murder Mac mode and DNF himself out of title contention leaving just MV & VR to fight it out.

I'm hoping Vinales officially makes Marquez his ..... at COTA.
So you make a post which proves what has been contended.

This forum was anti-Marquez when he started in the premier class, Jumkie and I in particular thinking he was careless and reckless with the Willairot incident a prime example, and Jumkie that he was the one now getting favours from Dorna. It was hard to deny his riding in 2014 (just at it is with Vinales so far on a Yamaha) and him standing up to and being unbowed by the Rossi cult, with Rossi's active participation in the tarring and feathering nakedly apparent, together with him tempering the recklessness of his riding so that he could no longer be called murder Marc brought me to a re-assessment of him, although I still was for Lorenzo winning the 2016 title.

Everyone on here, including you no doubt, picked Vinales' potential when he was in moto 2 when it was less obvious to the wider GP world. I among others had some doubts about his ability in traffic/passing and race craft/ability to maintain pace race long, possibly because he was having difficulty passing people in races and dropping off in the late stages of races last season on the Suzuki. When it became apparent once he got on the Yamaha that it was almost certain that he had been flattering the Suzuki rather than the reverse I posted to that effect.

This is what vaguely fair minded people do, change their mind on the basis of evidence and observed events.
 
Last edited:
The new tyres as I understand it, were introduced because they were popular with most the grid rather than for safety reasons.

That was unfortunate for HRC & the Repsol team. Then again, we are talking about HRC. They still had a bigger budget than everyone else put together. They still had the best bike on the grid with the fancy new seamless gearbox, as well as the strongest team with loads of development experience led by a bonafide alien.

In many ways, Honda is to the manufacturers what Rossi is to the riders.


I quoted Jumkie's post because of the 'vote' bit. He said in his post that there had been no formal rider vote (of the sort you see in the Safety Commission) and that Bridgestone had introduced the new tyres after getting individual feedback from all of the riders. His opinions on a subjective issue like control tyres may have changed but this a fairly objective & factual topic.

Its also supported by every publicly available source on the issue that I've found.


The new tyre was introduced at the start of the season and it was announced that both would be available until the British GP to allow everyone (read: HRC) to adapt to the new tyres.

Should both have been available to all teams for the whole season? Sure. But then, like most things MotoGP related, its primarily a money issue. Bridgestone wanted to reduce the allotment back down to 9 tyres (from the 11 fromts available upto Silverstone).

My personal opinion, which I expressed in JPS' 'ideal tyre' thread, has always been that the supplier ought to make a wide selection of tyres available to the riders at all rounds. And stop focusing on lap times & lap records that are distraction in terms of resources & effort.

So you are arguing that it was OK to handicap Honda because Stoner looked too strong in testing? As Stoner himself more or less said, it was fine when Doohan was winning 5 in a row or Rossi three in a row for Honda.

Read the Nakamoto interview I posted, in which he clearly says the tyre changes were justified as being for safety reasons by Loris Capirossi. What Nakamoto objected to was the ground being shifted under Honda in regard to weight and tyres etc after the bike had been developed under the existing regulations/proclaimed formula for a year or more, with all the expense and effort on the part of his riders and test riders that involved. Such late changes were a fairly basic alteration in how premier class prototype bike racing operated, with mid stream changes usually having only been made for safety reasons, and more akin to how WSBK was operated under the Flammini brothers.

I actually expected you to say the old tyre could not continue along with the new for expense reasons because that was indeed the justification, and my immediate thought when you came up with your recent sophistry in regard to it being no problem for Michelin to bring many more tyres to a race week-end in relation to the recent extra tyre controversy. It is also ridiculous and hypocritical to make teams spend much more money to re-design their bikes to fit with capricious tyre and other rule changes when the supposed justification for the control tyre in the first place is reducing costs, which I have consistently argued these last 8 years or more.
 
In your opinion, would Rossi have raced a soft front at Rio Hondo if the #70 were available?


So why didn't they bring a different medium to Argentina? Actually, why didn't they get it to the Qatar test so that Rossi could try it and then run his preferred choice two weeks later at the opening round?

I'm not convinced it was a soft front. What's the point of bringing an unusable compound to evaluate? Maybe as a potential flag to flag rain affected race. Marquez seams to think the tire could be beneficial for him. That tells me it's a harder construction medium tire made to help stability for the late brakers.

So perhaps they did bring a different medium to Argentina. We dont really know, they didn't get the chance to try it. Perhaps Rossi would already have won the race making it one each.

Why didn't they bring it to the Qatar test. Because Michelin quite rightly may have pointed out the medium is a true medium, any rider who finds it too soft or lacking stability should use the hard designation tire. Maybe after running this medium designed to improve feel, after receiving positive feedback from the majority of riders, and after spending a significant amount of time developing the machines around said tire, Michelin were reluctant to change the construction so soon without even running a single race on it. Maybe they wanted to ..... the results of their R&D.

There is far less attention to testing than a race weekend. The pressure to change the tire appears to have begun post practice and qualifying at Qatar. I'd say that's a fast reaction time, to have the #70 tire ready by the next race.

Overall, Rossi has been very impressive. For sure as usual he is proving his greatness. But at the same time Vinales has blown me away, ditto the tech 3 riders. I always relish new blood on the grid. Imo even Lorenzo if he were still on the Yamaha would be struggling to keep up with Vinales outright speed and consistency. I seam to recall Lorenzo struggling with the Yamaha on worn tires. Vinales appears to have cracked that code and now reaps the benefits. Unfortunately he's quickly becoming the forgotten man, I'm disappointed Michelin are not referring to Vinales in regards to the medium tire to point out he has worked extremely hard all off season and 2 complete races to whittle out a small advantage, and it's now up to the other riders including Valentino to respond and outwork Vinales, not simply complain and change the tires. There is no safety issue with the medium requiring an urgent change. No need for a knee jerk reaction.

My opinion, Rossi has been struggling trying to use his preferred late braking style on the new medium. He has been looking for that magic bullet, but it hasn't come. He knows exactly what Vinales is doing, and come race day he adopts the same setup and style as Vinales. He has no choice, Vinales rides both the bike and the current tire exactly as it needs to be ridden. Yet it's apparent while Rossi can, for lack of a better word, get a tow of Vinales during the race, Vinales can up the pace at will and Rossi so far has no answer. In fact during preseason Rossi has specifically referred to the new Yamaha riders being faster than him and employing a style which doesn't suit him. It was the thing that made him 'sad' I believe, being the slowest Yamaha.

If the revised tire comes out in the next scheduled test and it is a true improvement on the current medium for ALL or majority of riders then fine that's how it should be. But what this is, the way it actually happened was the new medium came out back at Valencia and all the medium riders bar one preferred it. Note this doesnt include Honda, I'd be surprised if they bothered to run it seriously particularly Marquez as he would be focussing efforts on developing the hard front he runs 90 % of the time. That's why I question the recent disjointed attempts to include Honda riders as proof of the need to change the medium after just one race. Especially when Honda riders particularly Crutchlow have been saying the Honda is still a very difficult bike to ride and a long way off, if I were Michelin I would be saying worry about your bike more and the tires less as an excuse for not beating Vinales.

No the Honda rider thing is a smokescreen, this is definitely more to do with Rossi. Ocams Razor. Btw I don't blame Rossi one bit. If I were in his shoes I'd try and do exactly what he's doing, would be a fool not to. I just feel Vinales is getting exactly what he deserves for the work he's put in and would hate to see it taken away from him in the name of entertainment.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
I'm not convinced it was a soft front.What's the point of bringing an unusable compound to evaluate? Maybe as a potential flag to flag rain affected race. Marquez seams to think the tire could be beneficial for him. That tells me it's a harder construction medium tire made to help stability for the late brakers.

So perhaps they did bring a different medium to Argentina. We dont really know, they didn't get the chance to try it. Perhaps Rossi would already have won the race making it one each.
No they brought a soft. It was intended to generate data and get reviews from the riders (probably in terms of 'feel'), possibly to develop it for further review at a different track.

Nicholas Goubert of Michelin -

"Without the strike we would have had test results on the Friday and we would more-or-less know by now if we are right, or if we have to change something... As it was, there were hardly any crashes and people were okay with the normal tyre allocation."

The Frenchman added that the plan was never to race the extra tyre, since it would only be offered in a soft compound and "nobody is going to go with the soft compound if it is fully dry."


I doubt it would be used even on a flag-to-flag. On a rarely used dirty abrasive track like Rio Hondo, the medium is usually better than the soft even over short distances and not just because of the wear. When adhesion is low because of dust or water, as it always is on a coarse track like this, the fine protrusions/points on the track tear into the surface of a soft tyre while a harder compound is able to grip them and flex without tearing.

Maybe after running this medium designed to improve feel, after receiving positive feedback from the majority of riders, and after spending a significant amount of time developing the machines around said tire, Michelin were reluctant to change the construction so soon without even running a single race on it. Maybe they wanted to ..... the results of their R&D.
They could have run both fronts at Qatar.

Unfortunately he's quickly becoming the forgotten man, I'm disappointed Michelin are not referring to Vinales in regards to the medium tire to point out he has worked extremely hard all off season and 2 complete races to whittle out a small advantage, and it's now up to the other riders including Valentino to respond and outwork Vinales, not simply complain and change the tires.
According to Michelin that is what they said to Rossi (or something along the same lines) while passing over his request to a test a stiffer front. Until Qatar that is, when other riders chimed in.
 
Last edited:
So you are arguing that it was OK to handicap Honda because Stoner looked too strong in testing? As Stoner himself more or less said, it was fine when Doohan was winning 5 in a row or Rossi three in a row for Honda.

So I'm arguing that HRC was unfortunate in terms of their preferences being at odds with rest of the grid but given their resources & experience, were better equipped to cope with the changes than any other manufacturer/team.

Read the Nakamoto interview I posted, in which he clearly says the tyre changes were justified as being for safety reasons by Loris Capirossi. What Nakamoto objected to was the ground being shifted under Honda in regard to weight and tyres etc after the bike had been developed under the existing regulations/proclaimed formula for a year or more, with all the expense and effort on the part of his riders and test riders that involved. Such late changes were a fairly basic alteration in how premier class prototype bike racing operated, with mid stream changes usually having only been made for safety reasons, and more akin to how WSBK was operated under the Flammini brothers.
No mention of 'safety reasons' being quoted by Capirossi in Nakamoto's interview, just calls it a 'better choice' (ostensibly based on rider reviews).

And then on top of that, Bridgestone brought out a new front tire with a different construction. We complained that the new tire was unusable since it didn’t have sufficient rigidity, but Dorna’s Loris Capirossi insisted that it was a better choice and so we had to fit it.

The 2012 specification tyres debuted in Nov 2011 (and were superceded at the start of the racing season), so I'm curious to know what tyres had Honda been designing the RCV around for a year or more.

I actually expected you to say the old tyre could not continue along with the new for expense reasons because that was indeed the justification, and my immediate thought when you came up with your recent sophistry in regard to it being no problem for Michelin to bring many more tyres to a race week-end in relation to the recent extra tyre controversy. It is also ridiculous and hypocritical to make teams spend much more money to re-design their bikes to fit with capricious tyre and other rule changes when the supposed justification for the control tyre in the first place is reducing costs, which I have consistently argued these last 8 years or more.
Are you comparing Michelin's shipping costs for delivering existing tyres to Argentina to the cost of providing a different configuration of tyres to the entire grid for the 13 races?

As for the argument about hypocrisy, I can make that too - if manufacturers like Honda were interested in saving money for the teams they'd have made their bike leases more affordable and half the grid wouldn't have been running CRTs.

In an ideal world, the tyre manufacturer would provide the grid with a wider selection of tyres for the full season. In the real world, it splits its resources towards breaking/retaining lap records, a legacy of the tyre wars.
 
Last edited:
No they brought a soft. It was intended to generate data and get reviews from the riders (probably in terms of 'feel'), possibly to develop it for further review at a different track.

Nicholas Goubert of Michelin -

"Without the strike we would have had test results on the Friday and we would more-or-less know by now if we are right, or if we have to change something... As it was, there were hardly any crashes and people were okay with the normal tyre allocation."

The Frenchman added that the plan was never to race the extra tyre, since it would only be offered in a soft compound and "nobody is going to go with the soft compound if it is fully dry."


I doubt it would be used even on a flag-to-flag. On a rarely used dirty abrasive track like Rio Hondo, the medium is usually better than the soft even over short distances and not just because of the wear. When adhesion is low because of dust or water, as it always is on a coarse track like this, the fine protrusions/points on the track tear into the surface of a soft tyre while a harder compound is able to grip them and flex without tearing.


They could have run both fronts at Qatar.


According to Michelin that is what they said to Rossi (or something along the same lines) while passing over his request to a test a stiffer front. Until Qatar that is, when other riders chimed in.

What specifically is the problem with the current tires which requires this urgent shipping and assessment of a new designation tire? You answer little itty bitty questions with little itty bitty bits of information or quotes and never get around to answering the big question, where are the tires of mass destruction? The answer is there are none, no safety issue. The tire crusade has another hidden purpose, to tap into a rich vein of yellow oil. You might not be able to find a quote from George Gubert Bush admitting to it and crying conspiracy or tin foil hat etc etc isn't proof to discount the possibility it's true.

I find it highly amusing in fact Kropo cries conspiracy in an attempt to convince me Rossi has not specifically asked for a Rossi spec tire. Again I stated Rossi would be fool not to, and given the negative press from Rossi saying he isn't happy with the current tires Michelin would be fools not to listen to him and do something about it. This isn't the Area 51 hidden aliens in the closet hypothesis some people want to make out it is. More like is there oil in the desert.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
So I'm arguing that HRC was unfortunate in terms of their preferences being at odds with rest of the grid but given their resources & experience, were better equipped to cope with the changes than any other manufacturer/team.


No mention of 'safety reasons' being quoted by Capirossi in Nakamoto's interview, just calls it a 'better choice' (ostensibly based on rider reviews).

And then on top of that, Bridgestone brought out a new front tire with a different construction. We complained that the new tire was unusable since it didn’t have sufficient rigidity, but Dorna’s Loris Capirossi insisted that it was a better choice and so we had to fit it.

The 2012 specification tyres debuted in Nov 2011 (and were superceded at the start of the racing season), so I'm curious to know what tyres had Honda been designing the RCV around for a year or more.


Are you comparing Michelin's shipping costs for delivering existing tyres to Argentina to the cost of providing a different configuration of tyres to the entire grid for the 13 races?

As for the argument about hypocrisy, I can make that too - if manufacturers like Honda were interested in saving money for the teams they'd have made their bike leases more affordable and half the grid wouldn't have been running CRTs.

In an ideal world, the tyre manufacturer would provide the grid with a wider selection of tyres for the full season. In the real world, it splits its resources towards breaking/retaining lap records, a legacy of the tyre wars.

You were given links to two direct quotes from major parties in the 2012 HRC team.

Dani Pedrosa said "The reason they say for changing the tyre is safety". (EDIT see link on post 577; the article also refers to the "old" tyre as the original spec tyre, from which perhaps inferences could be drawn).

Nakamoto said "Bridgestone brought out a new front tire with a different construction. We complained that the new tire was unusable since it didn't have sufficient rigidity, but Dorna's Loris Capirossi insisted that it was a better choice and we had to fit it".

Reasonable inference, perhaps?

And why exactly was HRC winning a title after not doing so for 4 years and looking very competitive for a second in testing a grave crisis for the sport?

As Birdman says all you have is trying to pick at minor details in the arguments of others while having no substantive arguments of your own. This is not something to which I am unaccustomed, having debated the infamous Wosi at some length on another forum for a year or more. He at least had a quite deep knowledge of the sport.

As it happens I am a Ducati fan when it comes to bikes. I am grateful to Honda for signing 3 Australian riders of whom I was a fan, particularly of Doohan and Stoner, and providing them with bikes which were of sufficient quality for them to win world titles. Dorna' s reaction to Stoner winning on a bike which had never won a title before, pretty much the acme of Dorna's ambition to increase competitiveness I would have thought according to what you argue, was remarkably similar to when he won on a Honda ie changes to the tyres, and in particular taking away a tyre which especially suited Stoner.

As I have said I carry no torch for Honda, but it is simply not historically correct that they are the dominant marque, Honda and Yamaha basically standing at dead even in terms of riders' titles won in the pre-season prior to the 2012 championship.

I can hardly be bothered to address the tawdry sophistry involved in you arguing that Honda basically deserved to incur the expense of re-developing their bikes in response to a capricious tyre change, given Ducati and Suzuki had obviously suffered similarly previously. Bottom line is that your cost saving argument in regard to the control tyre is not to put too fine a point on it complete ........, both Bridgestone and Michelin specifically said they did not want a control tyre rule, redeveloping bikes to suit tires rather than the reverse is always going to be orders of magnitude more expensive, and guess what it is actually Honda and Ducati who manufacture the bikes for the satellite teams.

I am entirely fine with the control ECU, it would appear at this stage to be that unusual phenomenon, a good Dorna idea. However it was also in the terms of the 2016 formula/regulations from the get-go, according to which the manufacturers built and developed their bikes, not an 11th hour change.
 
Last edited: