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BarryMachine said:
And rossis results have gone off a cliff since JB left.
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Not really.

He went much better with Galbusera particularly in 2015 obviously. However, while Burgess' capacities may have been over-rated and he wouldn't have been able to do so either in all reality, I don't see Galbusera as being of the stature which would enable him to lead a radical revamp of the Yamaha.

Even allowing for my personal bias, I think having your program focused on a rising 40 year old against the likes of a 25 year old MM is problematic as I previously said. I think the succession plans at Yamaha have been disturbed, they look like they now may lose Zarco as well, and while it was a winning and very likely the best strategy to have Rossi and a test mule on the team in his pomp, with the best will in the world Rossi has got 1 or 2 years left in him and while he will doubtless continue to win races he basically needs both MM and Honda to have a bad year together again to win the glorious 10th, and I am sure the Yamaha engineers etc are having difficulty knowing who to look to, particularly with Vinales looking like a contender albeit briefly last year.
 
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michaelm said:
Not really.

He went much better with Galbusera particularly in 2015 obviously. However, while Burgess' capacities may have been over-rated and he wouldn't have been able to do so either in all reality, I don't see Galbusera as being of the stature which would enable him to lead a radical revamp of the Yamaha.

Even allowing for my personal bias, I think having your program focused on a rising 40 year old against the likes of a 25 year old MM is problematic as I previously said. I think it succession plans at Yamaha have been disturbed, they look like they now may now lose Zarco as well, and while it was a winning and very likely the best strategy to have Rossi and a test mule on the team in his pomp, with the best will in the world Rossi has got 1 or 2 years left in him and while he will doubtless continue to win races he basically needs both MM and Honda to have a bad year together again to win the glorious 10th, and I am sure the Yamaha engineers etc are having difficulty knowing who to look to, particularly with Vinales looking like a contender albeit briefly last year.
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I agree with most of this and this is probably one of the reasons why Yamaha needs VR46 to be their B team very soon.

There are some great talents coming out of the academy but right now all Yamaha can do is watch them get poached by Honda and Ducati as is happening with Morbidelli and soon, Bagnaia.

I personally foresee Yamaha having a dip in their fortunes for a few years and then bouncing back once they find their way around the spec software and have the next generation of talents signed up.
 
The Yam is just as good as it’s always been. It can’t ride itself to the championship though. They still needed Lorenzo to win those championships. There are currently 2 riders head and shoulders above the rest. Take Marquez away from Honda and Dovi from Ducati they would be in the same boat as Yamaha, that being a boat without a rudder.

Anyone think Marquez couldn’t win the championship on the current Yam? Anyone think Rossi would beat him if he was on the Honda?
 
birdman said:
The Yam is just as good as it’s always been. It can’t ride itself to the championship though. They still needed Lorenzo to win those championships. There are currently 2 riders head and shoulders above the rest. Take Marquez away from Honda and Dovi from Ducati they would be in the same boat as Yamaha, that being a boat without a rudder.

Anyone think Marquez couldn’t win the championship on the current Yam? Anyone think Rossi would beat him if he was on the Honda?
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I think MM could win or at least be highly competitive on either Honda, Yamaha or Ducati. He is that good.

Aprilia, KTM and Suzuki. That is a stretch to far. Even for his level of ability. Wouldn't discount him from winning a race though, except on the Ape.
 
If peak Rossi could jump on to a dog of an M1 and win a championship straightaway, peak Marquez could do exactly the same. Probably not on the Aprilia, but on everything else.
 
synn said:
Three runner ups in a row is going off a cliff.
Whatever you say, Barbie.
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As a racer of the likes of Rossi for an honest opinion and he would say that all post-JB years have been a failure, just as were some with JB.

A racer does not care for 2nd, 3rd, 4th or wherever as for them (at this level of course), it is all about the top step, any other position and you lost.

None of that disparages the results but of the factory guys, none would truly accept a second all things being equal (have no doubts that coming back from injury, a podium can and may be celebrated)
 
Gaz said:
As a racer of the likes of Rossi for an honest opinion and he would say that all post-JB years have been a failure, just as were some with JB.

A racer does not care for 2nd, 3rd, 4th or wherever as for them (at this level of course), it is all about the top step, any other position and you lost.

None of that disparages the results but of the factory guys, none would truly accept a second all things being equal (have no doubts that coming back from injury, a podium can and may be celebrated)
Click to expand...

During those years Rossi also had some fortune and others misfortune. It happens in every sport where the stars align and an athlete is able to achieve more than his ability at the time should've been capable of. You still have to be good enough to take advantage of those things of course.
 
synn said:
If peak Rossi could jump on to a dog of an M1 and win a championship straightaway, peak Marquez could do exactly the same. Probably not on the Aprilia, but on everything else.
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Poor old Furusawa the grandfather of the 04 M1 is losing sleep over your post Synn. Yes I agree Rossi put in a great season in 04. One of the best. But let’s not overdo it too much and take the credit away from the team. Furusawa might be described as the best designer in the history of MotoGP. The current M1 as I understand it is the same design concept as it was in 04. Your talking about a 13 year highly successful run, probably the single most successful design concept in MotoGP. Ok maybe the current M1 is a dog that you think needs to learn a few new V4 tricks but I don’t know about that. To me the V4s are Big Bang clones of the M1 crosdplane engine.

Let’s look at the impression of Rossi when he first rode the 04 ‘dog’. He said ‘it felt really slow, not like a fast bike at all, but when I looked at the lap time, amazing, it was much better than I expected.’

When a bike is fast but feels slow, it ain’t a dog. Furusawa was a genius. When a bike feels fast but is actually slow, then Huston we have a problem. I’d like to say 07 Ducati at this point, but that would be a disservice to the greatness of Prezioso, who along with Bridgestone and Gabarrini and yes even crybaby Stoner caught the rest with their pants down with a great achievement, one of the best in MotoGP history, just like 04, a game changer.

No the one rider who I would say won a championship on an absolute dog of a bike was in fact steady Eddie Lawson who rode a not so steady year on an 89 Honda that was described as unrideable by none other than 5 times champ Mick Doohan.

You see I get you like Rossi that’s fine, fans are the sport, I’m a massive Stoner, Doohan, now Dovi, Marquez, even Miller fan. But if only Rossi fans could appreciate more than just Rossi? No one wins a championship alone, even Lawson had the legendary crew chief Erve Canemoto in his corner without whom the championship wouldn’t have been possible ala Rossi 04 on the Furusawa ‘dog’ of a Yamaha.
 
Gaz said:
As a racer of the likes of Rossi for an honest opinion and he would say that all post-JB years have been a failure, just as were some with JB.

A racer does not care for 2nd, 3rd, 4th or wherever as for them (at this level of course), it is all about the top step, any other position and you lost.

None of that disparages the results but of the factory guys, none would truly accept a second all things being equal (have no doubts that coming back from injury, a podium can and may be celebrated)
Click to expand...


I agree that a racer would never be happy with anything less than 1st.
Calling it "Going over a cliff" however is comedically terrible.
 
birdman said:
Poor old Furusawa the grandfather of the 04 M1 is losing sleep over your post Synn. Yes I agree Rossi put in a great season in 04. One of the best. But let’s not overdo it too much and take the credit away from the team. Furusawa might be described as the best designer in the history of MotoGP. The current M1 as I understand it is the same design concept as it was in 04. Your talking about a 13 year highly successful run, probably the single most successful design concept in MotoGP. Ok maybe the current M1 is a dog that you think needs to learn a few new V4 tricks but I don’t know about that. To me the V4s are Big Bang clones of the M1 crosdplane engine.

Let’s look at the impression of Rossi when he first rode the 04 ‘dog’. He said ‘it felt really slow, not like a fast bike at all, but when I looked at the lap time, amazing, it was much better than I expected.’

When a bike is fast but feels slow, it ain’t a dog. Furusawa was a genius. When a bike feels fast but is actually slow, then Huston we have a problem. I’d like to say 07 Ducati at this point, but that would be a disservice to the greatness of Prezioso, who along with Bridgestone and Gabarrini and yes even crybaby Stoner caught the rest with their pants down with a great achievement, one of the best in MotoGP history, just like 04, a game changer.

No the one rider who I would say won a championship on an absolute dog of a bike was in fact steady Eddie Lawson who rode a not so steady year on an 89 Honda that was described as unrideable by none other than 5 times champ Mick Doohan.

You see I get you like Rossi that’s fine, fans are the sport, I’m a massive Stoner, Doohan, now Dovi, Marquez, even Miller fan. But if only Rossi fans could appreciate more than just Rossi? No one wins a championship alone, even Lawson had the legendary crew chief Erve Canemoto in his corner without whom the championship wouldn’t have been possible ala Rossi 04 on the Furusawa ‘dog’ of a Yamaha.
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You raise fair points, but I will correct you that I am not "Just a Rossi fan". I have stated several times here of who and what I am a fan of, something that some people choose to ignore on purpose.

I wasn't attempting to say that winning in 04 was all Rossi. Of course not. But the rider is the most important part of the equation (Which is what Rossi wanted to prove to Honda) and that's why I think Marquez right now could win a championship on pretty much any bike on the grid.

Let's also not forget that Honda put an armada of riders on the same bike Rossi conquered the world on and... pretty much nothing happened.

IF Marquez were to leave Honda next year and move to say, KTM, I see a higher probability of him winning the championship with whatever bike they can cook up than his replacement at Honda winning one on the seat he vacated.
 
synn said:
This is what happened right after Burgess was let go:

https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/11/...plains-why-he-fired-crew-chief-jeremy-burgess
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My point was perhaps the opposite of what you interpreted it to be, and was not anti-Rossi at all. Burgess was openly saying, in the Australian press anyway, that he thought Rossi was past it, an untenable situation for Rossi if he wished to continue, and I thought then and now Rossi was right to look elsewhere.

Burgess might have been right as well of course, despite results good by most standards other than his own I don’t think he has added much in the way of lustre to his career. If he had just been happy to keep racing because he loved it and to still be competitive but not to the degree he was in his pomp I would have actually found that admirable as I have said, but from my point of view that is not what has transpired.
 
synn said:
I agree that a racer would never be happy with anything less than 1st.
Calling it "Going over a cliff" however is comedically terrible.
Click to expand...

I suspect that for Rossi, whom success has come somewhat easily for a great many years, his failure to secure that ever elusive 10th title is much as though he has fallen off a cliff.

Sure, it may not be the desired commentary for a great number of fans, but Rossi always has been about success as with his success he can then build his business/empire/brand which, whilst it still grows would grow exponentially if that elusive 10th title were to occur.

Maybe to most he has not fallen from a cliff, but to someone so successful, he is at least very close (metaphorically speaking).

The interesting point out of it all (and my comments) is that there are a great many racers over the years that would give everything ta have one year as good as Rossi's worst non-Ducati year ............ shows the level of the field and where he has set the bar
 
IIRC, the end of 2015 was exactly that for Rossi, he had trouble sleeping and was unable to get over the events that happened then.
 
synn said:
You raise fair points, but I will correct you that I am not "Just a Rossi fan". I have stated several times here of who and what I am a fan of, something that some people choose to ignore on purpose.

I wasn't attempting to say that winning in 04 was all Rossi. Of course not. But the rider is the most important part of the equation (Which is what Rossi wanted to prove to Honda) and that's why I think Marquez right now could win a championship on pretty much any bike on the grid.

Let's also not forget that Honda put an armada of riders on the same bike Rossi conquered the world on and... pretty much nothing happened.

IF Marquez were to leave Honda next year and move to say, KTM, I see a higher probability of him winning the championship with whatever bike they can cook up than his replacement at Honda winning one on the seat he vacated.
Click to expand...
The history of the sport doesn’t suggest the rider is the most important part of the equation. Simply put if the rider is not on a factory Honda or Yamaha they are highly unlikely to become champion.

Stoner goes from horrible 2010 on the Ducati to practically unbeatable on the 2011 Honda. Rossi went from 2009 champion for the 7th time to zero race wins in 2011. In 2017 peeps said Lorenzo only won championships because he was riding a Yamaha and now the Ducati results were in fact the true indication of his talent.

I don’t think Marquez is going anywhere soon. He’s better than Pedrosa for sure, I’d say he could win this season on the Yamaha. If he went to Ducati his chances are going to go down no matter how how good he is. Think of the odds on a Honda he could win the next 5 in a row, on a Ducati Id speculate the chances are he might win one in five. It’s an easy bet to make looking at the history of the sport.
 

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