MotoGP: 2016 Round 18 - Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana (SPOILERS)

danski · Nov 15, 2016

Barbedwirebikerr said:
I remember reading same. Can't find it though.

I also remember the air intake article, think it may have been around one of the mid season tests.

Dr No · Nov 15, 2016

Iamapony said:
I am thoroughly frustrated with continuously searching without success. I hope my memory is not distorted and the statement came from some unsubstantiated source. I have not given up, yet.

I'm curious as to.how they'd make this happen. If you do remember, please post...as long as it isn't a Spalderzzz article.

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 15, 2016

Dr No said:
I'm curious as to.how they'd make this happen. If you do remember, please post...as long as it isn't a Spalderzzz article.

It was talking about the air intake shape and control of airflow through the internal structures.

Honda said they can still get a positive effect through this design. Or something like that.

AJV80 · Nov 15, 2016

Barbedwirebikerr said:
It was talking about the air intake shape and control of airflow through the internal structures.

Honda said they can still get a positive effect through this design. Or something like that.

When you zoom in and take a close look at MM's front air intake it seems to have an odd shape at the bottom (hollowed out pockets) that could catch the air and build pressure I assume. It doesn't seem to have a smooth shape that you would see on a regular ram air intake. Not sure if this is the intention of it or not but just noticed it was different to DP's smooth flowing intake duct.

povol · Nov 15, 2016

Dr No said:
I'm curious as to.how they'd make this happen. If you do remember, please post...as long as it isn't a Spalderzzz article.

Simple really, you just design the fairings with aero caracteristic that creates downforce. My street bike has fairings that great downforce to a small degree because of the extreme acceleration

AJV80 · Nov 15, 2016

povol said:
Simple really, you just design the fairings with aero caracteristic that creates downforce. My street bike has fairings that great downforce to a small degree because of the extreme acceleration

What street bike do you have?

povol · Nov 15, 2016

AJV80 said:
What street bike do you have?

ZX14R

aaronl · Nov 15, 2016

New cbr250rr has winglets

Keshav · Nov 15, 2016

povol said:
And Honda, Marquez said the single biggest improvement on the 2016 RCV was when they went to the huge winglets

Been wondering when someone would bring that up. I myself have pondered how much Ducati would suffer without the benefit of the wings, but Honda and Yamaha have been taking advantage of the technology as well. Does anyone doubt that taking away the wings will at least to some degree skew Michelin's data for next year's rubber?

AJV80 · Nov 15, 2016

Keshav said:
Been wondering when someone would bring that up. I myself have pondered how much Ducati would suffer without the benefit of the wings, but Honda and Yamaha have been taking advantage of the technology as well. Does anyone doubt that taking away the wings will at least to some degree skew Michelin's data for next year's rubber?

Repost:

We all knew it was only going to be a matter of time. Winglets desinged for motorcycles, made in Taiwan and attached with double sided tape. Not so good at lowering your lap times, but a great way to lower any respect others may have for you.

May as well carry a sign that says "please piss on my face".

[New Product] The New KOSO MotoGP Style ?Wing Kit?! Will It Squelch Wheelies? | Motorcycle News | Webike Japan

Iowegian · Nov 15, 2016

Nice, I should get a set for my TW200.

The Burning Barber · Nov 15, 2016

AJV80 said:
Repost:

We all knew it was only going to be a matter of time. Winglets desinged for motorcycles, made in Taiwan and attached with double sided tape. Not so good at lowering your lap times, but a great way to lower any respect others may have for you.

May as well carry a sign that says "please piss on my face".

[New Product] The New KOSO MotoGP Style ?Wing Kit?! Will It Squelch Wheelies? | Motorcycle News | Webike Japan

They're probably selling like hot cakes over in Malaysia with all this high end street racing going on

https://youtu.be/b8hDqujuXLw

Dr No · Nov 15, 2016

povol said:
Simple really, you just design the fairings with aero caracteristic that creates downforce. My street bike has fairings that great downforce to a small degree because of the extreme acceleration

Downforce isn't created through acceleration, it is by relative windspeed.
Your bike at 40kph WOT isn't creating anything. Conversely, your bike (if it indeed does create any diwnforce) at 200 on a neutral throttle, will be.

An airbox with so-called "ram" capabilities will slow down the airflow thus increasing the pressure. Not the same function as a wing(let), that increases the speed of the airflow over one side, providing a pressure differential and hence, force.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I am saying I lack the imagination to conceive how it could.

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 16, 2016

Dr No said:
Downforce isn't created through acceleration, it is by relative windspeed.
Your bike at 40kph WOT isn't creating anything. Conversely, your bike (if it indeed does create any diwnforce) at 200 on a neutral throttle, will be.

An airbox with so-called "ram" capabilities will slow down the airflow thus increasing the pressure. Not the same function as a wing(let), that increases the speed of the airflow over one side, providing a pressure differential and hence, force.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I am saying I lack the imagination to conceive how it could.

I'm struggling to understand this too. Aerodynamically, both downforce and conversely lift, are a function of a pressure differential. The idea that in the absence of this, downforce can be engineered through the intake in terms of the internal structure and bodywork ducting is fascinating though.

AJV80 said:
Repost:

We all knew it was only going to be a matter of time. Winglets desinged for motorcycles, made in Taiwan and attached with double sided tape. Not so good at lowering your lap times, but a great way to lower any respect others may have for you.

May as well carry a sign that says "please piss on my face".

[New Product] The New KOSO MotoGP Style ?Wing Kit?! Will It Squelch Wheelies? | Motorcycle News | Webike Japan

There you go Phil - (if you're reading this). Did I not predict this a year ago? You can picture the 'plastics' now - hurtling over the Cat and Fiddle pretending to be Iannone at Lukey Heights (seagulls aside). Double sided tape ffs!!!

Inevitable really.

Dr No · Nov 16, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
I'm struggling to understand this too. Aerodynamically, both downforce and conversely lift, are a function of a pressure differential. The idea that in the absence of this, downforce can be engineered through the intake in terms of the internal structure and bodywork ducting is fascinating though.

If it is in an internal structure, any forces generated by a pressure change will act on that internal structure.
The only thing I can think of is some sort of duct utilising the merideth effect but pointed upwards. Good luck packaging that.

My take on wings is that they are there to lower the CoP, reducing the aero moment trying to make the bike rotate backwards (wheelie/taking weight the front), so you can keep it pinned harder for longer (oo err!) down straights.
This does feed into the acceleration thing, as you could probably be more aggressive with power delivery, but it does jackshit for low speed acceleration.
Then you have to make sure it doesn't mess up other characteristics like tip in as the outer wing will see less flow blah blah.
Usual race .... -> compromises and hoping the +ive outweigh the -ive

AJV80 · Nov 16, 2016

Dr No said:
If it is in an internal structure, any forces generated by a pressure change will act on that internal structure.
The only thing I can think of is some sort of duct utilising the merideth effect but pointed upwards. Good luck packaging that.

My take on wings is that they are there to lower the CoP, reducing the aero moment trying to make the bike rotate backwards (wheelie/taking weight the front), so you can keep it pinned harder for longer (oo err!) down straights.
This does feed into the acceleration thing, as you could probably be more aggressive with power delivery, but it does jackshit for low speed acceleration.
Then you have to make sure it doesn't mess up other characteristics like tip in as the outer wing will see less flow blah blah.
Usual race .... -> compromises and hoping the +ive outweigh the -ive

I have no idea how they can do it and make it effective. An aerofoil suspended and sitting under the intake wouldnt work because the airflow would be disrupted too much. Apparently the teams couldn't agree unanimousley on rules for the winglets so they got scrapped. Another rule has then come in to freeze the design of the front cowl and mudguard to only allow one change during the season, so it seems they are expecting teams to try and build aero designs into the bodywork ... interesting to see how they could package something like that let alone have it as effective as external wings.

#22 · Nov 16, 2016

povol said:
Simple really, you just design the fairings with aero caracteristic that creates downforce. My street bike has fairings that great downforce to a small degree because of the extreme acceleration

As Dr No already said, Downforce has nothing to do with acceleration.

Arrabbiata1 said:
I'm struggling to understand this too. Aerodynamically, both downforce and conversely lift, are a function of a pressure differential. The idea that in the absence of this, downforce can be engineered through the intake in terms of the internal structure and bodywork ducting is fascinating though.

I imagine it is similar to the "F Duct' used in F1 about 5 years ago where they used a duct of air to stall the rear wing. They could possibly use an inverse pressure differential to create a small amount of downforce, however this may affect the properties for what the original intake was designed.

There you go Phil - (if you're reading this). Did I not predict this a year ago? You can picture the 'plastics' now - hurtling over the Cat and Fiddle pretending to be Iannone at Lukey Heights (seagulls aside). Double sided tape ffs!!!

Inevitable really.

Jesus christ.

Dr No said:
If it is in an internal structure, any forces generated by a pressure change will act on that internal structure.
The only thing I can think of is some sort of duct utilising the merideth effect but pointed upwards. Good luck packaging that.

My take on wings is that they are there to lower the CoP, reducing the aero moment trying to make the bike rotate backwards (wheelie/taking weight the front), so you can keep it pinned harder for longer (oo err!) down straights.
This does feed into the acceleration thing, as you could probably be more aggressive with power delivery, but it does jackshit for low speed acceleration.
Then you have to make sure it doesn't mess up other characteristics like tip in as the outer wing will see less flow blah blah.
Usual race .... -> compromises and hoping the +ive outweigh the -ive

Great post, beat me to it.

Val Rossi · Nov 16, 2016

budoist said:
There's a sad song a singing from the timing clock on the wall, and the bell in the steeple too. And down in the garage an absurd little bird, is popping out to say, "Cuckoo."

budoist · Nov 17, 2016

Iamapony said:
I am thoroughly frustrated with continuously searching without success. I hope my memory is not distorted and the statement came from some unsubstantiated source. I have not given up, yet.

You're not losing it. If I remember where I first saw it, it was on a set of pictures on MotoMatters comparing the intake Dani's bike to Marc's and the caption mentioned that the difference in shape was to induce downforce.

Iamapony · Nov 21, 2016

budoist said:
You're not losing it. If I remember where I first saw it, it was on a set of pictures on MotoMatters comparing the intake Dani's bike to Marc's and the caption mentioned that the difference in shape was to induce downforce.

Thank you.

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