Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

moto vudu said:

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irony
ˈʌɪrəni/
noun
the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
"‘Don't go overboard with the gratitude,’ he rejoined with heavy irony"
synonyms: sarcasm, sardonicism, dryness, causticity, sharpness, acerbity, acid, bitterness, trenchancy, mordancy, cynicism; More
a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.
plural noun: ironies
"the irony is that I thought he could help me"
synonyms: paradox, paradoxical nature, incongruity, incongruousness, peculiarity
"the irony of the situation hit her"
a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
noun: dramatic irony; plural noun: tragic irony


Anyhow, thanks Vudu - I should have used that in my reply to JKant but this is just as useful...

Arrabbiata1 said:

You mean the #70 was overwhelmingly rejected during testing due to chatter problems.

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It was rejected because of chatter problems (acc. to Goubert & Emmett) but I don't know about the rejection being 'overwhelming'. Bit unlikely that the whole field suffered chatter.

So you are able to say with 100% certainty that Valentino Rossi did not request the reintroduction of the stiffer construction tyre?

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I'm 100% certain that Rossi did request a stiffer construction in winter testing. But the salient point is that he didn't get it. Not at Qatar and not at Argentina (where Michelin only planned to bring a stiff soft for data gathering).

As I understand it, the ‘other factories’ were discussing harder compound as opposed to carcass. Could you provide a link that suggests otherwise? Thanks.

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Stiffer casing according to Taramasso.

Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one. “I was more satisfied with what I had last year,” Crutchlow said on Thursday, referencing his feeling with Michelin's '17 front. - Crash.net

If say Reading, Crutchlow, Iannone and Espargaro requested re-evaluation of the #70 construction at Argentina, in your opinion, would Michelin have obliged given the appreciable expense and logistical difficulties?

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If it were just Redding, Crutchlow and say.. Petrucci & Zarco, then probably no.

But Iannone & Espargaro are leading development for their respective factories and I'd expect their opinion to carry more weight.

If it were say... Redding, Crutchlow, Iannone, Espargaro, Petrucci, Bautista & Zarco (four factories, six riders, zero superstars), I'd opine - yes.

For all the flubs last season, I was generally impressed by Michelin's proactive attitude. They'd want to stabilize production but I don't think they'll cut corners even if it costs a bit more. And it is just a bit more; shipping an additional what.. 50 odd soft tyres (?) for testing @ 2/rider.

How do you know that at this point it is just examination? How have you established that the stiffer carcass isn't already earmarked for COTA under the guise of a different compound? Are you privy to Michelin's operational strategy? Personally, I think it unlikely - but you know as much as I do. You post is pure supposition.

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I think we're getting into semantics but okay, I'll rephrase then.

In my opinion, its highly likely that all this is just examination at this point and Michelin are still assessing their options and studying the results from the last two rounds.

The only new/unforeseen development after the Qatar & Argentina is that the Hondas appear to be struggling (possibly Suzukis too) and fears of Rossi's demise seem to have been greatly exaggerated.

JKant said:

In my opinion,

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Thank you. That's all.

"Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one."

Interesting, that this CrashNet article is still being cited as exhibit A in spite of several major revelations to the contrary.

This is interesting though...

"The two front constructions will also be available at the next race in Austin."

Purely for "evaluation" purposes of course

Arrabbiata1 said:

"Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one."

Interesting, that this CrashNet article is still being cited as exhibit A in spite of several major revelations to the contrary.

This is interesting though...

"The two front constructions will also be available at the next race in Austin."

Purely for "evaluation" purposes of course

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The Crash piece was ......... Came out way too quickly and was aimed at trying to move the spotlight off of Rossi.

Arrabbiata1 said:

"Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one."

Interesting, that this CrashNet article is still being cited as exhibit A in spite of several major revelations to the contrary.

This is interesting though...

"The two front constructions will also be available at the next race in Austin."

Purely for "evaluation" purposes of course

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Can you post links to those please.

Daniboy said:

Can you post links to those please.

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"Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one."

Marc has stated that he post Qatar race comments concerned compounds not carcass - however, I completely concede that this means nothing if I cannot provide a quote. I will endeavour to do this and you are absolutely right to request it, but coverage of the biggest game in our 133 year history is about to commence. I will oblige tomorrow.

“When I spoke with Michelin at the start of the season about my problem with the front, they said that I was the only one! Maybe if they bring this tyre, some other riders will have my feeling."

Incidentally -

JKant said:

It was rejected because of chatter problems (acc. to Goubert & Emmett) but I don't know about the rejection being 'overwhelming'.

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But in the Crash net article that he himself cited...

"According to a Michelin spokesman, Rossi was the only member of the 23-rider MotoGP contingent to express preference for the harder casing at the close of testing."

Very quickly, the other main revelation aside from Goubert's changing and contrary accounts which have already been discussed, was the fact that the Safety Commission had not been consulted about the addition of the fourth tyre. I believe that this was summarised in the SportsRider piece but not in the original Crashnet feature.

I do have quite a good long term memory and recall reading this article at the close of last season from BSN...admittedly this is prior to testing, but nonetheless, it does raise a wry smile DB...

Michelin target ?only compound changes? for MotoGP 2017 - Bikesport News

Arrabbiata1 said:

"Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one."

Marc has stated that he post Qatar race comments concerned compounds not carcass - however, I completely concede that this means nothing if I cannot provide a quote. I will endeavour to do this and you are absolutely right to request it, but coverage of the biggest game in our 133 year history is about to commence. I will oblige tomorrow.

“When I spoke with Michelin at the start of the season about my problem with the front, they said that I was the only one! Maybe if they bring this tyre, some other riders will have my feeling."

Incidentally -



But in the Crash net article that he himself cited...

"According to a Michelin spokesman, Rossi was the only member of the 23-rider MotoGP contingent to express preference for the harder casing at the close of testing."

Very quickly, the other main revelation aside from Goubert's changing and contrary accounts which have already been discussed, was the fact that the Safety Commission had not been consulted about the addition of the fourth tyre. I believe that this was summarised in the SportsRider piece but not in the original Crashnet feature.

I do have quite a good long term memory and recall reading this article at the close of last season from BSN...admittedly this is prior to testing, but nonetheless, it does raise a wry smile DB...

Michelin target ?only compound changes? for MotoGP 2017 - Bikesport News

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Many companies give themselves unachievable targets, Michelin are no different, particularly the one given in the BSN article. As testing is proving quite irrelevant to tyre makers, it seems pointless to say such things .

The source for Marquezs comments about the riders asking for harder compound rubber not a different carcass is the post qualifying presser.

Marc's statement about 'harder compound vs carcass...

MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Marquez, Crutchlow back tyre withdrawal call


..., but I complain about the compound of the tyre, not about the profile of the tyre...

JKant said:

It was rejected because of chatter problems (acc. to Goubert & Emmett) but I don't know about the rejection being 'overwhelming'. Bit unlikely that the whole field suffered chatter.


I'm 100% certain that Rossi did request a stiffer construction in winter testing. But the salient point is that he didn't get it. Not at Qatar and not at Argentina (where Michelin only planned to bring a stiff soft for data gathering).


Stiffer casing according to Taramasso.

Taramasso confirmed Andrea Iannone and the Honda trio of Marc Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow joined Rossi in requesting that the stiffer casing be brought to Argentina to clarify whether the 2017 decision was the correct one. “I was more satisfied with what I had last year,” Crutchlow said on Thursday, referencing his feeling with Michelin's '17 front. - Crash.net


If it were just Redding, Crutchlow and say.. Petrucci & Zarco, then probably no.

But Iannone & Espargaro are leading development for their respective factories and I'd expect their opinion to carry more weight.

If it were say... Redding, Crutchlow, Iannone, Espargaro, Petrucci, Bautista & Zarco (four factories, six riders, zero superstars), I'd opine - yes.

For all the flubs last season, I was generally impressed by Michelin's proactive attitude. They'd want to stabilize production but I don't think they'll cut corners even if it costs a bit more. And it is just a bit more; shipping an additional what.. 50 odd soft tyres (?) for testing @ 2/rider.


I think we're getting into semantics but okay, I'll rephrase then.

In my opinion, its highly likely that all this is just examination at this point and Michelin are still assessing their options and studying the results from the last two rounds.

The only new/unforeseen development after the Qatar & Argentina is that the Hondas appear to be struggling (possibly Suzukis too) and fears of Rossi's demise seem to have been greatly exaggerated.

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I do take the point that yours and Arrabb's recent discussion means Rossi didn't get the tyre he preferred in the first place.

Again however you selectively address only what suits your line of argument. We have a direct quote from Marquez that he didn't ask for the harder carcass tyre despite Michelin saying he did, and nor apparently did Crutchlow, one of the others cited by Michelin given he was one of the 13 at the safety committee meeting. Why was the tyre an issue for the safety committee if it was only brought for testing purposes anyway?

You will have to colour me sceptical about your theorising in regard to Iannone as lead Suzuki rider getting a tyre which suited him given Suzuki cited the lack of a suitable tyre as a reason for their temporary withdrawal and Kawasaki for their permanent withdrawal, and Ducati's similar complaints for several years.

And again, why couldn't that existing tyre stay in the allocation in 2012?

Arrabbiata1 said:

irony
ˈʌɪrəni/
noun
the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
"‘Don't go overboard with the gratitude,’ he rejoined with heavy irony"
synonyms: sarcasm, sardonicism, dryness, causticity, sharpness, acerbity, acid, bitterness, trenchancy, mordancy, cynicism; More
a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.
plural noun: ironies
"the irony is that I thought he could help me"
synonyms: paradox, paradoxical nature, incongruity, incongruousness, peculiarity
"the irony of the situation hit her"
a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
noun: dramatic irony; plural noun: tragic irony


Anyhow, thanks Vudu - I should have used that in my reply to JKant but this is just as useful...

View attachment 12446

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The original meaning from Greek tragedy would seem the relevant one in this context.

,

almoto said:

Marc's statement about 'harder compound vs carcass...

MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Marquez, Crutchlow back tyre withdrawal call


..., but I complain about the compound of the tyre, not about the profile of the tyre...

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exactly. that debunked Goubert's accusation.

every journos that saying there was no conspiracy, they never gave the explanation on MM's interview. Trying too hard to say there was no conspiracy, that's why they're crap.

HelloMars said:

exactly. that debunked Goubert's accusation.

every journos that saying there was no conspiracy, they never gave the explanation on MM's interview. Trying too hard to say there was no conspiracy, that's why they're crap.

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I did notice that when Marquezs interview was quoted by some that when he actually spoke about wanting the different compound not carcass or profile it was conveniently omitted.

Re Marquez statement, regardless of what words came out he still pointedly asked for a different tyre.

Daniboy said:

Re Marquez statement, regardless of what words came out he still pointedly asked for a different tyre.

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His statement that he didn't ask for the tyre in question could also be construed as rather pointed, however.

michaelm said:

I do take the point that yours and Arrabb's recent discussion means Rossi didn't get the tyre he preferred in the first place.

Again however you selectively address only what suits your line of argument. We have a direct quote from Marquez that he didn't ask for the harder carcass tyre despite Michelin saying he did, and nor apparently did Crutchlow, one of the others cited by Michelin given he was one of the 13 at the safety committee meeting. Why was the tyre an issue for the safety committee if it was only brought for testing purposes anyway?

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Perhaps its both. He ran out of grip on the medium front at Qatar half way through the race and could have complained about wanting a harder compound on that tyre while still being uninterested in experimenting with the soft #70 at Argentina.

He told the press in that same interview that a stiffer build would suit his riding style better and he'd be interested in testing it (at a different venue).

Presumably Michelin came away with the same impression after Qatar.

Looking at the data and what they say to us, this new tyre that they bring here and that they cancelled, can be better for my riding style because it is even stronger. If it is a little bit more strong it can be better for the brake points for my style, but the point is the time to change this tyre and in the end we follow the rules. In one hand I want to try because it can be better for my riding style. - Marquez

Similar statement by Crutchlow - "I was more satisfied with what I had last year".

You will have to colour me sceptical about your theorising in regard to Iannone as lead Suzuki rider getting a tyre which suited him given Suzuki cited the lack of a suitable tyre as a reason for their temporary withdrawal and Kawasaki for their permanent withdrawal, and Ducati's similar complaints for several years.

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Do you mean that Suzuki are getting a say in tyre development which is why they're sticking around or that they aren't getting a say because they've traditionally been ignored?

They said they were temporarily pulling out of MotoGP because of tough conditions back home and had every intention of returning with a new bike. There was no change in the tyre situation b/w Suzuki's leaving and its return.

"Suzuki Motor Corporation has decided to suspend temporarily its participation in FIM Road Racing Grand Prix MotoGP from 2012.

"This suspension is to cope with tough circumstances mainly caused by the prolonged recession in developed countries, a historical appreciation of Japanese yen and repeated natural disasters.

"Having an eye to returning to MotoGP in 2014, Suzuki will now focus on developing a competitive new racing machine for that class.

- Nov 2011

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Meanwhile at Kawasaki, the sport is just too expensive for their size and they can't afford to invest in exotic technologies that don't translate over to the road bike business.

"The necessary investment would not allow us [to compete]," Kawasaki World Superbike boss Ichiro Yoda told Riders Mag.

"In the end, you have to sell motorcycles, and other brands sell several million more than us. For them, MotoGP is an investment equivalent to one percent of their sales."

"If we were to return, several things would have to change," he said. "At present, the rules are very restrictive. We could not compete with a production-derived motorcycle, for example.

"There are technological solutions that have been adopted by other manufacturers, such as seamless shift gearboxes, that we would never use on our road bikes. It's too expensive, it wouldn't be worth it.

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And again, why couldn't that existing tyre stay in the allocation in 2012?

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I guess because Stoner was in an absolute minority, much like Rossi after the pre-season (joined by Iannone at Qatar). Maybe if Stoner's proposal had been seconded by some other riders, Bridgestone might have run a few more tests for more feedback (though I get the sense that its traditionally not as responsive an entity as Michelin).

Daniboy said:

Many companies give themselves unachievable targets, Michelin are no different, particularly the one given in the BSN article. As testing is proving quite irrelevant to tyre makers, it seems pointless to say such things .

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Many companies that do so do not prematurely declare it to the press - and as you say, prior to testing. To do so indicates that they were announcing a strategy that had been agreed for 2017. Clearly, a powerful external force redirected that aim. Such a U-turn, again is not uncommon, particularly where vested interests are involved.

Daniboy said:

Re Marquez statement, regardless of what words came out he still pointedly asked for a different tyre.

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???? But this discussion pertains to the reintroduction of a stiffer construction which is completely different. Further, according to Goubert that another rider had requested when in fact he hadn't. What's your point?

Arrabbiata1 said:

Many companies that do so do not prematurely declare it to the press - and as you say, prior to testing. To do so indicates that they were announcing a strategy that had been agreed for 2017. Clearly, a powerful external force redirected that aim. Such a U-turn, again is not uncommon, particularly where vested interests are involved.



???? But this discussion pertains to the reintroduction of a stiffer construction which is completely different. Further, according to Goubert that another rider had requested when in fact he hadn't. What's your point?

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My bad, I thought this discussion was about the shitstorm that arrived at the airport along with the #70 tyre.
The blame dodging exercise that MM is putting forth, it may be different but it's not a world away. He is not satisfied with the current tyres. And he asked for something to be done.