Buriram Test

#22 said:

I never said that. However you used a lot of assumptions in your post, thus that Rossi would have been 'even closer' to Vinales had he not had the accident.

Click to expand...

It's an assumption, I agree - but it's a reasonable assumption, I think. Whether it'd be 5 points or 25 points, we'll never know, but I think it goes without saying that his season would've been better in terms of point totals without the enduro accident.

#22 said:

Well firstly, we will never know. Saying Rossi was guaranteed a result at Misano because he always goes well there is like saying Lorenzo was going to win at Qatar 2017 because he and the Duc always go well there.

Click to expand...

I didn't say he was guaranteed a result. I'm just saying that Misano is his best track, and he likely would've gone well there.

#22 said:

Half of GP bike racing is about staying healthy. Rossi has a great record of rarely injuring himself in crashes. However it is not right to say Lorenzo was undeserved of the 2010 championship simply because he kept himself healthy when others didn't. The same can be said in 2011 when Stoner kept himself healthy while Lorenzo injured himself out of contention. Again in 2013: Lorenzo arguably lost the title at Assen/Germany when he broke the same collarbone a week in succession. Marquez didn't.

Click to expand...

Agreed that staying healthy is a huge part of the battle. I'll try to rephrase so that I'm a bit clearer (because I think my points haven't been so easy to follow in previous posts): Do you agree that there is a difference between hurting yourself by crashing in a race/qualifying/free practice, and another thing getting hurt away from the track(e.g. pulling a muscle on the benchpress, getting hurt on a stupid jump at motocross, being in a car accident, etc.)?

My view is that the latter may have the same consequence as the former (i.e. that you have to miss races or may perform worse in races), but riders don't look at the former in the same way in assessing their relative merits against other riders.

This is because the former is a direct comparison between you and your competitors under identical circumstances in your ability to ride a MotoGP machine. That is what riders think about in assessing their relative merits.

Hopefully that makes sense.

#22 said:

I wonder then, why you used it as a statement for declaring Rossi would have been even closer to Vinales, if neither looked at it.

Click to expand...

Sorry if I was unclear: my point was that neither would've looked at the absence in support of the proposition that MV was a better rider.

AntG said:

I don't know, the consensus at the moment seems to be that BMW build the best road going sports bikes.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but I still buy Honda because I feel like the thing is bulletproof because the engineers who built it are the best (a view heavily coloured by watching grand prix...), and that I can crash the thing into pieces and get parts for next to nothing - even though I know that the BMW likely performs better.

RCV600RR said:

Agreed that staying healthy is a huge part of the battle. I'll try to rephrase so that I'm a bit clearer (because I think my points haven't been so easy to follow in previous posts): Do you agree that there is a difference between hurting yourself by crashing in a race/qualifying/free practice, and another thing getting hurt away from the track(e.g. pulling a muscle on the benchpress, getting hurt on a stupid jump at motocross, being in a car accident, etc.)?

My view is that the latter may have the same consequence as the former (i.e. that you have to miss races or may perform worse in races), but riders don't look at the former in the same way in assessing their relative merits against other riders.

Click to expand...

Yes I agree with that. I will say though that 4 riders/drivers I recall coming back from injury and being extremely quick:

1. Michael Schumacher Sepang 1999. Got pole by 1 second upon his return from a broken leg.
2. Stoner 2009
3. Rossi Aragon 2017
4. Miller Australia 2017.

So there is some argument that Rossi was stronger in Aragon than he might have been.

Good post.

Good points. Good discussion.

I'm going crazy waiting for the Qatar test. MV is probably a decent bet at his current odds, if Yamaha fix the M1's issues.

RCV600RR said:

Good points. Good discussion.

I'm going crazy waiting for the Qatar test. MV is probably a decent bet at his current odds, if Yamaha fix the M1's issues.

Click to expand...

But the M1s issue is ..... rossi.

And he's still there.



If Lorenzo was still there, the Yamaha would still be the best bike on the grid.

#22 said:

Yes I agree with that. I will say though that 4 riders/drivers I recall coming back from injury and being extremely quick:

1. Michael Schumacher Sepang 1999. Got pole by 1 second upon his return from a broken leg.
2. Stoner 2009
3. Rossi Aragon 2017
4. Miller Australia 2017.

So there is some argument that Rossi was stronger in Aragon than he might have been.

Good post.

Click to expand...

Sepang 1999 was a joke.

Illegal barge boards on both Ferrari's that magically cleared scrutineering.

BarryMachine said:

But the M1s issue is ..... rossi.

And he's still there.



If Lorenzo was still there, the Yamaha would still be the best bike on the grid.

Click to expand...

The other issue is what I stated around the time of the Vinales signing; he was nowhere near as good as people believed. He can't ride around problems or tires.

RCV600RR said:

Good points. Good discussion.

I'm going crazy waiting for the Qatar test. MV is probably a decent bet at his current odds, if Yamaha fix the M1's issues.

Click to expand...

Enjoying this very much. Remember when certain elements said this forum was dying due to the absence of those who continually promoted drama?

JPSLotus said:

Sepang 1999 was a joke.

Illegal barge boards on both Ferrari's that magically cleared scrutineering.

Click to expand...

Agreed. However I don't think that was the sole contributor to Schumacher's pole time, as much as I dislike the man.

JPSLotus said:

The other issue is what I stated around the time of the Vinales signing; he was nowhere near as good as people believed. He can't ride around problems or tires.

Click to expand...

Maybe like Ducati in 2011/12 and Stoner, Yamaha are now realising Lorenzo brought more to the table than they thought.

Lorenzo Stoner VR or whoever. They can only give feedbacks, developing a bike is in other hands and it seems that Honda and Ducati do have the smarter guys and girl there.
While Honda and Ducati moved forward from year to year and made radical moves, Yamaha was stagnating and every year they just did a little evolution on the M1 while the other manufactories delivered revolutions. Yamaha is about to fall in the midfield like Ducati in 2010 and the next years, but I don't think it is the fault of VR. It's a mixture of riders and the smart brains at the development. Good night M1, now you are a "boring" bike.

mantamani46 said:

Lorenzo Stoner VR or whoever. They can only give feedbacks, developing a bike is in other hands and it seems that Honda and Ducati do have the smarter guys and girl there.

Click to expand...

Of course, if a team doesn't listen to a riders feedback, then there is little they can do. I believe Stoner was the victim of his own success at Ducati, for he was forever telling them the bike/s had turning issues but Stoners ability to ride around it and load the front tyre like no other rider hid that in the data, and the fact he was winning led Ducati into a false sense of security.

That said, a succesful race team is not just about hiring a Rossi/Lorenzo/Stoner/Marquez etc. As Yamaha is showing now, they were slow off the line to nab a Magnetti Marelli engineer during the switch to the spec ECU. You snooze you lose.

While Honda and Ducati moved forward from year to year and made radical moves, Yamaha was stagnating and every year they just did a little evolution on the M1 while the other manufactories delivered revolutions. Yamaha is about to fall in the midfield like Ducati in 2010 and the next years, but I don't think it is the fault of VR. It's a mixture of riders and the smart brains at the development. Good night M1, now you are a "boring" bike.

Click to expand...

Seems like we agree on this. I also think a major problem at the moment is Yamaha have two riders with different style (Vinales is complaining about corner entry, Rossi corner exit) and in the case of the former, keeps changing chassis in an effort to find a quick fix. I think they (as in the whole team) are lost at the moment and don't have good direction, which is hurting them.

Now they are describing chassis akin to Ducati in 2011/12 with the GP11.1, .2 etc and mixing/macthing parts. I don't see a quick fix for them sadly.

The question is if Zarco DOES put up a serious championship challenge, do Yamaha help him out given that Tech3 are saying sayonara to them at the end of the year?

#22 said:

The question is if Zarco DOES put up a serious championship challenge, do Yamaha help him out given that Tech3 are saying sayonara to them at the end of the year?

Click to expand...

In fact, the struggle of the factory Yamaha team could be Zarco`s luck, to be the only chance for Yamaha to save face.

Zarco is lucky that he can ride the fully developed 2016 M1, which was a good bike indeed. I don't think that Zarvi is that much better than the the factory riders, but he definitely has the better package. The thing is, the factory team could not spend the whole season with an 3 year old bike, they have too much pride to lose. I didn't see a quick fix either, it seems that the roles had changed. Now Yamaha is the manufacture who is a little bit arrogant and Honda more familiar and more focused and open minded for new things and solutions. In the early 2000's it was the opposite. Yamaha lost his spirit. No one wants the M1, even their 20 year independent team Tech3 dont give a .... about the 2017 bike. They need new spirit like Ducati at the end if 2012. Funny thing, it seems VR is running out of luck with the performance of the bikes. In the early 2000's he managed always to sit on the top bike (the M1 was already a good one in 2004) but then? Ducati needed to see that even VR couldn't win with that crap 2011 and 2012 bike and now it's a head to head with the RCV. So he's struggling since 2011 on the bikes. That's just bad bad luck. When the engineers don't have the skills to built a fast and good bike or just don't listen to you, you can give feedback as good as you want cause in this case its senseless.

Only two inline 4s left in the championship and neither looks like they will set the world on fire anytime soon.

I wonder if Yamaha is at least contemplating a V4 for the next big rule change (is it 2022?)

mantamani46 said:

Zarco is lucky that he can ride the fully developed 2016 M1, which was a good bike indeed. I don't think that Zarvi is that much better than the the factory riders, but he definitely has the better package. The thing is, the factory team could not spend the whole season with an 3 year old bike, they have too much pride to lose.

Click to expand...

Disagree. Firstly, it is in essence a 2015 bike, as the true 2016 bike that had the fuel tank towards the rear and the filler behind the seat was never raced. The "2016" bike may be fully developed, but it's development stopped over a year ago. It's not Zarco's fault that the Yamaha factory team have gone the wrong way with development and there is nothing wrong with them using an older bike. IIRC Marquez was up until recently still using an iteration of his 2014 chassis

I didn't see a quick fix either

Click to expand...

Me neither.

mantamani46 said:

Zarco is lucky that he can ride the fully developed 2016 M1, which was a good bike indeed. I don't think that Zarvi is that much better than the the factory riders, but he definitely has the better package. The thing is, the factory team could not spend the whole season with an 3 year old bike, they have too much pride to lose. I didn't see a quick fix either, it seems that the roles had changed. Now Yamaha is the manufacture who is a little bit arrogant and Honda more familiar and more focused and open minded for new things and solutions. In the early 2000's it was the opposite. Yamaha lost his spirit. No one wants the M1, even their 20 year independent team Tech3 dont give a .... about the 2017 bike. They need new spirit like Ducati at the end if 2012. Funny thing, it seems VR is running out of luck with the performance of the bikes. In the early 2000's he managed always to sit on the top bike (the M1 was already a good one in 2004) but then? Ducati needed to see that even VR couldn't win with that crap 2011 and 2012 bike and now it's a head to head with the RCV. So he's struggling since 2011 on the bikes. That's just bad bad luck. When the engineers don't have the skills to built a fast and good bike or just don't listen to you, you can give feedback as good as you want cause in this case its senseless.

Click to expand...

Who do Yamaha have now?. Furusawa is gone now, and most of the "spirit" you described seemed to coincide with him being at Yamaha. Gigi might actually be a genius, and HRC's engineering culture is legendary, perhaps for both good and ill, as is their preparedness to expend resources. On the pit crew side Burgess is also gone as well, understandably even for me since he appeared to have lost faith in Rossi.

It is still problematic to be relying on a 39 year old guy, however great he once was and even if he is still good, against the likes of a 25 year old MM, and the younger teammate being both not really proven and having a different riding style to Rossi compounds the problem.

Keshav said:

Enjoying this very much. Remember when certain elements said this forum was dying due to the absence of those who continually promoted drama?

Click to expand...

Yep.

I think having a bit of humility (i.e. being able to honestly concede points) and respecting the other bloke goes a long way.

AntG said:

I don't know, the consensus at the moment seems to be that BMW build the best road going sports bikes.

Click to expand...

I sell BMWs Kawasaki’s and Yamaha and I will tell you right now that BMW bikes have more issues than Jap bikes and a lot of them are catastrophic . The S1000RR and Winter Test Ninja RR are close in Hp with the beemer beating it out in electronic rider aids . The slowest of that group of 3 is the Yamaha but the M model is probably the easiest to turn fast times on because it’s electronic rider aids. From first hand knowledge the Kaw and the Yamaha are more reliable.

michaelm said:

Who do Yamaha have now?. Furusawa is gone now, and most of the "spirit" you described seemed to coincide with him being at Yamaha. Gigi might actually be a genius, and HRC's engineering culture is legendary, perhaps for both good and ill, as is their preparedness to expend resources. On the pit crew side Burgess is also gone as well, understandably even for me since he appeared to have lost faith in Rossi.

It is still problematic to be relying on a 39 year old guy, however great he once was and even if he is still good, against the likes of a 25 year old MM, and the younger teammate being both not really proven and having a different riding style to Rossi compounds the problem.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure it was Rossi who lost faith in Burgess and asked him to leave.

synn said:

Pretty sure it was Rossi who lost faith in Burgess and asked him to leave.

Click to expand...

In 2013 JB said Rossi might win some races but he wouldn't win another championship.