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Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

JPSLotus said:
Dani, simple question, over the course of his entire premier class career, has Valentino Rossi received preferential treatment from Dorna?
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I personally don't even care about that any more.

Rossi got fairly fulsome acknowledgement from pretty much everyone for every title he ever won. Even known "haters" like you and me with much hindsight still don't claim now that Stoner would have won the 2008 title had the tyre situation remained the same as it was in 2007.

What I have lost patience with is the ridiculous lack of proportion involved in considering a few people on here having an alternate view of Valentino Rossi which most can defend, while the counter arguments mostly amount to little more than name calling, to be the issue in the face of Rossi himself having made unproven allegations to the world press at large which will likely blight the remaining careers of the winners of 6 of the last 7 world titles, both riders who are quite likely top 10 all time, following on from the winners of 3 other titles out of the last 11 receiving little but derision and in the case of the second rider outright vilification, to the extent that as reigning world champion and in the lead of the the next championship he decided he couldn't be bothered with the whole circus any more .
 
Daniboy said:
Yes but not to the extent that you think .
Didn't Marquez also receive preferential treatment in his fasttrack into Repsol Honda?
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Thats amusing lol. Divert your diversion. Did Marquez receive preferential treatment whe he was taken out of a race unfairly and subsequently inferred he was partly to blame, you know, for the way he rode in a previous race. Which he won. Has as there ever been a case in motogp that even comes close. Rider integrity into disrepute, champion into disrepute, sport into disrepute? All on the basis of a mastermind by the name Uccio. Now that was ....... hilarious. Anything else even come close?
 
Daniboy said:
Yes but not to the extent that you think .
Didn't Marquez also receive preferential treatment in his fasttrack into Repsol Honda?
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No, a bad rule was removed. Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi, Agostini, Doohan among plenty of others all debuted on factory equipment. You're comparing apples and oranges as usual. Not even the satellite team owners thought it was a good rule.
 
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michaelm said:
I personally don't even care about that any more.

Rossi got fairly fulsome acknowledgement from pretty much everyone for every title he ever won. Even known "haters" like you and me with much hindsight still don't claim now that Stoner would have won the 2008 title had the tyre situation remained the same as it was in 2007.

What I have lost patience with is the ridiculous lack of proportion involved in considering a few people on here having an alternate view of Valentino Rossi which most can defend, while the counter arguments mostly amount to little more than name calling, to be the issue in the face of Rossi himself having made unproven allegations to the world press at large which will likely blight the remaining careers of the winners of 6 of the last 7 world titles, both riders who are quite likely top 10 all time, following on from the winners of 3 other titles out of the last 11 receiving little but derision and in the case of the second rider outright vilification, to the extent that as reigning world champion and in the lead of the the next championship he decided he couldn't be bothered with the whole circus any more .
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I feel the preferential treatment does tie into this latest incident, hence my mentioning it explicitly.

The 2008 tire situation was handled about as badly as anything we've seen handled badly in GP over the last 15 seasons save for Sepang 2 years ago. I do think that had the tire situation remained the same as 2007, it would have led to a much closer finish in the 2nd half of the season. I still stand by contention that VR probably would have won the 2007 title had Ducati never signed Stoner. It's possible Pedrosa might have given him a run for his money, but ultimately would not have been seen as a legitimate threat. The 2007 M1 was a very good bike that had great corner speed and stability, much like the current iteration of the M1. They simply ran into the wrong package that year. But I do agree with you that the most recent two winners of the championship have pretty much had their titles and careers tarnished by unproven allegations, that even when admitted that the initial accusations weren't really correct, is nowhere near enough to undo all of the damage that the initial statements made. Sure you could get an apology I suppose, but it's never going to change the perception of the two riders that the public at large holds...the bell can't be unrung.

Being labeled a hater/conspiracy theorist/whatever else is a ........ argument that never addresses the actual points being made unsurprisingly.
 
It would have been fascinating to see if Rossi would have come good on his threat to quit motogp in 2008 if he didnt get Bridgestone tires. I can definitely envision Stoner remaining champion then. Funny thing if Stoner had of threatened to quit for not being able to go to Michelin in 2009. Response, don't let the door hit you on the way out. No preferential treatment there.
 
p4p1 said:
No, a bad rule was removed. Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi, Agostini, Doohan among plenty of others all debuted on factory equipment. You're comparing apples and oranges as usual. Not even the satellite team owners thought it was a good rule.
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Yes, oddly Dorna were in the mood to do favours for Honda, rather a contrast to the whole previous year.

It was widely discussed that MM would be quite problematic for a satellite Honda team as a 1 year rental given sponsorship issues among other things.

And even if Dorna were doing favours for their future golden boy it hardly negates any arguments about them doing favours for their all time golden boy.
 
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birdman said:
It would have been fascinating to see if Rossi would have come good on his threat to quit motogp in 2008 if he didnt get Bridgestone tires. I can definitely envision Stoner remaining champion then. Funny thing if Stoner had of threatened to quit for not being able to go to Michelin in 2009. Response, don't let the door hit you on the way out. No preferential treatment there.
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It would have been amusing to see how that unfolded had Dorna not negotiated that Bridgestone deal. I suspect he would have walked back the quitting threats had he not been granted his demand as he was not going to give up motorcycle racing at the end of the day. His refusal to stop riding at his current age tells you how that episode would have turned out. However Dorna was never going to risk him walking out no matter how unrealistic the threat was. The refusal to allow Ducati to switch to Michelin for 2009 was a shame. With the carbon fiber frame, having that kind of relationship might have improved the capabilities of that bike significantly.
 
JPSLotus said:
I feel the preferential treatment does tie into this latest incident, hence my mentioning it explicitly.

The 2008 tire situation was handled about as badly as anything we've seen handled badly in GP over the last 15 seasons save for Sepang 2 years ago. I do think that had the tire situation remained the same as 2007, it would have led to a much closer finish in the 2nd half of the season. I still stand by contention that VR probably would have won the 2007 title had Ducati never signed Stoner. It's possible Pedrosa might have given him a run for his money, but ultimately would not have been seen as a legitimate threat. The 2007 M1 was a very good bike that had great corner speed and stability, much like the current iteration of the M1. They simply ran into the wrong package that year. But I do agree with you that the most recent two winners of the championship have pretty much had their titles and careers tarnished by unproven allegations, that even when admitted that the initial accusations weren't really correct, is nowhere near enough to undo all of the damage that the initial statements made. Sure you could get an apology I suppose, but it's never going to change the perception of the two riders that the public at large holds...the bell can't be unrung.

Being labeled a hater/conspiracy theorist/whatever else is a ........ argument that never addresses the actual points being made unsurprisingly.
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I don't think it was any deficiency in Valentino that lost him that championship. That Ducati was closer to being impossible to ride than it was to being a bike which rode itself, but if you could ride it there wasn't much anyone on a Yamaha could do that year.

I unfortunately see strong prospects of Lorenzo fading out fairly ignominiously, and not even being able to have much in the way of an association with Yamaha in his retirement, let alone being a revered figure like the other 3 triple title winners, including Eddie Lawson who ended his career with Cagiva, and all for the sin of riding superbly under immense pressure to close out the 2015 title, and having the same spontaneous reaction as that noted Rossi hater Nick Harris when he first encountered footage of the Rossi-MM incident. And MM faces being cheered when he crashes out, booed on the podium and having riding skills derided as was the case with Stoner, with the likes of Vudu already starting on the latter.

The Rossi fans are clearly going to switch to Vinales as their agent of revenge on the villainous MM, but I can't see myself doing other than continuing to be impressed by him despite that.
 
michaelm said:
I don't think it was any deficiency in Valentino that lost him that championship. That Ducati was closer to being impossible to ride than it was to being a bike which rode itself, but if you could ride it there wasn't much anyone on a Yamaha could do that year.



I unfortunately see strong prospects of Lorenzo fading out fairly ignominiously, and not even being able to have much in the way of an association with Yamaha in his retirement, let alone being a revered figure like the other 3 triple title winners, including Eddie Lawson who ended his career with Cagiva, and all for the sin of riding superbly under immense pressure to close out the 2015 title, and having the same spontaneous reaction as that noted Rossi hater Nick Harris when he first encountered footage of the Rossi-MM incident. And MM faces being cheered when he crashes out, booed on the podium and having riding skills derided as was the case with Stoner, with the likes of Vudu already starting on the latter.



The Rossi fans are clearly going to switch to Vinales as their agent of revenge on the villainous MM, but I can't see myself doing other than continuing to be impressed by him despite that.
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There's plenty of time for Rossi to turn on Maverick yet, especially if he fails to get everyone on #70s this year. You can be sure though at some point they will be re-introduced due to "safety" reasons.
Does anyone else suspect Rossi's true motive is to get everyone on the #70s that he favours and away from the current tyres?
 
michaelm said:
I don't think it was any deficiency in Valentino that lost him that championship. That Ducati was closer to being impossible to ride than it was to being a bike which rode itself, but if you could ride it there wasn't much anyone on a Yamaha could do that year.

I unfortunately see strong prospects of Lorenzo fading out fairly ignominiously, and not even being able to have much in the way of an association with Yamaha in his retirement, let alone being a revered figure like the other 3 triple title winners, including Eddie Lawson who ended his career with Cagiva, and all for the sin of riding superbly under immense pressure to close out the 2015 title, and having the same spontaneous reaction as that noted Rossi hater Nick Harris when he first encountered footage of the Rossi-MM incident. And MM faces being cheered when he crashes out, booed on the podium and having riding skills derided as was the case with Stoner, with the likes of Vudu already starting on the latter.

The Rossi fans are clearly going to switch to Vinales as their agent of revenge on the villainous MM, but I can't see myself doing other than continuing to be impressed by him despite that.
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I don't think there was any deficiency either. He looked as strong as he ever did in 2007. It's hard however to put up a credible fight when we were watching the Ducati 800 look like it had an afterburner in a straight line. I've mentioned it a number of times, but I often find myself going back to that Losail race that year just because of how insane it was to watch Stoner out-accelerating everyone on the start/finish straight. This was nothing like the modern Ducati straight line acceleration...it made the other manufacturers look like they designed and built their engines in someone's garage. The flipside of that race was Rossi ate up all of the time Stoner gained on the straight in the corners. Even elsewhere the story played out similarly...but you could also see the Ducati deficiencies quite easily.

At any rate, the future with Lorenzo is yet unknown still. I just hope for our sakes he is able to come fully to grips with the Ducati otherwise he's going to slowly watch his career and accomplishments buried. I am 50/50 on whether he ever gets back to Yamaha now. I'd hate to see him suffer the indignity of having to settle for a satellite ride just to get on a M1 again.

I will never get behind Vinales to the level I would have had he remained at Suzuki or gone elsewhere and admit that watching Rossi fans nail their banner to Vinales has done a great deal to turn me off to Vinales unfortunately. He's talented obviously, but the circumstances surrounding him are a turn off, and it's nothing of his own doing. I hope for his sake he doesn't inadvertently find himself on the outs with the Rossi contingent.
 
michaelm said:
The Rossi fans are clearly going to switch to Vinales as their agent of revenge on the villainous MM, but I can't see myself doing other than continuing to be impressed by him despite that.
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Sadly and predictably it's already happening. He was hardly set to become a Loris Baz fanboy overnight was he...

moto vudu said:
MM had his time to show what he can do with top equipment & support, now it's MV's time to shine.








CAE4aXd.jpg
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moto vudu said:
Vinales shows Marquez how it's done once again. Cmon Mav... beat Marquez at COTA and that will hammer home the fact that there's a new sheriff in town.
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moto vudu said:
Marc pushed hard at the start because he was scared of Maverick's pace .
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moto vudu said:
Maverick is already in Marc's head and the pressure just cost Marc a DNF.
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moto vudu said:
IMO, Marc knew Vinales was going to have a strong pace so he pushed 100% at the start desperate to create a gap and it bit him. It wasn't his bike nor the tires that cost him the race, it was his race strategy to take maximum risk right from the start because he feared Vinales chasing him down.
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moto vudu said:
Marquez is shook right now. It's not the crash that has him shook, it's #25.
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moto vudu said:
Oh, you'll be MIA from this forum for quite a while if MV hands MM his ... at COTA.
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And on and on and on and on. Don't expect the record to be changed any time soon...it got so tiresome, even his acolyte Daniboy stopped 'liking' it.

I have always liked Viñales and although I was critical when he prematurely quit his team in 2012 with three races remaining, I regarded him as a huge potential talent, a humble kid with a great work ethic. I'd love to see him win the championship this year, but I want to see both VR and MM take it to him.

This is very much a changing of the guard. The glory hunters know that Maverick is a huge threat to VR and that elusive tenth title so this is insurance. Immediately affix your banner to the Viñales mast and you're covered each way whist simultaneously nailing the two best machines on the grid weaponising both against the dastardly Márquez. What was all that crap about 'haters'? - this puerile tribalism is frankly obsessional.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Sadly and predictably it's already happening. He was hardly set to become a Loris Baz fanboy overnight was he...















And on and on and on and on. Don't expect the record to be changed any time soon...it got so tiresome, even his acolyte Daniboy stopped 'liking' it.

I have always liked Viñales and although I was critical when he prematurely quit his team in 2012 with three races remaining, I regarded him as a huge potential talent, a humble kid with a great work ethic. I'd love to see him win the championship this year, but I want to see both VR and MM take it to him.

This is very much a changing of the guard. The glory hunters know that Maverick is a huge threat to VR and that elusive tenth title so this is insurance. Immediately affix your banner to the Viñales mast and you're covered each way whist simultaneously nailing the two best machines on the grid weaponising both against the dastardly Márquez. What was all that crap about 'haters'? - this puerile tribalism is frankly obsessional.
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Hmmm so what's my *glory hunting* chances with Dani? Unlikely as it is I'd rather see him win a title than Vale win his 10th.
 
Daniboy said:
Hmmm so what's my *glory hunting* chances with Dani? Unlikely as it is I'd rather see him win a title than Vale win his 10th.
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Actually, my post wasn't directed at you - you've always said that you'd like to see that happen. I think in many ways, I agree.

The chances? 5,000 -1.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Actually, my post wasn't directed at you - you've always said that you'd like to see that happen. I think in many ways, I agree.

The chances? 5,000 -1.
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I will take those odds, £10 bet :) Winner collects.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Sadly and predictably it's already happening. He was hardly set to become a Loris Baz fanboy overnight was he...













And on and on and on and on. Don't expect the record to be changed any time soon...it got so tiresome, even his acolyte Daniboy stopped 'liking' it.

I have always liked Viñales and although I was critical when he prematurely quit his team in 2012 with three races remaining, I regarded him as a huge potential talent, a humble kid with a great work ethic. I'd love to see him win the championship this year, but I want to see both VR and MM take it to him.

This is very much a changing of the guard. The glory hunters know that Maverick is a huge threat to VR and that elusive tenth title so this is insurance. Immediately affix your banner to the Viñales mast and you're covered each way whist simultaneously nailing the two best machines on the grid weaponising both against the dastardly Márquez. What was all that crap about 'haters'? - this puerile tribalism is frankly obsessional.
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You're ignoring the fact that I was backing MV even while he was on the Suzuki before any of us knew he would end up on the M1. I always viewed MV as a rider with a ton of potential that didn't get the same red carpet treatment that MM received so he was being overlooked. This forum has been pro-Marquez for a long time and I love that Vinales has Marquez fans shook and already coming up with excuses when we're only 2 races into the season. It's not simply that MV is threat to VR, he's a huge threat to MM! Best way to knock MM off the top is for another young & hungry rider who is every bit as fast to keep pressure on him causing MM to make unforced errors (just like what happened at Argentina). Rossi is now in a position where he can just focus on getting consistent podiums while he continues to work on improving his feel with the tires and the '17 M1 and look to finish strong. Marquez will likely return to Murder Mac mode and DNF himself out of title contention leaving just MV & VR to fight it out.

I'm hoping Vinales officially makes Marquez his ..... at COTA.
 
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