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MotoGP: 2016 Round 02 - Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina (SPOILERS)

That toxic atmosphere and Jarvis' failure to bring him to order could be what drives Lorenzo into the welcoming arms of Ducati.
Rossi's taunting won't bother Lorenzo but he's very principled and will see Yamaha's failure to quiet Rossi as failure to giving him equal status.
Jarvis and Yamaha could come to regret this in the future, especially with Marquez possibly on the rampage like in 2014.
 
Nice stuff Arrab...I'll ask again since you missed my request...would you mind giving a write-up of the farcical Honda 4-strokes of 2002-2003?

Not at all, I apologise I missed your post. However perhaps I should add the disclaimer that these are simply my own opinions and observations albeit derived from established facts as best as I recall them. Further, I really don't think that I'm offering any real revelations or insight here - it's simply how I saw it at the time. Although, in 2002 I distinctly remember some very interesting observations from those that inherited 'Rossi spec' machinery. Read on...

I believe my use of the word farcical was directed at the 2002 and 2003 titles as opposed to the machinery itself and contend that relatively speaking, the mighty 5 cylinder RCV211 was the probably the most immediately complete prototype race machine ever built by HRC. As opposed to the two stroke era, correct me if I'm wrong, but engines arrived sealed from the factory, they were run until their service life expired and were largely maintenance free obviously not requiring the rebuild intervals of their two stroke counterparts. Although by todays standards the electronics were primitive, they represented a sea change in race preparation and set up. Gone was the fine art of tuning, performance was now tweaked by pre-set software adjustments - in the case of HRC these stole a march on the other factories and were well understood and with a higher level of sophistication. Also bear in mind that with although pre fly by wire? with the predictable throttle response and the broader torque curves and granted, monstrous power, the 990s initially exacted less demand on chassis and tyres whilst set up was less challenging than the 500s - (although I would argue that the excessive horsepower was to become an issue). Hitherto, it may have taken four or five hours to arrive at a base setting for the NSR, not to mention finely fettling the finicky two stroke chassis and suspension in harmony with a circuit and the prevailing conditions - the four strokes were far less labour intensive. I recall Brent Stephens commenting in retrospect that you could race the V5 out of the crate and previously being accustomed to the high maintenance NSR, they used to play around with the settings of the RCV simply for want of something to do. So the advantages of the V5 in terms of rideability and conservation of time and resources were instant and indisputable. I do however remember Rossi saying that the new bike were much easier to ride fast but due to its innate neutrality, was much harder to effect change unlike the temperamental but sensitive highly strung two strokes, where if you got it right, you could instantly find a second and a half out of nowhere.

Also of note was that the 500cc projects were purely the preserve of HRC, whereas, the RCV project was the result of collaboration between the racing wing and central R&D of the Honda Corporation which meant that from the off, they chose to integrate the new bike into the factory structure - presumably to accord with marketing strategy and product planning and as far as I am aware, was something that had never been done before. Initially the look of the RCV was mirrored by the blade, but the future plan was to introduce an actual road going version (what an emasculated lump the 1000cc proddy Honda eventually turned out to be. This may have compromised the sharpness of the bike in contrast to the 500, but massively raised the stakes in budget and support and also produced an amenable package which was highly user friendly albeit lacking the more acute parameters of adjustment of the two stroke.

The other huge development in 2002 was the second generation 16.5 inch tyre. In previous posts I've mentioned Rossi's insistence that he should also have the 'McCoy' spec but crucially in his defence he understood why the lab rat was able to exploit such a bespoke and idiosyncratic tyre and how to use it himself. The rest of the paddock following suit, struggled - not least in durability and management..but we'll come to that. The new S4 suited both two stokes and four strokes but as I recall, quickly Michelin produced special tyre concessions for the heavier more powerful four strokes together with dual compound tyres which were not availed to the two stokes. Remember also that the woefully inadequate GSV began its life as a dunlop shod bike. In my opinion Suzuki had never recovered from the complacency of winning the title in 2000 and the lack of development left them severely hampered up until their recent hiatus. Eventually switching to Bridgestone, unlike Ducati who took a step backwards to go forwards, they attempted to engineer the tyres to the bike instead of the other way around. The introduction of Bridgestone was fascinating, didn't McWilliams brilliantly get a pole and VDG also park the KR Proton on the front row at PI? Very indicative of what was to come.

So Honda were first off the blocks in 2002 - the investment had been massive, the resources huge and the smaller marques Yamaha, Aprilia, Suzuki and the later entrance of Kawasaki floundered in comparison. Perhaps most significantly, the non factory field consisted of the irrelevant and defunct 500cc - in the hands of some very capable riders, but on a hiding to nothing. In fairness, no one really knew how the new four strokes would fair against their two-stroke counterparts. I know for a fact that in spite of formidable test results, a fully functioning 2001 NSR was to hand should the V5 have lost races. The FIM later conceded that the 990cc ceiling was a precautionary measure in the event of this scenario and that the displacement perhaps excessively over compensated for this eventuality. They had no need for concern...the two stokes were hopelessly outclassed and basically annihilated. An inglorious slaughter and a humiliating undignified and ignominious end to a golden age. There was one race - just one, where it seemed that their nimble handling may prevail. Sachsenring was at that time traditionally a Yamaha circuit. The slick quick turning of the YZR completely gelled with the tricky and tight characteristics of the circuit. Barros and OJ lead the race from Rossi, who undoubtably had much in hand, but the lithe two strokes had streaked away from the pursuing V5 behemoth - unable to fully flex its muscle. Perhaps Rossi was poised to pounce upon his prey? Going into turn one several laps from the end, Barros, usually a genius on the brakes missed his marker, trail braked too deep, and took out the Yam of Jacque. We will never know - but clearly Honda would not have wanted a museum piece beating their new fangled showpiece.

The purpose of this discussion is to set the scene. Rossi rode that motorcycle on merit - he was there through talent alone and still had to prove himself on the 500cc bike. I have already debated the circumstances of this with J4n0 and maintain that the Burgess/Rossi alliance was a forged by HRC with the intention of inheriting the RCV211 project and that even in 2001 the advantages in machinery and tyres were massive. Initially, there were two factory seats available. the second could have gone to Criville. In the event 2000 was a disaster and test mule Tohru Ukawa was lined up for the ride - even he himself winning a race at only his second outing. The record books show a second premier class title for Rossi...but read beyond that, remove the yellow tinted glasses and you have the most lop sided inequitable fields in the history of this sport. Even the appreciable advantages in machinery associated with Sheene's 76 title or Ago's domination through his association with the Count in the late sixties do not compare. It was all too easy and if you were there watching at the time, not only was the racing largely tedious, dull and processional, it was a foregone conclusion. Even the most ardent Rossi aficionado would be hard pressed to argue otherwise. The title was sewn up by round 12 - Rio. Yet the growing throng of glory hunters, seemingly either grossly ignorant of the sport or wholly in denial of the absurd advantages of being on the four stroke factory Honda in addition to the fact that half the competition was effectively eliminated before a wheel was so much turned in anger seemed to revel in the domination.

Even Honda's emerging great white hope, the mercurial Diajiro Kato was saddled with testing obligations at Gresini until the new parts quickly dried up. On the plus side, Honda Pons inherited Rossi's 2001 championship NSR. This next bit I remember vividly and I thought it was very significant coming from Rossi's best mate in racing. Loris Capirossi simply said, 'now I can see why Rossi won last year' - Not like me to embolden text for the purposes of sensationalism..but I thought that it was so telling at the time. Barros also said words to the effect that the Rossi spec bike in comparison the satellite equipment of 2001 allowed them to use one grade softer tyre for race distance!! ONE GRADE SOFTER TYRE FOR RACE DISTANCE...ffs. Think about that if ever you watch back the again ludicrously one sided 2001 season. Small wonder that Max always insisted that on a Michelin shod factory NSR he would do the same as Rossi and more. Actually I seriously doubt that, but although I believe that the 2001 title was brilliantly ridden, to the unblinkered objective neutral at the time, the advantages nonetheless manifest. 2002 on the other hand was a formality -a cakewalk. Max did stick in some valiant rides on the flawed M1 - which rumbled and popped delightfully on the overrun like a distant salvo of artillery. I remember he was always quick at Brno, but Rossi's tyre delaminated as I recall - perhaps that's what ushered in the upgrade for the 4 strokes, not sure. Kato was rewarded with a V5 - immediately securing a fourth I think, (I dunno BJ.C it or Wiki it). But much to the chagrin of Loris then Barros got one which he basically rode around the car park at Motegi before smoking Rossi in the race. He did the same at Valencia. Nonetheless, the record books tell us Valentino Rossi, World Champion - eleven wins and 330 odd points.

Which brings me to 2003...a far more interesting season but one which was marred for most of us by the tragic, freak and untimely death of Kato at Suzuka. Admirably, having inherited the factory ride, Telefonica contracted, non HRC Gresini rider Sete won at Welkom in tribute. Gibernau given parity, put in some great rides that year...memorably at LeMans and Sachsenring - both last corner moves on Rossi. After Italy, the notoriously fickle Italian press turned on and mauled Rossi. I clearly remember his reaction and look on his face in Parc Ferme after he was beaten by Sete, gone were the smiles, the joking, the shows of respect - the mask seriously slipped. It was here at that moment I believe that the relationship soured, not the 2005 sweeping incident at Losail - although revealingly Vale told the press at the time that he had been looking for a reason to fall out with Sete for a long time - and of course that Sete Gibernau would never win another race in MotoGP, which he didn't - although I'm not about to speculate on the many reasons as to why. At Sachsenring in 2003, it was clear that Rossi had a rival, that had made him look second best on 'his bike' - (even though Honda, much to Rossi's frustration, regarded its success as theirs) - and competition on equal terms wasn't in the script.

Valentino demured on his contract. The possibility of an outrageous move to Yamaha had resulted in a clandestine meeting with Brivio after dark at Donington whereby Vale actually stole into the Yamaha and sat on a factory M1. Brilliant stuff. As if this wasn't distraction enough, he also had the allure of F1 and the test at Ferrari. Honda, were certainly cognisant of the approaches from Yamaha long before Motegi where the move became a reality between the two parties. Not long after Doni, they had quickly learnt of the machinations behind the scenes and were anxious to retain him. However the dispute over image rights and the enduring ethos at HRC that the bike makes the rider as opposed to the reverse further alienated Rossi. That much is well documented...far more contentious was the later view of Fausto Gresini that Honda, mindful of the PR/marketing disaster associated with a defection to Yamaha, offered increased support to Rossi, curtailing the resources to Gibernau in a bid to retain Vales services. You decide. After the summer break, Vale won six of the remaining seven races...Sete won none - and in typical Sete 'Give up now' fashion began the first murmurings of a lack of support from Honda and a preference to their factory man.

Jeeez - is that the time? So much more to write about 2003.

The RCV211 was an intricate and integrated design. As Mike recently reminded us. the overall philosophy was to centralise the mass around a compact three forward two back configuration. The under seat tank was a hugely important aspect and the V5 was the first of its kind in motorcycle racing. I'm fairly certain that the 2002 bike was a 75 degree motor whereas the 2003 machine was even more compact an engine with a smaller degree vee angle (where's Krop or Lex when you need 'em?). Although HRC denied the use of TC, the bike did have a similar rudimentary three lever position mapping which had evolved from the NSR. With a similar twin spar chassis, unlike the two stroke predecessor, the RCV had a greater degree of lateral flex than the 500 but with more torsional rigidity. In short, like I say, it raced out of the box and despite the huge advantages it commanded over the rest of the field, those ongoing consignments of parts throughout 2002 and 2003 had Rossi's name on them together with the tyre containers shipped from Clermont Ferrand. I would have loved to have seen Kato's season unfold. His potential was immeasurable. Given Valentino's ailing relationship with Honda and given the similarly indomitable machine that he would have evolved beneath the arguably similarly talented Kato - himself an HRC prodigy, taking nothing away from Sete, but I strongly suspect that the 2003 title may have been engineered and steered in the direction of Japan instead of Italy.
 
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Addendum: Honda never forgave Valentino's defection and I believe although Lin Jarvis hinted on the gird at Silverstone in 2012 that the door remained ajar at Yamaha, at Honda Towers, access was permanently revoked. Personally, I never bought the ridiculous Coca-Cola Satellite Honda rumours, He locked himself out in 2003 - and why would he have wanted to return?

The wonderful EVO RCV of 2006 capitalised on Rossi's misfortunes in the consistent dependable hands of Nicky. In spite of this narrow victory, Honda had pledged that they would build a bike 'to destroy Rossi' by way of revenge. I always liked to believe that that infectious cheeky smile that was such an endearing hallmark of the younger mischievous Vale, broke out again when in 2007 they wheeled out the 'Pedrocycle'.
 
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Arrab thanks so much for taking the time to write that up!! Quite a fantastic read, I should have asked you to continue and just write a book. ;) It'd be nice if someone really wrote a non-hagiographic history of GP history during the Valentino Rossi era. I feel a lot of this is going to get white-washed or out-and-out eliminated from future histories.
 
I'm not insisting, I'm debating. There is a difference. Yes he has performed well the last two seasons, but that was AFTER he was given back the Factory Yamaha ride. After his lacklustre 3 years on the Suzuki, was Loris Capriossi offered a factory bike for 2011? No, he ended up on the then career killer Pramc.

Surmise this: Instead of Maverick Vinales. Alex Esparagaro was promoted to the factory Yamaha team in place of Lorenzo for 2017 if he leaves. Or Pol Espargaro was promoted over Smith. If in 2 seasons they were finishing 2nd in the championship then that decision would be justified. But how on earth, as it stands, could you justify promoting Aleix Espargaro over Vinales, or Pol Espargaro over Smith BASED ON THEIR 2015 RESULTS?
Capirossi hadn't won 7 premier class titles previously, and hadn't had a meritorious race win as recently as late 2010 while recovering from a compound fracture.

What the Ducati years showed (leaving aside what it may have implied about Casey Stoner's results on the bike) was that the attempted Yamaha-ification of the carbon fibre Ducati had resulted in a very bad bike, and that Rossi wasn't a complete riding God who could out-ride such a poor bike; the second year showed that it wasn't possible to come up with an aluminium space frame twin spar chassis bike foreign to the previous ethos at Ducati in 3 months which could be competitive with Honda and Yamaha who had been honing their craft with that technology over 40 years of gp bike racing.

I thought at the time that Rossi, politics aside, was still the best rider available for that Yamaha seat, and the guy he kept out of the seat was Pol Espargaro, whom as you point out has a subsequent record which casts extreme doubt that he would have shown much on a factory bike given he hasn't been as good as Dovi or Smith (or perhaps even Cal) on a Tech 3.

Where it may come unstuck for Yamaha is now. If Rossi does succeed in driving Lorenzo out then while I think he will still ride well I don't believe he will win a title this year or the following 2 years, and no-one available to replace Jorge including Vinales is definitely up to that task on available evidence either.
 
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I have a question for all "Rossi bashers" here:

Does Rossi enjoy any "unfair advantages" now, vis a vis other factory riders? Yes? No? Which ones precisely?

If not, think: if Rossi can be this competitive at 37 in a level playing field with Lorenzo, Marquez, Pedrosa, Dovi, Iannone, Vinales etc., how the heck can anybody insist that he needed preferential treatments to be successful when he was younger and stronger, racing against supposedly weaker rivals?

The two things can't go together.

Discuss... :)

This Rossi is a grafter, accumulator, accuser. Not the once dominant winner. More the predominant whiner. Hi Max.

In marked contrast until 2006 the younger Rossi had very, very impressive numbers. Championships and win % would have been unrivalled in modern racing.
From 2006 that winning % has dropped markedly. What changed?

Pre 2006 - SNS
Post 2006 - no SNS

That could be it.

Then factor in that Stoner and Pedro entered the class in 2006, Lorenzo 2007.

You tell me, why did the winning % drop, comparing 1999 - 2005, 2006 to present. Even Stoner has a higher win % head to head against Rossi with the majority of time on the Ducati. See the pattern, gone from outright dominant to just plain old competitive. What changed, he got old?

All in all Id probably have to call 2009 Rossi's greatest achievement in that he beat a younger rival on the same equipment, so he can match them, he simply isn't dominant. Ok throw in 2008 even though I find it dubious he still beat Stoner on the same tires. I'll call him Mr two times then.
 
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This Rossi is a grafter, accumulator, accuser. Not the once dominant winner.
...
...

If you watched the press conference, Rossi talked a lot about tires. That's because tires are the single most important component against level machines. Tires decide championships amongst the few title contending factory bikes. .

The importance of tires cannot be overestimate. Yet when we consider how titles are won and lost we gloss over it. I honestly don't understand how anybody can accept any titles on SNS as legitimate. It's tantamount to a rulebook concession of enhance drugs for an exclusive contestant.

2001-2006 MEDs. (Michelin Enhancement Drugs)

Rossi dominated this era by having designer MEDs.
 
If you watched the press conference, Rossi talked a lot about tires. That's because tires are the single most important component against level machines. Tires decide championships amongst the few title contending factory bikes. .

The importance of tires cannot be overestimate. Yet when we consider how titles are won and lost we gloss over it. I honestly don't understand how anybody can accept any titles on SNS as legitimate. It's tantamount to a rulebook concession of enhance drugs for an exclusive contestant.

2001-2006 MEDs. (Michelin Enhancement Drugs)

Rossi dominated this era by having designer MEDs.
He didn't have any SNS tyres last year and at age 36 still nearly beat multiple title winners in JL and MM who are in their prime to the title as J4rn0 says.

I think Povol as is often the case has a good perspective. Like me he doesn't admire Rossi's character but still recognises his quality as a rider, and as one of the greats if not quite as great as his early record suggested and he himself and his fans seem to believe. Trying to trash him completely is hyperbolic imo and detracts from justifiable criticism which can be made of him, including of his behaviour at the end of last season. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but having been annoyed by Rossi "boppers" attributing the 2006 and 2007 titles to bike advantages I am not going to do the same in regard to Rossi's titles.
 
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Capirossi hadn't won 7 premier class titles previously, and hadn't had a meritorious race win as recently as late 2010 while recovering from a compound fracture.

Capirossi isn't the best example I agree, but my point was Rossi was given an unfavourable advantage of getting the Yamaha seat. His 2013 season as has been said, was no better than Spies' 2011/2012 (discounting the myriad of mechanical failures he had) so why was he not even considered for the seat? Very early into 2012, around the time Stoner announced his retirement, it was pretty much a given that Rossi wouldn't be on the Ducati in 2012 (as per Carmelo's "competitive bike" statement) and it sure as hell wasn't going to be Stoners Honda, which only left Yamaha. I find it a strong coincidence that Spies bike had such a terrible year for which of course I am not blaming Rossi, but it seems that one way or another, it was decided in early 2012 that as soon as he could see out his Ducati contract, Rossi would be back at Yamaha.

You make the mistake of thinking I am a Rossi hater. I am not. As you have noted with Povol, and Arrabiata, I admire his skill on a motorcycle and would be downright foolish to dismiss that he is a damn good rider. However, some of his results are srtificial such as his 2003 title when it was all but sewn up in the first race. As for the GOAT moniker? No way on earth. The reason? Rossi refuses to accept parity with his team mates. Mike Hailwood was dead before I was even born sadly, but I've read about his career and not once have I read about him demanding a wall between his team mate, not sharing data, vetoing team mates. Plus he rode in an era when the Isle of Man TT was a championship race.

Look at Ayrton Senna, to me the greatest driver who ever lived. He only veto'd a team mate once, and that was in Lotus in 1986 and purely because he didn't feel the team could competitively run 2 cars. He even offered to drive for free for Williams in 1993 and was so incensed that Alain Prost had a Senna veto clause in his contract that he openly called him a coward in the Press conference in late 1992. He likened it to running a 100m race where Prost was wearing the best running shoes money can buy and all his competitors were wearing lead boots. He was never worried about beating his team mate. True greats are never afraid of racing on equal machinery.

Rossi requested Edwards as a team mate, Veto'd Stoner, tried to veto Lorenzo, then issued Yamaha an ultimatum to ged rid of him, then threw a jissy fit and went to Ducati. As has been said by Povol, while he may ride a motorcycle well, he is a weasel of a person hiding behind his bubbly personality and who not only doesn't condemn, but encourages the mob base of his fandom to bring the sport into disrepute and also introduces a toxic atmosphere into any team he rides for. While the media side may suffer, the sport as a whole will be improved once he leaves.

That said, I would still be the first to compliment him if he rides well, as I have done in the past.
 
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Who said anything about going the same speed. It has already been determined that in the right circumstance, they are capable of causing a crash. Riders go down all the time and are hit or almost hit by another bike.

Really not trying to be pedantic, but in the "right circumstances" an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters will eventually write a perfect copy of Romeo and Juliet. Even getting snagged on someones footpeg could potentially take a rider down. But is it likely? I mean, in what other circumstances other than riders traveling at comparable speeds would there be a likelihood of two riders coming close enough to each other for the winglets to potentially become an issue?
 
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Povol,your ideas about winglets are farfetched
Your a big man. If everythings in proportion your .... must look like a Louisville Slugger with a helmet on.
In the right circumstance your Tenessee Titan could pop out of your your trousers and poke a hole through anyone standing in front of you, or even trip a passerby
In the right circumstance anthing can happen, even those two Canadians Juice and Ambassador could get laid
Theses are all plausible scenarios but very unlikely to ever happen.
 
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