Buriram Test

synn said:

It’s kinda pathetic how you need to chip in with a Rossi line as some sort of “Gotcha”.
If Rossi gets beaten by Vinales... he gets beaten by Vinales. They are teammates, not aiming for the same seat like Miller and J. Lo potentially.

Try to not take things so personally. These are people paid to race. Not your family.

As for Lorenzo, switching between last years and this years bikes and slumping in the back is not “not aiming for a fast time”, it’s the stars not aligning in that perfect order for Sir Jorge of Lorenzoland to be fast in that narrow window he is capable of performing in.

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Not really, coming from the person who defends Rossi to the death and bashes Lorenzo whenever he can, but I'm the one who takes it personally. This is a discussion forum, and everytime someone hits you with a rebuttal, you simply label them 'a hater, pathetic or taking things personally', you're like an open book.

You keep intimating that if Miller gives Lorenzo a hard time this year he's out. While blissfully ignoring (Edit, you apprach the subject in a later post) the exact same scenario playing out with Rossi and Zarco at Yamaha. That isn't any attempt at a 'Gotcha", simply highlighting the basic fact that if Lorenzo is under threat from a satellite rider of the same brand, then Rossi is most certainly too. Given that Zarco has had arguably the most impressive rookie season from a satellite rider since Casey Stoner in 2006, and as it stand looks comfortably faster than the factory riders.

RCV600RR said:

MV beat Rossi by 22 points last year, and Rossi missed a race (Misano, probably his best track) due to a leg break. They were closely matched, actually.

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He broke his leg of his own accord, and not even in a race. So it absolutely cannot be used as an excuse. He missed one race where, given the conditions, it is unlikely he'd have scored significant points anyway.

synn said:

Petrucci still has an open deal until June or so. Or Miller, if he pulls a Zarco.

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Given that Ducati have said they want both factory riders signed by then, along with the fact they have said they want to retain Lorenzo & Dovi AND they have told Petrucci he better look for another factory, I'm not quite sure what other evidence you need to contradict your pipedream of Lorenzo getting replaced by Ducati.

While I believe Miler to be a talent, you'll excuse my getting excited about a rider who has won a handful of Moto3 races and 1 mixed wet/dry (albeit thoroughly deserved) MotoGP race. Another thing to consider is that Redding was fast on the Pramac Ducati in his first winter tests after leaving VDS Honda, finishing 3rd in the Jerez tests and tweeting all day long about how he loved the Ducati. Turned out when it came to show time, he was rather underwhelming. I'm not saying Miller will be the same, but how many preseason champions testing champions have we seen over the years.

Speaking of Zarco, what WOULD be interesting for Yamaha is if he starts beating Rossi and Vinales. Which is a real possibility if Movistar Yamaha doesn’t sort out the electronics in time. The only options for them at that point is either offer him a factory seat if Rossi retires or offer Tech3 one factory bike like Honda and Ducati are doing (Which they should have done already, I strongly feel that the reason Honda and Ducati have improved so much is the extra amount of data and feedback they are getting from a third rider on a factory bike).

If I were Lin Jarvis, I would move heaven and earth to keep Zarco on.

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I note the change in your tone there. With Yamaha, they should "Offer a factory seat to Zarco if Rossi retires" but with Ducati, they should fire Lorenzo and replace him with Miller, or Petrucci.

If the scenario above does play out, Vinales is young and has time on his hands for Yamaha to sort the issues. Rossi doesn't, so if Yamaha doesn't take the bull by the horns and sign Zarco, making Rossi a test rider/brand ambassador, then they are losing out on a huge opportunity. Of course they won't do that because it has been made clear by Yamaha that there is an open seat on the factory team for Rossi as long as he wants it, no matter what his performances are like.

RCV600RR said:

Miller has been really impressive so far on the Duke. I'm very curious to see how he goes. He was awesome in Moto3, and finally started showing his ability near the end of his tenure on the Honda last year.

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True, but as I said above, so was Redding when he first tested it. I, like you, and curious to see if he can take this form into the season.

yamfan said:

According to the “unbiased” lot on krops forum, Lorenzo is getting replaced, Maverick is totally lost.
Rossi however is absolutely fine, doesn’t need to attempt a fast time as he only needs race simulations because the bike suits him.
He’s not slow, he’s foxing to lull the others into false security, before he comes out flying and blows everyone away as he takes his deserved holy grail title [emoji3]

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I don't even know why you go there anymore, anyone who speaks out against the Rossi cult is blocked or banned.

Jesus tap dancing Christ. You didn’t have to type a ....... wall of text. A simple “waaaaaaaahhhhh” would have sufficed.

No one brought Rossi up until you did, I personally have been doing my best to be neutral in this thread and is actually addressing the possibility of Zarco outperforming Rossi and Vinales but you lots of course read what you want to read.

I get it that you were probably dropped on your head as a baby, but you don’t need to constantly remind us of the same.

#22 said:

He broke his leg of his own accord, and not even in a race. So it absolutely cannot be used as an excuse. He missed one race where, given the conditions, it is unlikely he'd have scored significant points anyway.

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The fact that he hurt his leg in an enduro session with his younger lads, rather than a race, bolsters the argument that he was closely matched during the MotoGP championship with his teammate. No-one reasonably can measure the on-track performance of two competitors based on freak training accidents.

Even after missing a race, and even after riding affected with a leg break, VR finished within 22 points of MV. That's not getting "solidly" beaten.

Getting "solidly" beaten is what MM did to DP, or what AD did to JL in 2017.

synn said:

Jesus tap dancing Christ. You didn’t have to type a ....... wall of text. A simple “waaaaaaaahhhhh” would have sufficed.

No one brought Rossi up until you did, I personally have been doing my best to be neutral in this thread and is actually addressing the possibility of Zarco outperforming Rossi and Vinales but you lots of course read what you want to read.

I get it that you were probably dropped on your head as a baby, but you don’t need to constantly remind us of the same.

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FWIW I think you have made a valuable contribution to the discussion on the thread.

As I said though, no one had required you to like Lorenzo or refrain from potshots at him, and no-one had complained about you doing so until you complained about someone's attitude to Rossi (again) which I believe is what irritated 22.

Here’s what i think about Lorenzo.
Ducati paid big bucks to sign him for one reason only. To win a world championship.

I’d be surprised if he beats his teammate this year.

Lorenzo wanted Rossi money and Rossi fame. But he is not Rossi. He is not a likable face you can put on posters and sell a 100 million motorcycles in south east Asia. He is not Marquez either, able to ride a broomstick to a world championship. So it’s “.... or get off the pot “ time for him this year.

Calling it as I see it. Couldn’t care less if I made #22, 23, 24 or whoever cry.

synn said:

Here’s what i think about Lorenzo.
Ducati paid big bucks to sign him for one reason only. To win a world championship.

I’d be surprised if he beats his teammate this year.

Lorenzo wanted Rossi money and Rossi fame. But he is not Rossi. He is not a likable face you can put on posters and sell a 100 million motorcycles in south east Asia. He is not Marquez either, able to ride a broomstick to a world championship. So it’s “.... or get off the pot “ time for him this year.

Calling it as I see it. Couldn’t care less if I made #22, 23, 24 or whoever cry.

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I don't necessarily disagree, and Lorenzo is not all that popular on here these days even with me after the end of last season, and I have been a major fan. Most also saw the Ducati move as a bad one for him from the get go, when he was more popuiar with the general forum membership, given his bike and tyre requirements seeming to be fairly particular.

Most things apply to disparaging him that you complain of in regard to Rossi being disparaged however, he has won 5 titles, 60 (65 actually) races or whatever, even moving to Ducati looks like being an error in judgement for both of them, etc, etc. Rossi having a large fan base and being treated differently because of it is exactly that with which some of we grizzled fans on here take issue.

RCV600RR said:

I'm not sure about that. If you were Ducati, who would you replace JL with?

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If I were Ducati I would do exactly what Ducati is rumored to be doing: trying to work on a B-plan to put into effect in case JL does not perform this year. And Miller is an interesting option. Sure he's still got everything to prove, but I reckon he's got talent.

michaelm said:

I don't necessarily disagree, and Lorenzo is not all that popular on here these days even with me after the end of last season, and I have been a major fan. Most also saw the Ducati move as a bad one for him from the get go, when he was more popuiar with the general forum membership, given his bike and tyre requirements seeming to be fairly particular.

Most things apply to disparaging him that you complain of in regard to Rossi being disparaged however, he has won 5 titles, 60 (65 actually) races or whatever, even moving to Ducati looks like being an error in judgement for both of them, etc, etc. Rossi having a large fan base and being treated differently because of it is exactly that with which some of we grizzled fans on here take issue.

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The thing is, as much as the purists want rider selection to only be about who can ride the fastest, it isn't. Because neither DORNA nor the teams are in this for charity. End of the day, it's about who can win them championships AND make them money. If they can't win them championships, then they better make them money. This is why riders like Yonny Hernandez (Only rider from an entire continent) or Xavier Simeon or even Hafiz Syahirin make it to the paddock.

Everyone and their grandma knows that the relationship between Rossi and Yamaha now is more about financial sense than the championship. He is not the best rider in the paddock anymore, but he can still mix it up at the top, get a few podiums and even a few wins. Their championship hopes are resting on Vinales (That they have colossally cocked up the development is another story). So they are happy for Rossi to do his thing AND make them a lot of money in the process. This is why (Unfortunately for some, depending on their perspective) Rossi and Yamaha have their fates intertwined for the rest of his racing career and afterwards as well.

Personally, I would have liked to see him finish off his career at KTM or Aprilia, helping shape their MotoGP projects with his wealth of experience, but that didn't and will not happen.

So it's really not about the size of his Fanclub, but rather about financial sense. Yamaha will gladly keep paying him $10 million per year for as long as he is competitive and can make them ten times that. That's more than what you can make with a moderate risk stock investment! And Rossi will continue racing as long as he feels he is competitive enough to be in the top third of the grid, at least. Is that unfair to Zarco? It sure is, which is why I really hope they give Tech 3 a factory spec bike next year and make him stay. From all accounts, Zarco loves it in Tech 3, gets along quite well with Guy Coulon and doesn't really care if he is in a factory team, the only piece missing is a factory spec bike.

What Lorenzo DOESN'T have going for him is the money making factor. From all accounts, he is not a well liked person, in the paddock or outside. He does not have the charisma to be the face of Ducati's advertising campaigns. My personal opinion of Stoner aside, Ducati will sell more bikes, T shirts and keychains slapping his face on their ads than Lorenzo's. And that is why Lorenzo's situation IS different from Rossi's. He HAS to perform or he's done.

When Ducati signed him and gave him a humungous paycheck, it was their hail Mary pass. They thought that he was the only thing that could get them a world championship and that Dovi will play the role of a taller Dani Pedrosa. They did not expect Dovi to step up like he did.

In 2018, the situation is very different. Ducati has a potential world champion in Dovi. They would be happy to have two potential world champions in the team, but they don't need a $10 million per year pedrosa (Which is what Lorenzo will be, if he doesn't perform).

If that happens, I can guarantee that Ducati Corse will be thinking hard about either Petrucci (Who can play the role of the supporting rider who gets a few podiums to perfection for a lot less money) or Miller (Young rider who you can build the future of the team around on).


Again, just calling it as I see it. There's no personal bias in here.

I and I suspect most others understand all that, but don’t have to like it, just as you don’t have to like Stoner, Lorenzo or whomever.

For most of the last decade, like another of your bête noirs in Povol my issue was with an element of his fan base, not Rossi himself. The events of late season 2015 resulted in massively unfair treatment of 2 other great riders imo, pretty much orchestrated by Rossi again imo, and led me to re-evaluate Rossi’s character and assign him partial responsibility for the persecution of another somewhat recent excellent rider in Stoner, of whom I was obviously a fan.

When I thought the situation was what you imply it is now when he first returned to Yamaha, ie he was happy just to be competitive again doing what he loved riding in gp bike racing I actually admired him for that. I assess his machinations in recent years as greater than they ever were in his pomp, however, and I think the likes of MM, Vinales and Zarco should be able to prosecute their careers independent of same. I am perhaps questioning on the evidence of Valencia 2017 whether Jorge along with the other riders I have mentioned deserves as much sympathy as I formerly afforded him.

synn said:

Jesus tap dancing Christ. You didn’t have to type a ....... wall of text. A simple “waaaaaaaahhhhh” would have sufficed.

No one brought Rossi up until you did, I personally have been doing my best to be neutral in this thread and is actually addressing the possibility of Zarco outperforming Rossi and Vinales but you lots of course read what you want to read.

I get it that you were probably dropped on your head as a baby, but you don’t need to constantly remind us of the same.

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And regaular as clockwork, when you have no rebuttal you resort to a lame attempt at personal insults. Who's pathetic now?

You didn't upset me at all, only highlight that despite your assertions to the contrary, you are, like all of us, biased in one way or another.

You are now on my ignore list.

RCV600RR said:

The fact that he hurt his leg in an enduro session with his younger lads, rather than a race, bolsters the argument that he was closely matched during the MotoGP championship with his teammate. No-one reasonably can measure the on-track performance of two competitors based on freak training accidents.

Even after missing a race, and even after riding affected with a leg break, VR finished within 22 points of MV. That's not getting "solidly" beaten.

Getting "solidly" beaten is what MM did to DP, or what AD did to JL in 2017.

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I agree, 04 and 93 solidly beat their team mates in 2017, compared to 25 & 46. I totally disagree though that breaking his leg in a training accident somehow supports his argument that he was closely matched.

synn said:

I’d be surprised if he beats his teammate this year.

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Don't be, Dovi had a good year last yr, but has done virtually nothing in his previous 8 years, including 3 years on a factory Honda, the final year of which his new team mate came in and won a championship. In that same time, his current team mate has won 3 titles.

Dovi had a breakthrough season in 2017 for sure, but people are now talking like he is the second coming, where this time last yr most people expected him to win a race or two only.

synn said:

There's no personal bias in here.

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You have bias, stop trying to act like you are impartial.

Don't be such a ...., mate. It's unbecoming.

synn said:

Here’s what i think about Lorenzo.
Ducati paid big bucks to sign him for one reason only. To win a world championship.

I’d be surprised if he beats his teammate this year.

Lorenzo wanted Rossi money and Rossi fame. But he is not Rossi. He is not a likable face you can put on posters and sell a 100 million motorcycles in south east Asia. He is not Marquez either, able to ride a broomstick to a world championship. So it’s “.... or get off the pot “ time for him this year.

Calling it as I see it. Couldn’t care less if I made #22, 23, 24 or whoever cry.

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Agree that they signed him to win the title - on that salary.

However, if he takes a huge pay cut, I'd be surprised if their expectations weren't correspondingly relaxed.

Does racing have that much of a bearing on bike sales? For years the Fireblade was the best selling 1000cc sports bike but it wasn't winning much.

#22 said:

I agree, 04 and 93 solidly beat their team mates in 2017, compared to 25 & 46. I totally disagree though that breaking his leg in a training accident somehow supports his argument that he was closely matched.

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The training accident was ultimately a freak incident - just like Wayne Van Niekerk hurting himself playing a rugby match. It's an extraneous supervening event. They'd look at points totals, then wins, then poles. MV wouldn't go to bed every night thinking he's superior to VR because VR crashed his enduro bike.

MV or VR wouldn't look at that missed race in comparing which rider is better than the other.

It's pretty fair to assume that VR would've scored reasonable points at his strongest track (he even finished second at Misano on the Duke) and the 22 point deficit would've been even less, and he would've performed better at Aragon.

AntG said:

Does racing have that much of a bearing on bike sales? For years the Fireblade was the best selling 1000cc sports bike but it wasn't winning much.

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Maybe it was reaping the rewards of having dominated GP racing for so many years. For me at least, that's true. I buy a Honda because I think their bikes are engineered by the very best, and my opinion is largely based on watching their GP efforts over decades.

I don't know, the consensus at the moment seems to be that BMW build the best road going sports bikes.

RCV600RR said:

The training accident was ultimately a freak incident - just like Wayne Van Niekerk hurting himself playing a rugby match. It's an extraneous supervening event. They'd look at points totals, then wins, then poles. MV wouldn't go to bed every night thinking he's superior to VR because VR crashed his enduro bike.

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I never said that. However you used a lot of assumptions in your post, thus that Rossi would have been 'even closer' to Vinales had he not had the accident.

It's pretty fair to assume that VR would've scored reasonable points at his strongest track (he even finished second at Misano on the Duke) and the 22 point deficit would've been even less, and he would've performed better at Aragon.

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Well firstly, we will never know. Saying Rossi was guaranteed a result at Misano because he always goes well there is like saying Lorenzo was going to win at Qatar 2017 because he and the Duc always go well there. But we know in motorsport that 2+2 rarely equals 4. Rossi didn't do well at Misano 2015 and while he finished 2nd in 2012 it was just ahead of 2 satellite riders. Both the works Honda's were out (Stoner injured, Pedrosa taken out) and Spies was well into his downward decline. I'm taking nothing away from Rossi, but just like it wasn't his fault that Stoner was out, or Pedrosa got taken out, it is not Vinales fault that Rossi injured himself.

Half of GP bike racing is about staying healthy. Rossi has a great record of rarely injuring himself in crashes. However it is not right to say Lorenzo was undeserved of the 2010 championship simply because he kept himself healthy when others didn't. The same can be said in 2011 when Stoner kept himself healthy while Lorenzo injured himself out of contention. Again in 2013: Lorenzo arguably lost the title at Assen/Germany when he broke the same collarbone a week in succession. Marquez didn't.

If you want to use assumptions. It is pretty fair that Lorenzo would have won in Misano IF he hadn't crashed out. But assumptions mean nothing.

MV or VR wouldn't look at that missed race in comparing which rider is better than the other.

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I wonder then, why you used it as a statement for declaring Rossi would have been even closer to Vinales, if neither looked at it.

AntG said:

Does racing have that much of a bearing on bike sales? For years the Fireblade was the best selling 1000cc sports bike but it wasn't winning much.

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Fire blades and R1s don’t make money. Little 125cc somethings with race replica paint schemes in Indonesia and surrounding markets do.

Why do you think most team launches in recent times have happened in south east Asia?

synn said:

Fire blades and R1s don’t make money. Little 125cc somethings with race replica paint schemes in Indonesia and surrounding markets do.

Why do you think most team launches in recent times have happened in south east Asia?

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I agree about Asian bike sales and Rossi’s popularity there which members who live in Asia like MickD have attested to.

RCV600RR said:

The training accident was ultimately a freak incident - just like Wayne Van Niekerk hurting himself playing a rugby match. It's an extraneous supervening event. They'd look at points totals, then wins, then poles. MV wouldn't go to bed every night thinking he's superior to VR because VR crashed his enduro bike.

MV or VR wouldn't look at that missed race in comparing which rider is better than the other.

It's pretty fair to assume that VR would've scored reasonable points at his strongest track (he even finished second at Misano on the Duke) and the 22 point deficit would've been even less, and he would've performed better at Aragon.

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I go both ways on this.

Winning a title is pass/fail imo, and it is the business of a rider to stay healthy and no concern of his competitors, and I don’t think what ifs can fairly be applied, particularly when a racing or training accident is within the control of a rider and not due to the error of another. It was Rossi's own choice to do the motocross, or whatever training it was he did, in season. I think it is fair to say that the eventual points difference as a reflection of the margin of superiority is affected though.

We also have the fact that Vinales was dominating Rossi until his preferred tyre was taken away from him against any natural justice imo, the latter now seemingly recognised by regulatiion. Vinales' decline perhaps did demonstrate that he may be limited in terms of having narrow requirements to be competitive at the pointy end of the field, although perhaps being competitive in the first place was a quite significant achievement if the bike was an intrinsic dud as has subsequently been decided.