There is plenty of possibilities, especially now that Michelin had proven to 'lack transparency'.
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Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017
- Thread starter MdubSTYLIE
- Start date
There is plenty of possibilities, especially now that Michelin had proven to 'lack transparency'.
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Something must have gone wrong big time because they wanted to have 'more than just the soft tire (#70)' there...for rossi (...and others)
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Agreed. And the rider was politely refused and told to race on what was available, which he did.
Marc Marquez and Dani Pedrosa were among five riders who requested the stiffer front tyre following the season-opener in Qatar. The other three were Honda’s third man Cal Crutchlow, Andrea Iannone and Valentino Rossi, whose front-end issues have been well documented.
- Mat Oxley
Michelin only decided to bring the additional tires when the Honda riders added their voices to Rossi and Iannone after Qatar. If riders from Honda (Pedrosa, Márquez, Crutchlow) joined Yamaha (Rossi), Suzuki (Iannone) and Ducati (Bautista) in wanting the new tire, that meant that four of the six manufacturers wanted the new tire. It is worth testing, but if it is to be tested, it needs to be done properly.
- David Emmett
it’s the tyre we saw at Valencia last year and reverts to the stiffer carcase construction. Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa, Iannone and Crutchlow all want it back so Michelin will provide it so that they can decide on which direction their development should go and we can get back to one construction.
- Julian Ryder
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With respect to Marquez, he said that he had 'complaints' about the compound (presumably his medium front that got used up at Qatar) but he would like to test the older stiffer tyre.
Keeping the press statements aside, and just examining it logically - if the alternate tyre does suit his style, and he seems confident that it might, wouldn't one expect him to want to test it.
If it were just Rossi he was contesting with for the title, it would be different. Zero-sum game. As long as he can outperform the latter on the existing bike-tyre package he'd be well set for Title #4. But he's up against Vinales who's outperformed him in every pre-season test, every dry practice session, suffered just one fall and won the first race of the season in a dominant fashion. It makes no sense for Marquez to restrict his options (irrespective of Rossi's opinion).
I don't know about the protocol - is it formalized and is there someplace where its documented for public access? Also, is the Safety Commission merely informed of the plans or does it exercise a veto over what Michelin brings to each round?
With respect to the recent round, had the tyres arrived on time on Thursday could the SC still have blocked them from being release? Bridgestone also ran an alternate tyre in parallel to the existing before settling on one based on the reviews (as did Michelin last year IIRC). How is this case different?
It's true that I said we'd decided on the front tyre, but we had spoken before the Losail race - explains Taramasso - Up until then, only Rossi and Iannone had complained about the front tyre and so we'd decided to continue along that path... At the end of the race, other riders told us that were not sure about the choice, I'm referring to Marquez, Crutchlow, Pedrosa and Aleix Espargarò. The situation changed... the riders talked about movement bothering them when going into a lean from an upright position.
Piero Taramasso, Michelin (On Friday)
For example?
Such as?
They wanted to have a stiffer front from winter testing itself. Wanted it for the Qatar race too. Made do with what Michelin provided to the field.
Source, ffs are you trying to prove you know nothing about gp bike racing, not that any proof is necessary of course.
And seeing you are so keen on regurgitating selective press releases 10 years after the event, perhaps you could try the search function on this forum.
Jumkie of all people actually argued in favour of the control tyre and thought it would be an equalising measure. He changed his mind somewhat when the consequences of the control tyre became apparent, which Ducati of course actually predicted. Do you think it is vaguely possible that people, not you of course, actually sometimes learn from knowledge and experience when the theoretical proves not to be real?
In the pre-control tyre era Michelin provided tyres free to some teams, but not all, and Bridgestone provided tyres free to all teams they supplied iirc, and it was rumoured that Dorna subsidised the tyre budget some of the lowlier Michelin satellite teams such as LCR.
They say that given the limited time available, it would have been a distraction.
I suppose that means riders might have to split the focus between preparing for qualifying (& race day) and evaluating the tyre. Those choosing to focus solely on the race and ignore the tyres, might lose the chance to give their input to Michelin.
I see no reason to dispute their reasoning, though I'm unsure if this falls within the Safety Commission's ambit; seems like something for a team managers meeting (though the ruling would still probably be a same).
Just did. Nothing on a 'vote' (maybe I'm using the wrong keywords?) aside from a discussion between you and Jumkie. ->
I still don't know how the 'vote' differed from normal feedback from a rider about his preference of tyre. ->
I believe the sport was in very serious trouble going into 2012 with Ezpeleta locked in a power struggle with the MSMA. He prevailed, they knuckled, and both are better off for it. 5 years later, there appears to have been a strong recovery. No more CRTs. A full grid. Thriving junior classes, expanding feeder series. Expanding season calendar (20 races in 2018) esp. in emerging markets. Viewership is rebounding. Strong attendances at most circuits.
Ducati's competitive again. Suzuki & Aprilia have returned are both rapidly improving; still lack elite riders (but there's lots of emerging potential in Moto2/Moto3). KTM has entered the class and promise to fight for the championship in 3 years (and its not as funny as it might have been a few years ago).
As motorsports go, MotoGP is among healthiest around. Its far from perfect - but wrt to 'consequences' - there are worse things that could have happened, control tyre or not.
This year, Dorna will deliver €46 mil to the racing teams - equally shared b/w factories & satellites. Free tyres too.
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Ask Michelin. They know...but my guess is from the evidence, that they might not tell you.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Sport!!??? It kinda describes a carny show/circus then calls it a sport!
No wonder folk get pissed with the presence of sideshow rossi.
Originally Posted by JKant :
Galbusera would have preferred to test and maybe run a stiffer (or 'more RIGID') medium tyre at Argentina. (As might other riders on the grid.)
What Michelin actually dispatched was a stiffer soft tyre (#70) which was, for all intents and purposes - useless (intended only to generate valuable data for Michelin).-QUOTE
Something must have gone wrong big time because they wanted to have 'more than just the soft tire (#70)' there...for rossi (...and others)
That was talking about Michelin NOT the riders.
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Galbusera would have preferred to test and maybe run a stiffer (or 'more RIGID') medium tyre at Argentina. (As might other riders on the grid.)
What Michelin actually dispatched was a stiffer soft tyre (#70) which was, for all intents and purposes - useless (intended only to generate valuable data for Michelin).-QUOTE
Something must have gone wrong big time because they wanted to have 'more than just the soft tire (#70)' there...for rossi (...and others)
That was talking about Michelin NOT the riders.
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Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
And that was the end of that.
Which is incorrect.
How has this been substantiated? Again, it has since been established that Marc was referring to a harder compound. Actually this should read "hypothetically, some riders from four of the six manufactures could have wanted the new tyre"
"Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa, Iannone and Crutchlow all want it back" - do we have this at source? Since this is purely 'evaluative' surely it would be more accurate to say that of these, some, "would be interested in exploring the possibility of having it back".
These are coinciding press reports ostensibly based upon the same sources from last weekend.
Indeed - which is how I suspect the other riders view the situation - possibly even Valentino. As opposed to "wanting the old tyre back".
I'm sure he is interested in testing it - as you contend, logically, why wouldn't he? However, that is very different to requesting it.
I would suggest that it would at the very least expect to be consulted in respect to any proposed change to tyre construction.
I dunno. Perhaps a lack of transparency? A wish to genuinely evaluate differing products for R&D purposes and to gather feedback across the paddock as opposed to an initial request from one rider and subsequently a small number of others?
Very vague. "The riders talked about". Although this is likely construction related in the main, this could also relate to profile and compound. "The choice" - which was the medium - which in why in Marc's case he has confirmed that he was referring to the compound.
It comes down to whether we choose to put faith solely in a Michelin press statement who are naturally going to defend their stance and the resultant subjectivity of the interpretations in the press. This is why I liked the SportsRider article because it gave both versions, stated what had been established as fact and conceded that the entire nebulous controversy was distorted on both sides by conflicting information and conjecture.
My point is that Michelin could have handled this affair better in respect of riders, press, stakeholders and the public and for some reason, Nicholas Goubert was not entirely consistent/cogent in his explanations.
Joined Jun 2016
642 Posts | 244+
Santa Cruz, Cal
Are you kidding? You pulled a quote from the day before the following was written by him. This was posted before, and the source was questioned. I said Ryder had credibility. You are now going back to BEFORE he had more information. That is just not right. It's like going back before the Nazis took over Germany and saying Hitler is an enthusiastic idealist.
SATURDAY, the 8th Ryder piece.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Good catch...
Leads back to the original contention that a few here have had that JKant prefers to move goalposts around and to selectively use quotes when he thinks they benefit them while disregarding anything else that may run counter to it from the same person he originally quotes like the case is with Julian Ryder as you just proved.
The issue I have with all of these cited quotes of his is that the wording is all quite similar which leads me to believe all of the writers who wrote the MM, CC, DP, and AD as wanting the one tire back, must have gotten it from the same source in GP....a source that everyone has access to. Makes you wonder. My suspicion is it comes directly from Michelin...just a matter of who at Michelin since there's little deviation from writer to writer.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Nice find.
As MichaelM said, I had originally viewed the control tire a good thing for the sport, given that Michelin had a tier system which overwhelmingly favored Rossi. On its face, I thought everyone having the 'same' tire would eliminate the tier system (which it did) and tire manipulation (more on this later) stacked in favor of Valentino, a system so blatantly unfair that replacing it was to me a favorable proposal. I underestimated the manipulative capacity of Donra. It turns out, in hindsight that the control tire ended up being one of a number of rules changes that suppressed Ducati's progress, including engine limits, fuel limits, etc. Specifically in regards to tires, it seems that everyone did get the 'same' tire, but as we are learning from this weekend's smoke filled incidents, the development of tires is not entirely a purely democratic or evenly weighted process--by design! The context of this quote and exchange with Mike was in reference to the Silverstone GP, which if you've ever attended can range from antarctic to rain forest conditions within an hour, in typical fashion, it did present conditions that were tricky; the question being, was the challenge of performance more a tire or rider issue (obviously both, but my point was to say it had more to do with rider's ability to navigate such difficult conditions). My initial reaction to Pedrosa's complaint, as you can see from my post, is the basis of my response, not chalking it up to tires but rather the track conditions and his own performance. You could say my opinion was a reaction to Pedrosa, putting his performance in question not the tires, despite the fact Dani has evolved from being a dipshit to now mildly a garden nome, my take on Stoner was in some respects, part of my analysis. As far as series manipulation goes, I do believe that the general arch of stacking the deck (and manipulating the series for effect, afterall this was the CRT era FFS) is in effect every year (some more than others). Notable since Rossi's return to Yamaha (thanks to Carmelo's short stint as a sport's agent) the manipulation is back on hyperdrive since the 2nd Coming of Michelin--the previous architects of the SNS and tire tier system; as for the case of this specific GP for which you provided my quote, I thought the conditions on the track were the culprit. I will add, that in regards to Stoner's assessment of the Bridgestone front carcass that Mike referenced, ultimately Casey was proven correct and is generally accepted amongst all camps.
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Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
The point is he didn't get it until he went public with his complaint it didn't suit him as was the primary reason for his struggles in testing. I remember a quote he was "very sad". Well we can't have that.
But as has been pointed out Rossi always finds something on race day. Turns out he can ride the soft construction just fine to the podium ahead of Marquez who either struggles on the medium or crashes the hard. The only problem so far is Vinales. As you pointed out he is causing "boring processional F1 style racing". Now where have I heard that before? No matter.
Did you happen to miss the battle for 4th? It was quite entertaining. Maybe you were too busy fixated on a Yamaha with yellow highlights not being able to battle for the win. Yet a harder construction tire may well rectify that problem. Which is the whole story in a nutshell for me. It's no conspiracy where Rossi is involved. It's done openly and for good reason, to broadcast to the huge fan base not to worry, to be calm, the racing will soon improve.
In any case, the story you say is Marquez apparently wanted this harder construction tire following Qatar. So Michelin brought one for him to test, which he then went on to reject any use of. That's a logical process, not. The equivalent would be Casey Stoner being afforded the option of running the hard construction front back in 2012, only for him to slam his fist down on the table in front of his good friend Capirrossi and say 'neine!'. Give me the soft or else. Doesn't make much sense does it?
Marquez wouldn't have used the harder construction soft. It wasn't made for him. Rossi might have. It may have been useful for qualification. Rain was forecast, it may have been useful in a flag to flag. All sorts of possibilities really. But beneficial to Marquez, probably not. Given the option of a harder construction medium or hard compound hard history indicates he will go for the harder compound. Is that also what he asked for? Only Rossi wants the harder construction medium option. Where's that irony pic when you need it?
I wasn't at all meaning to say "I told you so" or malign you in any way Jumkie, and as you know being able to have discussions with you was always one of the major attractions of this forum for me, regardless of whether we agreed or disagreed, my point was that it was entirely possible for Kawasaki to have both endorsed the control tyre before the rule was operational and then found in practice that said rule worked very much against them.
If JKant is going to set the standard of evidence as what he can google and then chooses to post if it suits his argument 5 years or 10 years after events, he may be able to set up a battlefield on which he can be successful, given that something as momentous as the first ever internet page is I am led to believe no longer extant. My schtick on here has always been to form my arguments from my memory and knowledge rather than from google, although I do sometimes check minor details afterwards before posting because exact numbers are not something where my memory is as precise. Googling is not something at which I am very proficient anyway.
My memory of Stoner/Honda tyre thing in 2012 is that Bridgestone came up with the new construction tyre because of complaints about the cold tyre performance of the old tyre and I have certainly never denied that, my argument being that Stoner being disadvantaged was at the least a welcome side benefit. There is a post 2012 season interview with Nakomoto (EDIT Nakamoto, I always spell that wrong) still extant/available where he is in conciliatory mode and looking forward to the coming season with MM as his new lead rider, Honda either having been brought to heel by Dorna (by JKant's recent account) or Honda being less problematic for Dorna because an unpopular rider would no longer be winning world championships for them, which imo had some bearing on the rapprochement.
He is specifically asked about the effect of the mid-season tyre change, and talks about both the front and the rear tyres being changed at a time well into the development of the 2012 Honda, and then the very late weight change, to which he attributes the early season problems of the bike, among which chatter was a major one. I had forgotten that the rear tyre was altered on them as well. What he does specifically and somewhat pointedly say is that it was Loris Capirossi who imposed the new tyre on Honda despite their protests that it would prove insufficiently durable.
What is still very easy to google are the reports of race retirements later that season due to the very tyre in question delaminating and/or chunking, particularly for Rossi but also for other riders, and statements from Bridgestone very similar to those from Michelin in regard to the more recent wet tyre delamination episode, attributing the problem to heat/track conditions and riding styles rather than any problem with the tyre.
Now I think about it what happened was that the old and new tyres continued to be available in the early part of the 2012 season, and then the new tyre became the only choice from Silverstone on, and there are still references to that amid a general paucity of stuff about motogp tyres in 2012 in general. The rider vote towards the end of the process before Silverstone which I clearly remember must not have happened since JKant has been unable to google it.
My computer skills are so poor that I don't even link, but the Nakomoto interview is titled:-
"Honda Motogp Boss Shuhei Nakamoto Sheds Light On Stoner's departure And The Future With Marquez."
motorcycledaily.com/2013 Jan 14 2013
www.motorcycledaily.com/2013/01/hon...toners-departure-and-the-future-with-marquez/
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Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
The safety rep Capirossi rushed in a new soft tire which in turn caused safety issues? Same year Stoner crashed and broke his ankle? Moto vudu where are you we need an irony pic.
All the while we had a 1000 pound gorilla who was once again 'very sad' to be stuck on an uncompetitive bike. Remember in 2012 Ducati had changed to the twin spar and as a result had an overly heavy engine which had never been designed to be suspended. The weight rule was ironically raised.
The hard 2012 tire all the machines were developed around was still good enough for the likes of Lorenzo and Pedrosa to get up to working temp in most situations. (Actually edit it was the 2011 tire that was both hard construction hard compound which was the issue. The 2012 tire was already softer compound, they were all happy with, no complaints, other than one.........) Yet it was very well reported att Ducati had front end issues and no rider could get the front tire up to temp most conspicuously, yep, there's that 1000 pound gorilla again. And a soft tire which was easier to get up to tempt just happened to be rushed out. Really hard to connect those dots. Ah but where's the link to verify, irony, hater.
Remember it's still spoken about in awe from the other riders how Stoner would slam the bike through the sound tire barrier in some sort of mad controlled crash method which was only way he could get the hard tire up to temp when he rode for Ducati. Certainly Rossi couldn't replicate it. Once there, he had to absolutely stay on it to the end for if he relaxed for just one lap the tire temp would drop and he would crash. Little wonder then he was so easy to manipulate through 2008 were he suddenly began crashing. Having done this for 4 years for both the fans and Malborough Ducati only to be accused of all sorts of crap from faking illness obviously caused by huge levels of stress just riding the pig it's no wonder he pissed off fishing instead. Which as I posted once makes me wonder if he hangs around especially for Ducati as a test rider just so he can rub there noses in it. Just thinking back, they might not call him the goat but for me he was God on two wheels.
All the while we had a 1000 pound gorilla who was once again 'very sad' to be stuck on an uncompetitive bike. Remember in 2012 Ducati had changed to the twin spar and as a result had an overly heavy engine which had never been designed to be suspended. The weight rule was ironically raised.
The hard 2012 tire all the machines were developed around was still good enough for the likes of Lorenzo and Pedrosa to get up to working temp in most situations. (Actually edit it was the 2011 tire that was both hard construction hard compound which was the issue. The 2012 tire was already softer compound, they were all happy with, no complaints, other than one.........) Yet it was very well reported att Ducati had front end issues and no rider could get the front tire up to temp most conspicuously, yep, there's that 1000 pound gorilla again. And a soft tire which was easier to get up to tempt just happened to be rushed out. Really hard to connect those dots. Ah but where's the link to verify, irony, hater.
Remember it's still spoken about in awe from the other riders how Stoner would slam the bike through the sound tire barrier in some sort of mad controlled crash method which was only way he could get the hard tire up to temp when he rode for Ducati. Certainly Rossi couldn't replicate it. Once there, he had to absolutely stay on it to the end for if he relaxed for just one lap the tire temp would drop and he would crash. Little wonder then he was so easy to manipulate through 2008 were he suddenly began crashing. Having done this for 4 years for both the fans and Malborough Ducati only to be accused of all sorts of crap from faking illness obviously caused by huge levels of stress just riding the pig it's no wonder he pissed off fishing instead. Which as I posted once makes me wonder if he hangs around especially for Ducati as a test rider just so he can rub there noses in it. Just thinking back, they might not call him the goat but for me he was God on two wheels.
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As always, I was happy for Rossi or anyone else to have "their" tyre, it was the Honda/Stoner tyre being removed with which I had/have a gripe, particularly since their objections to the new tyre were entirely correct.
To engage in an actual conspiracy theory, I always thought hindering Stoner/Honda was more their object than helping Rossi with either the weight change or the tyre changes, it was pretty obvious by then there was no short term solution which would make the Ducati competitive for anyone. Removing the tinfoil hat, I don't doubt there were genuine cold tyre performance concerns for some riders with the old tyre.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
That last bit is interesting. I think there may be something to it. Remember, he said he left Honda in part because of them refusing to let him ride in place of Dani Pedrosa and wanting to ride on a track he never rode. Ducati must have .... a gold brick when they heard that. After all, at that point, no one had won a single race on the Desmosedici in 6 years and it was starting to look like no one ever would again after the dismal start to the 2016 season. But he had no interest in coming back for a Wild Card. Then he shows up at tests, puts in times better than their own riders, including the one they spent so much money to sign, that it caused them to take on Marco Melandri for free because he brought enough in sponsorship dollars to help them survive the economic hit they were taking.
I really think he just enjoys ....... with Ducati and the fans at this point because of how much .... he got from both when he was a regular. In retirement, faster than the entire grid after 5 years away, capable of still going to Phillip Island and wiping the floor by bus lengths, his technical feedback is still perfect, this has to be the ultimate middle finger to the entire sport while raking it money while enjoying his personal life. He lives for spite and this is his spite teasing us.
