2017 Gran Premio Motul de la Comunitat Valenciana

michaelm said:

I watched all of that unfold live for once due to the closeness of the Japanese and Australian time zones.

I blame Bernie for Bianchi. The local organisers knew a typhoon was coming and clearly considered their best option was to start the race early but Bernie wouldn't allow this because of the effect on TV viewing schedules in Europe. Deploying a crane where they did in the middle of said typhoon was an act of compounding extreme stupidity. They should have called the race off at that stage ffs.

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Agree, I think it was criminal.

Anyway, I can't remember what I specifically said about the incident, but knowing myself, I was likely very opinionated. Apparently I said something that 22 took issue with, so maybe he can dig it up and bump the thread so as to leave this thread on topic.

pyeman said:

I shouldn't think Dovi is too upset....i'd swap with him if he likes,he's a multi millionaire who rides GP bikes for a living and his missus is well tidy..

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The fact that you would be happy just being a millionaire racer has no barring on whether or not an actually motogp rider would be happy coming up short of a championship due to a what if factor. It will keep him up at night where as you have dreams of just competing. I get it.

Jumkie said:

Sounds like you're trying to wedge in an old racing debate that doesn't quite apply to the notion of "double standard', smacks of you trying to settle an old score on a gotcha moment?

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Not at all.

Well, frankly, I only have a sketchy memory of a debate, not so much a dispute at all, we've seldom disagreed on matters of racing. From memory, i mostly remember feeling sorrow for this kid Jules and blamed it largely on the organizers for deploying a crane in an impact zone, which I thought was predictably cavalier of the organizer's sense of value on driver's safety and lives.

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Myself also, but I remember that point particularly. Though you're right, the race never should have gone ahead anyway.

As I understand, drivers are required to respect no passing on yellow flags, and be cognizant of dangerous conditions, slowing down being one of them--the magnitude of which is not regulated by a specific requirement (that I know of) say like a speed limit through pit lane, 60mph. From your post above, you're making it sound like there is a specific requirement, an indicated 'mandatory speed' to parallel as was the demand of Ducati to drop EXACTLY 1 position, "-1 arrow down", specifically meaning 'drop down one position.' You arguing I have a "double standard" for driver/riders/employees respecting a yellow flag by 'slowing down' given NO SPECIFICS (god knows how much) as the same as requiring an individual to do exactly this: 'drop down 1 position' (that's rather specific don't you think)? How are you bridging these two elements, one being highly subjective the other being unmistakably specific? Do you understand the pivotal word in "double standard" IS 'standard'?

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I do yes. And in most racing regulations, including those used by the FIA, under the section of double waved yellows, is the statement "Slow down. BE PREPARED TO STOP". Now granted, this is more open to interpretation than the pitboard notification to drop a position, but it is still pretty specific in that you should be doing a speed that allows you to stop in a short distance. But anyway.

It doesn't sound like you're questioning my sense of safety and value of driver's lives, so therefore, you're issue is with my sense of 'magnitude' on how much they should slow down in a yellow flag condition. I don’t know the answer to that, slowing down to 100mph, 75mph, is not the same as saying slow down to a 'reasonable speed' because every driver will see "reasonable speed" quite differently.

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Agreed.

It might help if you could link me the debate. If I was wrong, I'll retract, if I wasn't ckear I'll clarify my thoughts on the position.

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I could, but then it would totally derail the thread no doubt, so am happy to leave it here.

Mick D said:

Ok. I'll bite... how the .... would anyone know that as a fact, Nostradamus?

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Because I know them, O St. Thomas...

Jumkie said:

I honestly hope some day we can sit at a GP and have a glass of whine laughing over our life and death debates. Maybe you can give me a tour of Ducati's garage or corporate offices buddy.
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I'd be glad to oblige, but would rather have :drinks:wine.

Every year I stand on the roof of my dumpster and make the proclamation that the pile of dung Ducati will not compete with the Japanese or win a race in the next 5 years. Turns out I should have quit back in 2012 when it fashionable to do so. I should have retreated to my trash heap with my beautiful blow up doll and alley cat, where the dumpster fishing is plentiful.
I'm happy to eat my ant encrusted humble pie. Seeing three manufacturers with a legitimate shot to win outside of Inclement conditions,made it quite an enjoyable season to watch,and helped abate my cynicism about the long and stale alien bike monopoly on rostrums.
Ducati appears to be trending in the right direction so I logically 2018 should be an improved platform.
Going into 2017 Dovi couldn't have known that he had a package that could take him within one race of a championship. He had no real expectations of winning a third of the races. Moving past the events at Valencia, Dovi has to realize that in the big picture the championship wasn't lost in the final round, it was lost in bits and increments over the course of the season. ( precisely why the one off Stoner vs MM talk is a pointless farce)
In 2018 Dovi will move forward with the knowledge of how important every race is in the big picture. I hope 2017 becomes a springboard for him. He has the platform and more importantly the learned knowledge that winning a championship is a feasible goal.

The big road block now is the pressure on him is going to be increased. The expectations will be higher and his .... teammate will be ruthlessly trying to step over him.

Pix of the doll?

My gut feeling is that we just saw peak Ducati and in a couple of years, KTM will overtake them as the No.3 manufacturer.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling I won’t be.

I really rate KTM. Anywhere they've raced, they've won quickly.

Oliveira will win Moto2 next year.

Well, I will go on record pulling for Lorenzo next year. I think all the talk of him being an ass will just make him stronger, as it has in the past. He knows he is an ass by now.
Also, he fell off the Yamaha a lot the first year while learning to ride it. Hopefully he is on upswing of that learning curve on the Ducati. Hopefully also Gigi will have some new tricks to pull out of the bag. They are going to need them to win. That’s a lot of hoping... oh and I like Dovi a lot, always have. I just don’t think he has the drive of a championship winner, he proved it this year. I was pulling for him but as others have pointed out, he caved at PI.

I watched KTM win 1-2 at an outdoor MX race earlier this year. I would bet they are capable of the same in roadracing. It seems Honda is getting more reluctant to spend money on development in all Motorsport. Having a hot property like Márquez in Roadracing is making them dig deeper to keep him. They already made the mistake of letting somebody like that go once
Any way you look at it, next year will be fascinating!

JPSLotus said:

I just want to say I did predict there was a possibility of MM crashing in spite of the belief by quite a few he had the title wrapped up, and he came very close to binning it were it not for his magnificent alien save at over 90MPH. ......

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You are a genius, my man, considering that Marc-ey only crashed 27 times this year. He has made me a nervous wreck almost every race since he entered MotoGP because he is on the edge so much of the time.

And you were absolutely correct. He did crash. In fact, after he picked the bike up from the crash, he rode through a gravel pit that looked a hell-of-a-lot like the gravel pit that Dovi didn't ride through. And that, my friend, right there, may be why MM has four MotoGP championships (and could have five), when Dovi has zero. I am pretty damn sure I have never seen anything quite like this guy. And that is a good thing for me, and for the sport.

pyeman said:

I don't know if he's another Rossi,he's never going to be that popular with the masses anyway,for me he started acting like a dick when he got involved in all that Rossi/Marquez .... back in 2015,remember his thumbs down gestures on the podium?,he didn't need to involve himself the way he did and now he seems to have turned into a right bloody prima donna who thinks he knows better than everyone else.He should have just let Dovi past ,Dovi was never going to win that race anyway,he probably would have crashed sooner than he did pushing too hard to get near the front and Lorenzo would have done his image a huge favour,instead he comes out of it looking like a right .... but he doesn't seem to care anyway.I hope Dovi pisses all over him again next season,karma's a bitch and i reckon Lorenzo's gonna get his ass bitten.

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I hope he does as well

birdman said:

You think team VRDorna will sit idly by as Marquez ecplises the sun god? Not likely. Once VR retires and runs a team he will be by far the most influential and powerful figure in the sport. Poncheral has a contract with Yamaha? Hahaha. Dorna has rules governing the number of slots. More laughter, when have pesky rules ever been an impediment. Team VR will be factory spec and Michelin will be camped out in the garage whispering in Rossi’s ear. Marquez will no longer benefit from favourable mid season tire switches, he will receive the softest marshmellow tires imaginable.

With the current Ducati controversy, what’s the bet Lorenzo gets a slot on team VR, at minimum for his development abilities. If not maybe Zarco or pretty much whoever is hot property will be lining up to get a gig. This is when Marquez will face his hardest competition and then we will see if he is truly able to work miracles or if he is just as easily manipulated as those before him. I just can’t see him strolling nochulantly past 9 times at 27 years of age being congratuated by Uccio and uncle Ezzy in park ferme while King Rossi sulks in the corner.

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I don't think Dorna will have any option, if they let Rossi have a team before 2021, there is only one team he can buy and can you see Herve doing that, it will be a very bloody nose that Dorna get from that quarter if they try.
Have you noticed slimeball uccio recently, he's hidding in a corner, methinks the mechanics might like to help him into an accident. preferably one of those nice tool dollys going amok.

MdubSTYLIE said:

The fact that you would be happy just being a millionaire racer has no barring on whether or not an actually motogp rider would be happy coming up short of a championship due to a what if factor. It will keep him up at night where as you have dreams of just competing. I get it.

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Just a bit of perspective that's all...i reckon if you'd told Dovi at the start of the season that he would win 6 races and finish up as runner up in the championship he would have laughed at you,he must have known after Philip Island that the title was out of reach in reality,he has had an outstanding season when most people at Ducati would have been looking at Lorenzo as the number 1 and he was due to play second fiddle...and his missus is well worth a poke like i said...

pyeman said:

Just a bit of perspective that's all...i reckon if you'd told Dovi at the start of the season that he would win 6 races and finish up as runner up in the championship he would have laughed at you,he must have known after Philip Island that the title was out of reach in reality,he has had an outstanding season when most people at Ducati would have been looking at Lorenzo as the number 1 and he was due to play second fiddle...and his missus is well worth a poke like i said...

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Read up on the psychology of coming a close second.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Thanks for the kind words Payne. I had a bit of insomnia last night and went a bit crazy writing. I hear you about difference of opinion. It's funny but there's a body of research that explores once we make up our mind it's nearly impossible to change it. So imagine me writing knowing it's futile, that's insanity right? I guess I've got riled up because Dovi is such a good guy, apart from being a great racer, and often it's the careless actions of selfish people that screw these types over (applies to real life). We all have to filter and decipher what people say, as a point of fact, neither of us 'know' if Lorenzo is telling the truth (though as I pointed out, it's irrelevant). I don't think from my point of view his claim was credible, so I'm calling ......... Partly, I will admit it's because I saw many parallel between this and the 06 championship. These moments don't come around often for the Dovi's of the world, and I feel he deserved all benefit of the doubt and support from any Ducati member in this situation. Lorenzo left some measure of doubt of what might have been.

Not the end of the world I suppose.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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It wasn't futile fella. I've read and valued the opinions on here as it's always a lot more balanced than the hysterical spin that the racing commentators put on a race.

Now whilst I can understand JLo's reasons and still don't believe that he was holding him up, I do wish that he had let him go.

I don't think Dovi would have done anything productive but at least JLo wouldn't have been in the zone when the blame and disappointment for Dovi not succeeding was being meted out.

I guess he should have had a '.... it, I don't care about this race' attitude and let Dovi do his thing. He wouldn't then have to contend with this negative press. But as I've said before, maybe he doesn't care about the negativity and just does his thing.

I do also agree with you that Dovi seems to be a great guy and it would have been wonderful if he could have won the championship. If only the bike would have performed better at PI when he was on a roll.

Bern1 said:

Well, I will go on record pulling for Lorenzo next year. I think all the talk of him being an ass will just make him stronger, as it has in the past. He knows he is an ass by now.
Also, he fell off the Yamaha a lot the first year while learning to ride it. Hopefully he is on upswing of that learning curve on the Ducati. Hopefully also Gigi will have some new tricks to pull out of the bag. They are going to need them to win. That’s a lot of hoping... oh and I like Dovi a lot, always have. I just don’t think he has the drive of a championship winner, he proved it this year. I was pulling for him but as others have pointed out, he caved at PI.

I watched KTM win 1-2 at an outdoor MX race earlier this year. I would bet they are capable of the same in roadracing. It seems Honda is getting more reluctant to spend money on development in all Motorsport. Having a hot property like Márquez in Roadracing is making them dig deeper to keep him. They already made the mistake of letting somebody like that go once
Any way you look at it, next year will be fascinating!

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I'm happy to go on record pulling for him as well. The racing commentators openly revealed their dislike of him and not just because of what was happening on screen that day so I know I'll have to ignore almost every little dig or innocuous snide comment that they try to slide under the radar.

payne by name said:

It wasn't futile fella. I've read and valued the opinions on here as it's always a lot more balanced than the hysterical spin that the racing commentators put on a race.

Now whilst I can understand JLo's reasons and still don't believe that he was holding him up, I do wish that he had let him go.

I don't think Dovi would have done anything productive but at least JLo wouldn't have been in the zone when the blame and disappointment for Dovi not succeeding was being meted out.

I guess he should have had a '.... it, I don't care about this race' attitude and let Dovi do his thing. He wouldn't then have to contend with this negative press. But as I've said before, maybe he doesn't care about the negativity and just does his thing.

I do also agree with you that Dovi seems to be a great guy and it would have been wonderful if he could have won the championship. If only the bike would have performed better at PI when he was on a roll.

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Time will tell.

Even Nicky, the ultimate gentleman GP motorcycle rider never exonerated Pedrosa for Estoril 2006 despite ultimately winning the 2006 championship, so I guess Dovi’s true attitude if it is different to his recent public statements will eventually become clear.

pyeman said:

Just a bit of perspective that's all...i reckon if you'd told Dovi at the start of the season that he would win 6 races and finish up as runner up in the championship he would have laughed at you,he must have known after Philip Island that the title was out of reach in reality,he has had an outstanding season when most people at Ducati would have been looking at Lorenzo as the number 1 and he was due to play second fiddle...and his missus is well worth a poke like i said...

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I beg to differ. If you would have told him that, his eye would light up with fire and he'd be ready to compete. I think he knew what he could do. I predicted he'd finish pretty much where he did. Now I'm not saying that to gloat, I'm saying that to point out if I saw it then I bet he did too. I knew if you took the crashes away they were not his own doing and subtracted JLo's points from 2016 and he'd have won the championship. He knew what he needed to do to win the title and he executed his plan to perfection. He came up just short but he knows what he is capable of meow. I just hope he comes with the same or more fire next year.

The big moment captured on camera.