Jerez MotoGP Test

Jumkie · Dec 3, 2015

RCV600RR said:
You're changing the topic.

You criticised him for 'cruising around for points' (i.e. not winning too many races, but being consistently near or on the podium) to somehow detract from his achievement. I pointed out that the same criticism was applied to Hayden in '06. You changed the topic and started whinging about Rossi's special status (which is a separate issue entirely).

Don't take this the wrong way (and I'm guessing you probably will...) but your inability to cede even the most minute point relating to Rossi evinces a profound irrationality that, I think, is not paralleled by anyone else on this forum. Your intense hatred of Rossi needs to be tempered. This level of hatred is blinding.

Dude, that was a dig at VR exactly for the reason you mention. You answered your own question, my post speaks to the greater topic of the thread, as i see you agree with J4rn0's insane line of "reasoning" to tacitly defend VR and so i understand your overall position in the debate. This isn't our first exchange. The cruising caretaker, remember. In other words, using the dig boppers used against them. Not that they'd accept it. Just like, this is racing. Suddenly all the ........ VR was admired for, taking risk, racing aggressive, not whining or sulking, etc. All that are suddenly not visible.

bh84 · Dec 3, 2015

Jumkie said:
Testing is a forecast for next year, and so I'm offering my prediction based on the TESTING. Regardless of testing it will be the usual 4 best bikes. Rossi will appear as a contender because of it. Oh I see, you don't want me to mention that.

Redding is doing awesome. He maybe be this year's dark horse to not win a race but come frustratingly close to podiums when the top 4 have a hiccup. There, happy?

Bh84, there's another thread entitled Valencia Testing, go look at that one for my takes that you may like, i discuss 'testing' and stuff. Oh and avoid any posts that mention the name Rossi, as I see it's toxic to you.

Lol, talking .... about a rider I happen to admire is hardly "toxic" to me bud. and its gonna take a lot more than that to put me off.

By the way, did you buy your tinfoil hat or make it yourself?

RCV600RR · Dec 14, 2015

Jumkie said:
Dude, that was a dig at VR exactly for the reason you mention. You answered your own question, my post speaks to the greater topic of the thread, as i see you agree with J4rn0's insane line of "reasoning" to tacitly defend VR and so i understand your overall position in the debate. This isn't our first exchange. The cruising caretaker, remember. In other words, using the dig boppers used against them. Not that they'd accept it. Just like, this is racing. Suddenly all the ........ VR was admired for, taking risk, racing aggressive, not whining or sulking, etc. All that are suddenly not visible.

Right. So you were being sarcastic. I missed it, obviously.

RCV600RR · Dec 14, 2015

#22 said:
All I'd say about that is it's not a straightforward comparison as the 07 Stones were built for Ducati, the 08 and onwards Stones were almost certainly tailored towards Yamaha/Rossi. Either way, it hurt Ducati.

The same Bridgestone who told Rossi that they didn't have space for him at the end of 2007 suddenly changed their mind and custom-made their tyres for Rossi?

A tyre's characteristics cannot be so radically altered, so quickly. All the Bridgestone-shod bikes (Kawi, Suzuki and Ducati) had a strong 2007.

michaelm · Dec 14, 2015

RCV600RR said:
The same Bridgestone who told Rossi that they didn't have space for him at the end of 2007 suddenly changed their mind and custom-made their tyres for Rossi?

A tyre's characteristics cannot be so radically altered, so quickly. All the Bridgestone-shod bikes (Kawi, Suzuki and Ducati) had a strong 2007.

Except Kawasaki left the sport, and Suzuki took a break from the sport, specifically saying this was because the Bridgestones had changed requiring re-design of their bikes, and Ducati also said for several years that the Bridgestones no longer suited their bike and that most of the bike's problems could be solved by a suitable tyre; they wished to start again with Michelin and develop a tyre to suit their bike rather than go to a control Bridgestone tyre in 2009 if you recall.

Jumkie · Dec 14, 2015

RCV600RR said:
The same Bridgestone who told Rossi that they didn't have space for him at the end of 2007 suddenly changed their mind and custom-made their tyres for Rossi?

A tyre's characteristics cannot be so radically altered, so quickly. All the Bridgestone-shod bikes (Kawi, Suzuki and Ducati) had a strong 2007.

Yes, the Bridgestones that didn't want Rossi, as you correctly state, changed their tires for the following year. Answer this question: Where do you suppose that power and pressure came from to have to take on Rossi after publicly expressing they didn't want him?

It's good that you bring up how the change in tires effected other people's fortunes. Again, you correctly state in 07 Suzuki and Kawasaki had banner years. Multiple podiums for John Hopkins and Chris Vermeulen, Suzuki final standings in 4th overall. How did this dramatic tire change (you seem to doubt) effect them in 08? John Hopkins on a Kawasaki, 16th. The Suzukis were 8th & 10th. That is to say, the tire change was detrimental! In fact, it was so detrimental it ultimately led to their demise.

How can you correctly state the tire situation of 2007 yet fail to see the effect of the tire change for 08 because you insist on defending the League's treatment of Rossi as if it's impartial? It's obvious the only person who benefited from the 08 tire change was Valentino Rossi. But it passes your sniff test?

Jumkie · Dec 14, 2015

michaelm said:
Except Kawasaki left the sport, and Suzuki took a break from the sport, specifically saying this was because the Bridgestones had changed requiring re-design of their bikes, and Ducati also said for several years that the Bridgestones no longer suited their bike and that most of the bike's problems could be solved by a suitable tyre; they wished to start again with Michelin and develop a tyre to suit their bike rather than go to a control Bridgestone tyre in 2009 if you recall.

Never has anything been so clear as to detrimentally effect all previous clients, as it did to Bridgestones teams, who suffered a performance collapse by having to accommodate a one Valentino Rossi. As you know buddy, I've contended many years, its not just a matter of a willingness of the League to alter it apparatus, but rather, actively altering that apparatus with specific aim.

povol · Dec 14, 2015

Anyone who argues that Bridgestone didn't change the tires to suit Rossi either didn't pay attention to what other Bridgestone teams were saying, or are completely disengenuous . Once they were forced to take Rossi, it made perfect sense on the marketing side to accommodate him, they are not stupid. In fact they hired him as spokesman . Ducati begged to be allowed to switch to Michelin, but Dorna knew Casey Stoner on tires built just for him would result in the Golden Child being exposed. How did they know, they allowed the chosen one to build an empire on tires built specifically for him and they knew Stoner and his bodacious talents would bring what they spent so much time building, come crumbling down.

Jumkie · Dec 14, 2015

povol said:
Anyone who argues that Bridgestone didn't change the tires to suit Rossi either didn't pay attention to what other Bridgestone teams were saying, or are completely disengenuous . Once they were forced to take Rossi, it made perfect sense on the marketing side to accommodate him, they are not stupid. In fact they hired him as spokesman . Ducati begged to be allowed to switch to Michelin, but Dorna knew Casey Stoner on tires built just for him would result in the Golden Child being exposed. How did they know, they allowed the chosen one to build an empire on tires built specifically for him and they knew Stoner and his bodacious talents would bring what they spent so much time building, come crumbling down.

If we could paint a portrait to illustration the progression of the Bridgestone shod machines and what happened to their fortunes once they took on Rossi, it would look like a cliff.

Ducati win the title, Suzuki enjoy multiple podiums, a win (3 of those podiums were near wins as 2nd place) and even Kawasaki found itself on the podium with Randy Depuniet. Enter 2008. It was James Dean driving off a cliff. Ducati find itself in the gravel, Suzuki go from podium and win contenders to 8th & 10th, Kawasaki announce their exit from the sport. The 08 tire might as well been a suicide vest.

J4rn0 · Dec 15, 2015

Jumkie said:
Dude, that was a dig at VR exactly for the reason you mention. You answered your own question, my post speaks to the greater topic of the thread, as i see you agree with J4rn0's insane line of "reasoning" to tacitly defend VR and so i understand your overall position in the debate. This isn't our first exchange. The cruising caretaker, remember. In other words, using the dig boppers used against them. Not that they'd accept it. Just like, this is racing. Suddenly all the ........ VR was admired for, taking risk, racing aggressive, not whining or sulking, etc. All that are suddenly not visible.

Here comes Dunkie again, the self-appointed guardian of sanity, twisting like an eel trying to make sense of himself. Not an easy task, we understand, but when your chosen mission in life is leading an anti-Rossi jihad, it's surely worth it.

michaelm · Dec 15, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Here comes Dunkie again, the self-appointed guardian of sanity, twisting like an eel trying to make sense of himself. Not an easy task, we understand, but when your chosen mission in life is leading an anti-Rossi jihad, it's surely worth it.

So Stoner and Presiozi were entirely responsible for Ducati's deteriorating results, and it had nothing to do with changes in the tyres, and Ducati's wish to go forward with Michelin instead of acceding to a control tyre was purely vexatious empty rhetoric, and their subsequent complaints about the Bridgestone control tyre not suiting their bike were lies?

AntG · Dec 15, 2015

The control tyre is the worst thing to happen to MotoGP and it's that which has made the racing seem a bit stale. Over the last decade I've seen various people saying we need to do this and do that for the sake of the racing so now we have a spec tyre and a spec ECU, MotoGP is mutating into NASCAR.

This is Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing the bikes are supposed to be the stars, they should be allowed to use Bridgestones or Michelins or Pirellis or Dunlops, they should be allowed to use sophisticated spin control systems, they should be allowed to use 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 cylinders, they should be allowed to to use 2 or 4 stroke engines, they should be allowed to use rotary engines. Why? Because that is what it's about, it's about innovation, if people want to see all the riders on a level playing field then I suggest they go and watch the Ducati 848 Cup.

J4rn0 · Dec 15, 2015

michaelm said:
So Stoner and Presiozi were entirely responsible for Ducati's deteriorating results, and it had nothing to do with changes in the tyres, and Ducati's wish to go forward with Michelin instead of acceding to a control tyre was purely vexatious empty rhetoric, and their subsequent complaints about the Bridgestone control tyre not suiting their bike were lies?

I think you may have quoted me by mistake.
Anyway, my answers to your questions are:
1. Stoner was not responsible at all, Preziosi was partially responsible
2. It had to do with tires but also with (lack of, or wrong) development
3. No, because a custom tire (whatever the brand) could have solved or eased many of Ducati's problems, but at the time it was wishful thinking
4. No, they were sincere of course -- but useless
Cheers

povol · Dec 15, 2015

AntG said:
The control tyre is the worst thing to happen to MotoGP and it's that which has made the racing seem a bit stale. Over the last decade I've seen various people saying we need to do this and do that for the sake of the racing so now we have a spec tyre and a spec ECU, MotoGP is mutating into NASCAR.

This is Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing the bikes are supposed to be the stars, they should be allowed to use Bridgestones or Michelins or Pirellis or Dunlops, they should be allowed to use sophisticated spin control systems, they should be allowed to use 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 cylinders, they should be allowed to to use 2 or 4 stroke engines, they should be allowed to use rotary engines. Why? Because that is what it's about, it's about innovation, if people want to see all the riders on a level playing field then I suggest they go and watch the Ducati 848 Cup.

Can i like this 10000000 times.

WVMotoGP99 · Dec 15, 2015

AntG said:
The control tyre is the worst thing to happen to MotoGP and it's that which has made the racing seem a bit stale. Over the last decade I've seen various people saying we need to do this and do that for the sake of the racing so now we have a spec tyre and a spec ECU, MotoGP is mutating into NASCAR.

This is Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing the bikes are supposed to be the stars, they should be allowed to use Bridgestones or Michelins or Pirellis or Dunlops, they should be allowed to use sophisticated spin control systems, they should be allowed to use 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 cylinders, they should be allowed to to use 2 or 4 stroke engines, they should be allowed to use rotary engines. Why? Because that is what it's about, it's about innovation, if people want to see all the riders on a level playing field then I suggest they go and watch the Ducati 848 Cup.

Wouldn't this just end up being the MFG with the deepest pockets winning each year? Would be even less about the bikes and more about who is willing to out spend the others.

michaelm · Dec 15, 2015

J4rn0 said:
I think you may have quoted me by mistake.
Anyway, my answers to your questions are:
1. Stoner was not responsible at all, Preziosi was partially responsible
2. It had to do with tires but also with (lack of, or wrong) development
3. No, because a custom tire (whatever the brand) could have solved or eased many of Ducati's problems, but at the time it was wishful thinking
4. No, they were sincere of course -- but useless
Cheers

No mistake, I was wondering whether you were disputing that changes to tyres affected the teams who were running Bridgestones in 2007 after that year, which had been the main topic of discussion recently in this thread. It is now clear you don't dispute this and that you were making a subsidiary point about Jumkie and Rossi.

I think tyre changes hampered Stoner at least twice in his premier class career, and that the control tyre perhaps paradoxically ended up favouring Honda and Yamaha over the less well resourced teams.

Interestingly Stoner to my knowledge has never complained about tyre changes in 2008 or the control tyre, perhaps consistent with his contention at the time that the original 2009 carbon fibre bike was fine in his hands when he was healthy, presumably including working with the then current tyre.

Keshav · Dec 15, 2015

WVMotoGP99 said:
Wouldn't this just end up being the MFG with the deepest pockets winning each year? Would be even less about the bikes and more about who is willing to out spend the others.

Screw that. They should have Saturn three-stage liquid-fueled thrusters and come equipped with carbon fiber Glocks.

AntG · Dec 15, 2015

WVMotoGP99 said:
Wouldn't this just end up being the MFG with the deepest pockets winning each year? Would be even less about the bikes and more about who is willing to out spend the others.

Possibly but that's how it used to be and the bikes and racing were more interesting then.

povol · Dec 15, 2015

WVMotoGP99 said:
Wouldn't this just end up being the MFG with the deepest pockets winning each year? Would be even less about the bikes and more about who is willing to out spend the others.

Nope, if you believe what is said that Honda spends close to double what Yamaha spends in Gp, it would stand to reason Honda would win the title almost every year. The facts are, Yamaha has won more titles in the last ten years than anyone on half the budget.

WVMotoGP99 · Dec 16, 2015

povol said:
Nope, if you believe what is said that Honda spends close to double what Yamaha spends in Gp, it would stand to reason Honda would win the title almost every year. The facts are, Yamaha has won more titles in the last ten years than anyone on half the budget.

Don't see it that way, because as of today, no matter what they spend, they have to meet specific regs and rules that try to keep the bikes competitive. But if you are correct and Honda spends twice the amount and could basically but anything out on the track, then wouldn't it stand to reason that they would put a bike out there that is twice as good as the others.

I think you would end up with a race series with one or two bike MFG. In today market, very few MFG are going to get in a war to see who can out spend who. And that is all it will be. It will be able Bucks rather than Bikes.

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