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Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

But in the Crash net article that he himself cited...

"According to a Michelin spokesman, Rossi was the only member of the 23-rider MotoGP contingent to express preference for the harder casing at the close of testing."
Right. Overwhelming in terms of numbers preferring it, yes - '90%' of the field liked it acc. to Goubert (I thought you meant overwhelming no. of riders faced chatter.)

Very quickly, the other main revelation aside from Goubert's changing and contrary accounts which have already been discussed, was the fact that the Safety Commission had not been consulted about the addition of the fourth tyre. I believe that this was summarised in the SportsRider piece but not in the original Crashnet feature.
Is that usually done? Not a safety issue strictly speaking (at best only a 'distraction' esp. in light of the delayed arrival). Couldn't have been used in the race but unlike the rear hard, testing it wasn't mandatory.
 
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On the 30.March, only 4 day's after the Qatar race, Galbusera already knew he was getting the 4. (#70) tire...for the next races.

QUOTE:

“...The front tyre for Valentino is too soft and moved a lot,” said Galbusera. “Especially at the end [of the race] he had to ride carefully, as if he was on eggshells.

“In Argentina, [Michelin] should bring a more rigid tyre, so I expect the tyre to work better, and also at Austin. We are curious to see what happens in the next races.”


https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/rossi-s-testing-pace-deficit-gone-after-qatar-887661/
 
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On the 30.March, only 4 day's after the Qatar race, Galbusera already knew he was getting the 4. (#70) tire...for Argentinian AND Austin.
Galbusera was probably hoping for a stiffer medium front. He wasn't going to run the soft. Even for qualifying, a medium would provide better grip over the dirty abrasive Rio Hondo track.

And far from deciding in March, the decision to bring the #70 to Argentina was a late one; it was dispatched well after the main consignment.
 
Perhaps its both. He ran out of grip on the medium front at Qatar half way through the race and could have complained about wanting a harder compound on that tyre while still being uninterested in experimenting with the soft #70 at Argentina.

He told the press in that same interview that a stiffer build would suit his riding style better and he'd be interested in testing it (at a different venue).

Presumably Michelin came away with the same impression after Qatar.

Looking at the data and what they say to us, this new tyre that they bring here and that they cancelled, can be better for my riding style because it is even stronger. If it is a little bit more strong it can be better for the brake points for my style, but the point is the time to change this tyre and in the end we follow the rules. In one hand I want to try because it can be better for my riding style. - Marquez

Similar statement by Crutchlow - "I was more satisfied with what I had last year".


Do you mean that Suzuki are getting a say in tyre development which is why they're sticking around or that they aren't getting a say because they've traditionally been ignored?

They said they were temporarily pulling out of MotoGP because of tough conditions back home and had every intention of returning with a new bike. There was no change in the tyre situation b/w Suzuki's leaving and its return.



Meanwhile at Kawasaki, the sport is just too expensive for their size and they can't afford to invest in exotic technologies that don't translate over to the road bike business.




I guess because Stoner was in an absolute minority, much like Rossi after the pre-season (joined by Iannone at Qatar). Maybe if Stoner's proposal had been seconded by some other riders, Bridgestone might have run a few more tests for more feedback (though I get the sense that its traditionally not as responsive an entity as Michelin).
Selective arguments again. There were very clear statements from both Suzuki and Kawasaki that the control tyre required them to re-design their bike. Most things in the world are multifactorial, except for the introduction of the control tyre of course which was purely to save costs for 2 or 3 satellite teams by your account as I recall from a previous discussion with you.

The 2012 tyre was not rejected pre-season, it was part of the allocation when the 2012 Honda was designed and developed and was removed mid-season by an unprecedented riders' vote engineered by Dorna. I ask again, why was a vote necessary particularly at that time, and why have no similar votes been held subsequently?
 
Right. Overwhelming in terms of numbers preferring it, yes - '90%' of the field liked it acc. to Goubert (I thought you meant overwhelming no. of riders faced chatter.)


Is that usually done? Not a safety issue strictly speaking (at best only a 'distraction' esp. in light of the delayed arrival). Couldn't have been used in the race but unlike the rear hard, testing it wasn't mandatory.

That is rather the point. Why would the riders' safety committee be involved with a tyre that was only there for testing according to you in the first place?

You do seem caught between being a Dorna apologist and a Rossi apologist; perhaps the two are indivisible for you, which is rather the point for most of those you oppose in regard to premier class gp bike racing.
 
JKant - QUOTE: "And far from deciding in March, the decision to bring the #70 to Argentina was a late one; it was dispatched well after the main consignment." -QUOTE


The decision to bring the tire was not a late one as the quote from Galbusera clearly proves.
Why it ended up being dispatched/shipped late is another question.
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My bad, I thought this discussion was about the shitstorm that arrived at the airport along with the #70 tyre.
The blame dodging exercise that MM is putting forth, it may be different but it's not a world away. He is not satisfied with the current tyres. And he asked for something to be done.

What blame dodging was MM involved, unless he is clairvoyant or you are suggesting he planned ahead of time to crash , in which case like your boy Valentino you greatly exceed anyone on here as a conspiracy theorist.
 
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QUOTE:

“...The front tyre for Valentino is too SOFT and moved a lot,” said Galbusera...
“In Argentina, [Michelin] should bring a more RIGID tyre,...

Galbusera was probably hoping for a stiffer medium front. He wasn't going to run the soft. Even for qualifying, a medium would provide better grip over the dirty abrasive Rio Hondo track.


He was talking about the casing NOT the compound (as everybody knows).
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Right. Overwhelming in terms of numbers preferring it, yes - '90%' of the field liked it acc. to Goubert (I thought you meant overwhelming no. of riders faced chatter.)
No, to clarify once more...

"According to a Michelin spokesman, Rossi was the only member of the 23-rider MotoGP contingent to express preference for the harder casing at the close of testing."

I think chatter was identified as an issue - but the point is, following testing, the #70 was overwhelmingly rejected in favour of the #6 carcass. However, one rider expressed a preference for the former. Taramasso had already stated that the aim for 2017 was to provide one casing and one profile for the season, and only change compounds track by track. However, now it seems they are 'evaluating' another construction to run in tandem with the existing one, which it transpires is the mothballed #70 owing to a small group of riders, (we’re still not entirely certain who because of contradictory reporting), and supposedly two factories requesting it after Qatar. Or did they? Márquez has stated that although reappraisal of the #70 may be beneficial to him, he was actually referring to compound. (Apparently that is of no consequence to this debate, because it’s still a different tyre???!!)

The tyre consignment which they stated was never planned to race arrived late due strike action, and throughout this the Safety Commission weren’t advised of the planned introduction of a fourth option which now seems to have been agreed almost a fortnight ago. Is that the accepted protocol that the Safety Commission should be informed of an evaluation of a differing product at a race weekend? – to my knowledge yes, particularly at a circuit that only a year ago witnessed a near catastrophic tyre failure. This has split the paddock into two factions and at the centre of this schism appears to be the usual suspect.

Re Marquez statement, regardless of what words came out he still pointedly asked for a different tyre.

Riders request different compounds all the time which is why I will refer you again to the original Michelin objectives for 2017 which were to target only compound changes from circuit to circuit. Again the statement from Taramasso

“the aim for 2017 was to provide one casing and one profile for the season, and only change compounds track by track.”

Introducing a different construction is an entirely different issue to a rider request for a harder compound option.

The blame dodging exercise that MM is putting forth, it may be different but it's not a world away. He is not satisfied with the current tyres. And he asked for something to be done.

What on earth are you talking about? This discussion has pertained throughout to the requests submitted following Qatar and Michelin’s controversial possible reintroduction of the harder construction #70 in future races. What excuses put forth? We are evaluating the sequence of events prior to the Argentina race weekend.

He was talking about the casing NOT the compound (as everybody knows).
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Astonishingly there are members on here that either do not appear to understand the implications, deem it inconsequential or even such differentiation an inconvenience.
 
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Dani is doing his best to clutch at straws that aren't there now. Only a fool believes that asking for harder rubber is the same as asking for a totally different tyre construction.
 
Dani is doing his best to clutch at straws that aren't there now. Only a fool believes that asking for harder rubber is the same as asking for a totally different tyre construction.

Asking for something different is the same as asking for something different. How you came to the conclusion that I don't know the differences between what was asked for is your downfall.
Fact is many riders are dissatisfied with the current tyre for a variety of reasons.
 
Astonishingly there are members on here that either do not appear to understand the implications, deem it inconsequential or even such differentiation an inconvenience.

They, surprisingly, seem to deem it only inconvenience.
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Selective arguments again. There were very clear statements from both Suzuki and Kawasaki that the control tyre required them to re-design their bike.
- Suzuki left 4 years after the control tyre was announced (just after Honda introduced its revolutionary new seamless gearbox). And to promised to return in 2014 if the spec ECU proposal was dropped, Ezpeleta refused; no change to the spec tyres was ever on the cards.

And you may call the argument selective, but I believe Kawasaki's statement was perfectly clear -

Kawasaki boss backs single tyre rule - Oct 2008
Kawasaki’s MotoGP Technical Director Ichiro Yoda believes the switch to a single tyre rule in 2009 will allow factories to place more focus on machine development.

Yoda reckons competition between Michelin and Bridgestone has been so important that a large portion of testing is dedicated to tyre development.

Yoda said: “With tyre development, this job has too much importance in relation to our race programme. It takes a lot of time and resources for tyre testing.

"So we like the mono-tyre rule from point of view that it reduces costs and reduces testing and will allow us to concentrate on important areas of machine development.”

Yoda also offered his thoughts on Kawasaki’s decision to reject overtures from Michelin recently.

Kawasaki briefly discussed the option of quitting Bridgestone to run Michelin rubber in 2009 in a move that might have preserved tyre competition in MotoGP.


“One question we asked ourselves was ‘are we finding 100 per cent of the potential of Bridgestone tyres?’ The answer is no. If we went to Michelin we would still need to find 100 per cent potential of the tyre.

"It would be more risky to go to Michelin in this situation. We need to get 100 per cent potential from our bike first. Mr Tamba, our president, told us our first priority was the development of the bike, and to do this we needed to stay with Bridgestone. We agreed.”

Most things in the world are multifactorial, except for the introduction of the control tyre of course which was purely to save costs for 2 or 3 satellite teams by your account as I recall from a previous discussion with you.
Save costs period. All teams on the grid get the same amount from Dorna.

The 2012 tyre was not rejected pre-season, it was part of the allocation when the 2012 Honda was designed and developed and was removed mid-season by an unprecedented riders' vote engineered by Dorna. I ask again, why was a vote necessary particularly at that time, and why have no similar votes been held subsequently?
Source?
 
Asking for something different is the same as asking for something different.

Not so much when the outcome is dependent upon who is doing the asking.


Fact is many riders are dissatisfied with the current tyre for a variety of reasons.

Fact is only one rider originally expressed a preference for the #70 carcass during pre -season testing which is consequently now bizarrely on the verge of reintroduction as a panacea to these problems - in spite of the 'variety of reasons' behind this dissatisfaction.
 
Asking for something different is the same as asking for something different. How you came to the conclusion that I don't know the differences between what was asked for is your downfall.
Fact is many riders are dissatisfied with the current tyre for a variety of reasons.

It isn't when Michelin have stated that compounds may change but the construction would be the same. It's not the same thing.
 
- Suzuki left 4 years after the control tyre was announced (just after Honda introduced its revolutionary new seamless gearbox). And to promised to return in 2014 if the spec ECU proposal was dropped, Ezpeleta refused; no change to the spec tyres was ever on the cards.

And you may call the argument selective, but I believe Kawasaki's statement was perfectly clear -

Kawasaki boss backs single tyre rule - Oct 2008



Save costs period. All teams on the grid get the same amount from Dorna.


Source?
Pedrosa angry at tyre change | MotoGP 0
 
The decision to bring the tire was not a late one as the quote from Galbusera clearly proves.
Why it ended up being dispatched/shipped late is another question.
No its the same question. If they'd decided to field them at Argentina back in March, they had ample lead time to prepare, and it would have arrived at the same time in the same consignment as rest of the Michelins.

If you have an alternative hypothesis, please share.

QUOTE:

“...The front tyre for Valentino is too SOFT and moved a lot,” said Galbusera...
“In Argentina, [Michelin] should bring a more RIGID tyre,...

He was talking about the casing NOT the compound (as everybody knows)
I'm also talking about the casing/carcass NOT the compound.

Galbusera would have preferred to test and maybe run a stiffer (or 'more RIGID') medium tyre at Argentina. (As might other riders on the grid.)

What Michelin actually dispatched was a stiffer soft tyre (#70) which was, for all intents and purposes - useless (intended only to generate valuable data for Michelin).
 
The FUNNY part is that after whinging about the lack of a stiffer casing for the front tire...TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS HE WAS HAVING...it turned out to have mostly been fixed by his team, on the bike...

So he didn't even need the stiffer casing tire after all.
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rossi:

Explaining his lack of pace on Thursday, Rossi admitted he was struggling with the feeling of on Michelin’s 2017 tyres, which have a different profile and a larger contact patch than the 2016 rubber on which Rossi excelled.

“What I suffer from is, more than the bike, the front tyre from Michelin,” said Rossi. “Because they follow a way to the softer side, especially with the casing and also the rubber.

“I lose feeling, I have a lot of movement on [corner] entry, and I can’t carry enough speed.

"But at the end of practice we found something better that can help.

Rossi credited the turnaround to changes his Yamaha team made in Friday practice, which he believes saved what had been a “critical” situation.


Galbusera said that the Rossi camp had been “worried” about the Qatar race on the evidence of the 38-year-old’s practice showings, but was relieved to find the gap to the frontrunners was much smaller than expected

“Something changed from Thursday to Friday, because on Thursday we still had the same problem I had during all the tests and it was very frustrating.

“But Friday was better. I continued to go quite slowly, but I started to improve. From that moment I was quite optimistic about finishing in the first five.
“On Saturday we did nothing and the [Sunday race] warm-up was very difficult, I suffered very much in the high temperature.

“These conditions for the race were better for me. We changed the bike another time for the race and I felt good. I saw Maverick for all of the race. That never happened in all the tests.”
 
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