Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

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The story of this weekend, is the story of the last 15 years--Rossi’s influence aligned with Dorna's. This fourth tire debacle is one in a long list of examples, the deck is stacked folks. The few riders who've stood up to rebuff it this time will find that the Rossicentric league will not be deterred. All that's happened is that Rossi's spec tire will simply be incorporated into the "three choices", with the effect of riders realistically limited to two plus Rossi's tire. We are talking about the front, because the rear tire that is designed to spin in the latter stages is Rossi's rear spec! Dorna is making its push, Carmelocalm is aware time is running out for the next artificial title. Hence why the rigging has become more brazen. Carmelo Clause, sport's agent, intends to make good. Michelin are more than willing partners since they were brought into the series, they know why they replaced Bridgestone.
 
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David Emmett on the tyre issue -

2017 Argentina Saturday Round Up

Tinfoil at the ready

If riders are the most important factor in motorcycle racing, then tires run them a very close second. The combination of the two is almost magical, each rider requiring a special mixture of properties from a tire to get the most from their riding style. The problem with having a single official tire supplier is that such tailored tires become an impossibility. And when a single tire design is used, accusations of favoring one rider over another are never far behind.

Another tire conspiracy theory achieved major proportions in Argentina. Although to call it a single tire conspiracy is to misunderstand how conspiracies work. Each faction had their own particular explanation for the Mystery of the Additional Front Tire, all of which proved to be wildly inaccurate, exactly as you might expect.

What are the facts? A brief chronology:

- When the 2016 title was settled so early, Michelin proposed to the teams that they bring the new profile front tire for 2017 to Valencia, for everyone to try. With the championship not at stake, there would be more time for experimentation, and this would give Michelin a head start on their 2017 development.

- The new profile was a big hit at Valencia, and so Michelin went ahead with this design. But there were also several reports of chatter, especially once the tires were being tested after the winter break. The new profile was slightly stiffer than the 2016 tire, so Michelin changed the carcass of the tire to make it less stiff, which helped cure the chatter.

- The Phillip Island and Qatar tests were not entirely conclusive, but for all but a handful of riders – Valentino Rossi, Andrea Iannone, and to a lesser extent Alvaro Bautista – it seemed to work well. Tire development with a single tire is led by the majority, so Michelin started working on the basis of the less stiff tire.

- At the Qatar race, a number of riders changed their minds. This is hardly surprising: racing is different to testing. Riders are pushing harder, and also taking more risk and braking deeper when overtaking. The front tire takes a bit more punishment, and that stressed it too much, especially for Honda riders such as Márquez, Pedrosa, and Crutchlow.

- In response to that, Michelin decided to test the Valencia tire once again, and decided to bring it to Argentina. But they did not have time to build a custom race tire, and only had the soft compound tires from previous tests. That tire was too soft to race on, but it could be used in the cooler conditions of the morning, and that would give enough feedback for Michelin to start making a decision about the stiffness of carcass to use.

- Then, two things happened. Strikes in Argentina delayed the delivery of the new spec tires – shipped separately, after a late decision – to the track. They arrived on Friday evening, too late to be used for practice. The Saturday weather forecast was for rain, and so the chance of the tires being tested and used was slim to nonexistent.

- As a result of all this, the fourteen riders who attended the Safety Commission on Friday evening decided not to allow the extra tire to be used. It was not a tire they would race. It was not a necessity forced on them in the name of safety. It would only increase the confusion over tires (three fronts and three rears made it hard enough to choose), turning the weekend into "a tire test" to use the words of Marc Márquez.

- Valentino Rossi did not attend the Safety Commission, preferring to spend his time with his crew in a technical debrief, trying to find solutions for the problem he is having with the front end of the Yamaha. Consequently, he had no say in the decision on the tire.

Nutters Ahoy!

Put all of these facts together, and the fans – and several prominent journalists, especially in Italy – came up with some seriously tinfoily conspiracy theories. The theories fell broadly into two camps:

1. Dorna had forced Michelin into bringing a special tire for Valentino Rossi. If it hadn't been for Rossi, the tire would never even be under consideration.

2. The "Andorra Mafia" of Marc Márquez and the Espargaro brothers bullied the Safety Commission into banning the use of the special front tire, because they are afraid of what Valentino Rossi could do on it in the race.

Both theories are nonsense, of course. Michelin only decided to bring the additional tires when the Honda riders added their voices to Rossi and Iannone after Qatar. If riders from Honda (Pedrosa, Márquez, Crutchlow) joined Yamaha (Rossi), Suzuki (Iannone) and Ducati (Bautista) in wanting the new tire, that meant that four of the six manufacturers wanted the new tire. It is worth testing, but if it is to be tested, it needs to be done properly.

And it wasn't the "Andorra Mafia" which banned the use of the additional tire. The supporters of this theory claim that Jorge Lorenzo and Andrea Iannone said they had already tried the tire on Friday. That is impossible, as the tire wasn't at the track. What is possible is that both Lorenzo and Iannone were confused. The two men are both blisteringly fast, and have outstanding feel for a bike, but neither is renowned for their deep understanding of technical details. They can tell you exactly what works or what doesn't, but they are not to be trusted in explaining exactly what was used and why it worked.

You want to know the truth? You can't handle the truth!

Occam's Razor suggests that the truth is to be found in the bare facts: with little dry practice time on the cards, there was no point in trying a tire which was never going to be used. To ensure it was safe to be used, all of the riders would have to put a certain number of laps on it, and the riders and teams had far better things to be doing with their time than using a tire which will not be raced.

Michelin will now bring the test to a later event. Not Austin, as that circuit is too demanding on the tires. The most likely scenario is that the new spec tire will get a proper run out at the post-race test at Jerez. With eight hours of track time, and usually decent conditions, the riders can put the tire through its paces properly and provide real feedback without cutting in to valuable set up time.

That won't convince the conspiracy theorists, of course. But then again, conspiracy theorists don't want to be convinced, they want to have their biases confirmed. Unfortunately for them, the world doesn't work like that.
 
Kropotkin Spicer. It's not a conspiracy!

That's fast work. Stayed up all night to tell us the dots shouldn't be connected. The irony being, he has connected the dots to produce his own theory passed off as fact. As if that wasn't enough, that last paragraph betrays much, Kropo, award winning 'blogger' it appears, is the only person in the world who can guide us through fact and fiction. This, the guy who sat through countless press conferences and never took Rossi to task for MotoGP's greatest CONSPIRACY of all time!

Perhaps Kropo should spend a bit more time examining why Michelin needed to introduce a stiffer carcass because..get this: the 2016 title "ended too soon"...apparently a problem (or perhaps ended too soon for Rossi, which is apparently an issue to be addressed so immediately that hey, let's throw in a 4th tire choice and break with protocol, maybe nobody will notice).
 
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David Emmett on the tyre issue -

2017 Argentina Saturday Round Up
David Emmett more credible than Dean from Superbike planet? What an outrageous suggestion.

If you have finally started reading his articles you may stand a chance of being better informed. He is the closest thing to an honest journalist in the sport imo, and did at one stage post on this forum semi-regularly, mostly for his own amusement I suspect and to let his hair down a little since he can't say anything too controversial on his own site.

Notwithstanding all this, he still has to make a living, and making anti-Rossi speculations based on flimsy evidence is not reputable journalism nor likely conducive to a profitable enterprise in anything involved with GP bike racing. He has also somewhat courageously imo held positions which reflect negatively on Rossi at times, such as that Rossi's statements in the pre-Sepang 2015 press conference and behaviour in the following race could only be explained by 2 bouts of temporary insanity, which as opposed to this piece can't possibly be correct of course.

Even if you take this article as completely factual the possibility exists that Rossi was the most influential among those who requested the tyre and MM the most influential in the safety committee meeting particularly in Rossi's absence, and we still have a direct quote from MM at variance with what Michelin said. It also remains the case that when Ducati and Stoner requested the return of a 2007 tyre in 2008 they were rebuffed, as were Honda and the 2 HRC riders in 2012 when they requested similarly that a hard carcass tyre be kept along with a new soft carcass tyre, with Stoner even correctly predicting contemporaneously that the new tyre would prove insufficiently durable.
 
Rossi was the only quote I saw from preseason and Qatar whinging about the tire 'everyone else likes'. Then there is a new tire. Really hard to connect those dots. Occam's razor, the most obvious answer is by probability most often correct? The most obvious answer is "pedrosa" asked for a harder tire. You know, since he is such a fat heavy ass. Ok if any journo wants to peddle that .... good luck.

What fascinates me by this championship is that both Rossi and Carmelo are boxed in. Vinales totally dominates preseason. Rossi cries. They make the tire harder. Marquez smiles. Talk about between a rock and a hard place eh Valentino. If only they gave you back the V5, then you could show me all who's the boss.
 
Kropotkin Spicer. It's not a conspiracy!

That's fast work. Stayed up all night to tell us the dots shouldn't be connected. The irony being, he has connected the dots to produce his own theory passed off as fact. As if that wasn't enough, that last paragraph betrays much, Kropo, award winning 'blogger' it appears, is the only person in the world who can guide us through fact and fiction. This, the guy who sat through countless press conferences and never took Rossi to task for MotoGP's greatest CONSPIRACY of all time!

Perhaps Kropo should spend a bit more time examining why Michelin needed to introduce a stiffer carcass because..get this: the 2016 title "ended too soon"...apparently a problem (or perhaps ended too soon for Rossi, which is apparently an issue to be addressed so immediately that hey, let's throw in a 4th tire choice and break with protocol, maybe nobody will notice).

This is where we are in complete agreement Jumkie. It is absurd for Rossi- boppers to be outraged by "conspiracy theories" raised by a few people on here in regard to Rossi, given that their boy has raised the biggest conspiracy theory of all time in GP bike racing to the world press at large absent any evidence whatsoever, for which he now apparently receives a free pass including from David Emmett.
 
Oh and by the way can I just say thank .... for Vinales. Thankyou thankyou thankyou times 1000. And thankyou Zarco and Folger. Another thankyou times 1000. It warms my heart to see this new blood on Yamaha's showing what they and the bike is capable of. I dont even miss Loreonzo much. Imagine without this Youngblood peeps would be saying the Yamaha is crap, based on that guy. I really enjoyed him complaining they were all faster than him. And yet what was 90% of the MotoGP coverage based on? The yellow fans? What no other rider has any other fans worthy of air time? Jeez Carmelocalm, panic stations. Rush out those SNS oh .... did we ban them no make that pedrosa night specials.
 
Not just Kropo reporting the facts.

Marc Marquez and Cal Crutchlow said withdrawing a fourth Michelin front tyre in Argentina this weekend was the only decision that could be made.

A 2016-style stiffer front was to be offered as a fourth option, but a general strike in Argentina meant the test tyre, which was to be available only with soft compound rubber, did not arrive in time for Friday practice.

Suzuki's Andrea Iannone plus the Honda trio of Marquez, Dani Pedrosa and Crutchlow had joined Yamaha's Valentino Rossi in requesting a return to the older, stiffer carcass combined with the new 2017 tyre profile. However, with little time to test the tyre, it was withdrawn on Saturday, leaving the original three front options.

Crutchlow said: “The situation is that when we arrived here we had three front tyres to use; one didn't arrive until today and we were supposed to have four, but now we have three again. Nothing else to say.”


However, the British rider later added: “I think the situation is clear. A lot of riders complained and said it was really soft, the front tyre this year, and also in Qatar. But to bring it in this weekend was not feasible for us as riders and for the organisation, for arriving on Saturday morning.

“I think in the end it was probably the correct decision and with today's weather, when would we ever try it? I don't know if anyone would have tried in the morning warm-up tomorrow and then said 'we race'. In the end I think it's better to bring to another track or something,” he added.

“But yes, there were some riders who said the front tyre was feeling soft compared to what we had last year. Hopefully we can test something different for the future.”

World champion Marquez said he felt there wasn't enough time to test the front tyre and suggested a proper test was needed later in the season.

“The thing was that the rules say normally this year we will have three front tyres and three rear tyres. We cannot have more, or less, but for some reason Michelin bring this extra tyre in the front. Then we speak a little bit in the Safety Commission and as why we have this tyre and even they didn't know.

“Loris [Capirossi] said he didn't know and they didn't have any information,” Marquez said. “Of the 13 riders on Safety Commission nobody of these riders asked for a different tyre, so for that reason I think it is better to try in a proper test, like after Jerez or something like this.”

Asked if the decision was made based on safety or from a technical standpoint, Marquez said: “Both. In the end, it's like last year in speaking with the Safety Commission we arrived at the point that we would have three tyres for the front and rear per race. This was the main item and three tyres is enough. We cannot have more tyres because then it will be like a tyre test during the weekend. There was no need for safety or for nothing to use this new tyre with a different character and everybody was agreed yesterday.

“Maybe inside these eight riders [who asked for the older stiffer carcass with the 2017 profile], I can be there, but I complain about the compound of the tyre, not about the profile of the tyre and a different tyre. Looking at the data and what they say to us, this new tyre that they bring here and that they cancelled, can be better for my riding style because it is even stronger.

“If it is a little bit more strong it can be better for the brake points for my style, but the point is the time to change this tyre and in the end we follow the rules. In one hand I want to try because it can be better for my riding style.”

Read more at MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Marquez, Crutchlow back tyre withdrawal call
 
Don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy

rossiuccio.jpg
 
Haha...Kropo didn't waste any time getting a spirited defense out of the whole thing. I generally like what Kropo writes, but he's long been prone to being an apologist/fence straddler on the subject of Rossi. He came closer to anyone in the wake of Sepang 2015 to criticizing Rossi rightfully so, but he also went out of his way to shift blame onto MM for the whole thing based on nothing more than the flimsy unproven allegations of Mike Webb/Race Direction. When it comes to divining conspiracy theories, he's never really been a good one for that since he gave plenty of weight to Rossi's conspiracy theory about Sepang that was ultimately walked back. I'm still waiting for Kropo's apology for carrying that further than it ever should have been.

Remember this line?

Márquez showed himself up as a petty man, driven by spite to try to prevent another rider from having something he could not.

Armchair psychology analysis masquerading as fact from Kropo. Laughable the way Kropo talks about how the world supposedly operates when he has prostrated himself as nothing more than a whore for his readers who are willing to pay his fee.
 
Don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy

"I always tell Vale that what happened at the end of last year cannot be forgotten. Personally I won't forget until I die because I cannot forget it. It is something that you have to live with it. With this disgust. With this rage."

Alessio 'Uccio' Salucci October 2016.
 
Motogpforum 101

  • When your conspiracy is proven false, attempt to save face by going back 2 years and claiming Uccio is an even bigger conspiracy theorist so the subject should be changed to him.
 
I was texting with a member here last night, and we were discussing about how unbelievable it is that a couple of members here post here solely because they are so bothered by the viewpoints some of us hold.

Imagine being so threatened by what gets discussed here, that your entire existence here is based on furiously trying to contradict everything here. And imagine saying you aren't bothered by anyone here, yet never miss an opportunity to mention myself and other posters showing just how obsessed you are with us. One such poster's entire existence revolves around me.

The dozens upon dozens of forums that exist out there which are sympathetic to pro-Rossi supporters and their various viewpoints, yet this backwater forum is where these posters go to because their tribal glory-hunting is not accepted here.

Incredible isn't it?

Why, that would be like moving to a town that is not sympathetic to whatever political views you hold, and then being upset that the town at large votes opposite of what you vote and believe in. You don't have any grounds to be upset since you knowingly come to a place that doesn't share your views/opinions.
 
You wasted no time in attempting to defend JPS & his cronies who currently look like fools because they pushed their "4th tire conspiracy" so hard. You can't defend them and not align yourself with them, so it's your conspiracy as well.

What astonishingly flawed logic as per usual. No different to the skewed reasoning behind your blanket 'hater' inquisition. So by not commenting on something I still am guilty by association?

"You wasted no time in attempting to defend JPS & his cronies who currently look like fools because they pushed their "4th tire conspiracy" so hard."

Where? I haven't expressed an opinion about the proposed inclusion of the stiffer construction hard front and I certainly haven't as you say 'defended' anyone that has. I am unable to pass opinion because I don't believe that I/we/you/them are fully privy to all the details and circumstances. My post was merely directed at the astonishingly asinine cliche "don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy" As Micheal has repeatedly pointed out, a tad ironic given the events of October and November 2015. That's all.

I want Rossi to be competitive today and up at the sharp end. I want him to win races, just as I would like eight other riders to do so again. Pointedly, I would like to see this season go to the wire again but this time entirely untainted by baseless conniving, conspiratorial claptrap. A series of similarly unsubstantiated accusations that you yourself conveniently gloss over when sanctimoniously accusing others of donning the tin foil.
 
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