Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

Gaz said:

And you have forgotten that I have stated for a long time that I expect Rossi to be heavily involved in the factory squad post-retirement with any satellite team being secondary and more as a feeder to factory

As for Vinales, time will tell but he will remain competitive for some time if the current form when looked at with his Suzuki and feed classes is anything to go by.

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Except we weren't discussing whether Rossi would have involvement in the factory team or not.

Besides no need since any satellite team is going to be a quasi-factory entry anyhow...shades of Nastro Azzurro.

JPSLotus said:

Except we weren't discussing whether Rossi would have involvement in the factory team or not.

Besides no need since any satellite team is going to be a quasi-factory entry anyhow...shades of Nastro Azzurro.

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If he chose a 'satellite' team it would be full factory if he wanted it (IMO) and whilst nope, we weren't my point is that his focus would be on the factory team not a satellite team.

Let me throw this there however.

If he is to be a satellite Yamaha team, are you saying that he would be additional to tech3 or replace?

BarryMachine said:

Unless Jlo can change the performance of the Duc ...... something rossi was pathetic at .........eg. go back to screamer config to lessen the effects of VSGs. ....

This is what Jlos real challenge at Duc. Could be ..... not how he rides it now .... but how he rides an evolved Duc. In sat 12 months time.

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Dovi rode the honda with strong teamates competitively. I still stay he could maintain a slight advantage over JLo even then.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Dovi rode the honda with strong teamates competitively. I still stay he could maintain a slight advantage over JLo even then.

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IMO, Dovi is good ............ yes but he is a step down on many others (not meant as disrespectfully as it sounds).

Yes he had a full factory Honda but if we are to be real about it, he produced little (one wet win) by comparison to his team-mates of the time.

Personally I was more impressed by his tech3 days where he bought his own brake setup which to me shows drive, desire and the good old 'put the money where the mouth is' approach of a guy who wants to achieve ......... on that alone I say he deserves a chance.

Plus, for mine he was far superior to Ianonne last year and whilst yes, AI got the win first that should not diminish that Dovi was taken out of more races last year by others than some people get taken out in a year.

But, I still feel he is a step below JL's ability all told, although time will tell if he is above or below JL on a Ducati

JPSLotus said:

I'm already thinking that depending on how Zarco does on the Tech 3, that may be Rossi's replacement at Yamaha. True he is not as young as Vinales, but he would be a solid number 2 on the factory team. I could see a scenario play out where instead of getting back to the factory Yamaha team, when Rossi sets up his satellite GP team, Lorenzo will ride there. That would be a far better proposition than the factory Yamaha team since you know any Rossi GP team is essentially going to be the factory Yamaha team under a different livery.

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Gaz said:

Agreed.

IMO, JL is one of the all timers but he is also not one of the DORNA chosen ones in terms of who to hang their hats on from a marketability viewpoint thus for me, he has less to offer in a return than did Rossi.

As for the CRT, I am one who is so glad that they have gone .............. wonder what they are doing now though and if any show up from time to time at a track day?





I doubt he will team with Rossi as ego's will get in the way and I see Rossi more targetting the younger guys he develops through his teams.

What I do see though is potential for JL to head down the Suzuki path should Ianonne/Rins not prove as development oriented or skilled, as for mine, JL's experience (post Yamaha and then Ducati) would be useful for Suzuki.

But all of this assumes failure at Ducati and I am not convinced yet

Which raises another question.

If is it failure for JL, then was it failure for VR (rhetorically speaking for as we know, the history revisionists do not term it failure for VR but failure for Ducati)?

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Maybe Rossi will pull a Rabat out of a hat.

Gaz said:

If he chose a 'satellite' team it would be full factory if he wanted it (IMO) and whilst nope, we weren't my point is that his focus would be on the factory team not a satellite team.

Let me throw this there however.

If he is to be a satellite Yamaha team, are you saying that he would be additional to tech3 or replace?

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I think it would additional to Tech 3. Yamaha could supply another bike or two. HRC and Ducati already supply more satellite bikes than Yamaha.

michaelm said:

Exactly. And even though I am a Lorenzo fan if it does pan out that way Jorge's decision will have been even more stupid than Rossi's was given he had the example of what happened to Rossi in rather similar circumstances.

We need to wait a little anyway, leaving Jorge and whether he will be able to ride Ducatis at all aside I don't consider it likely that Abraham and Petrucci have suddenly become better than Dovi (this would fit Jumkie's views about the overwhelming importance of equipment though), and it is possible Ducati have totally ...... up their 2017 bike with the 2016 bike actually being superior to it, realising that practice results can be aberrant of course.

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Mayhaps I'm projecting, but at present I'm getting a Hayden / Rossi feeling of Deja Vu. Lorenzo thus far, looks really at sea.

BarryMachine said:

Unless Jlo can change the performance of the Duc ...... something rossi was pathetic at .........eg. go back to screamer config to lessen the effects of VSGs. ....

This is what Jlos real challenge at Duc. Could be ..... not how he rides it now .... but how he rides an evolved Duc. In sat 12 months time.

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Vibrating Slug Goggles?

Little Walter said:

Vibrating Slug Goggles?

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Very Special Gamecocks.

Gaz said:

IMO, Dovi is good ............ yes but he is a step down on many others (not meant as disrespectfully as it sounds).

Yes he had a full factory Honda but if we are to be real about it, he produced little (one wet win) by comparison to his team-mates of the time.

Personally I was more impressed by his tech3 days where he bought his own brake setup which to me shows drive, desire and the good old 'put the money where the mouth is' approach of a guy who wants to achieve ......... on that alone I say he deserves a chance.

Plus, for mine he was far superior to Ianonne last year and whilst yes, AI got the win first that should not diminish that Dovi was taken out of more races last year by others than some people get taken out in a year.

But, I still feel he is a step below JL's ability all told, although time will tell if he is above or below JL on a Ducati

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I agree that JL is a caliber above Dovi but all those points above make Dovi better now than then. I think he can maintain his advantage at Ducati.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I agree that JL is a caliber above Dovi but all those points above make Dovi better now than then. I think he can maintain his advantage at Ducati.

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Dovi seems to be a rider who has gotten better with age, but still he has not gotten championship better (if that makes sense).

I have no doubt at all that Lorenzo has in many ways jumped from the fire to the frying pan in terms of going from one competitive team-mate to another and of this I also have no doubt that he was fully aware of the challenge (Dovi's 2016 finish should have been better and was not through little fault of his own).

I do suspect that Dovi will be better in 2017 as I expect Lorenzo to take some time to fully come to grips (he will have a good race here or there early) but I see 2018 as the truly challenging year between both.

IMO only, but it is a good contest within the main contest (as is MV/VR)

JPSLotus said:

You haven't knocked me out. That you're celebrating the way you are pretty much shows how badly you have had your ... handed to you that you were desperate to get any kind of "win" even though most of us aren't looking at this stuff as wins or losses.

There's more to that story than is being mentioned, so I wouldn't be so quick to call it a win.

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Just quoting myself for posterity. Much like I said here, there was more to this story than was being mentioned. This is from SuperBikePlanet...

Warning: boring tyre stuff follows. The late withdrawal of the fourth, stiffer front tyre following the Safety Commission meeting last night raised a few eyebrows. Cal Crutchlow wasn’t happy that a “rat” was leaking things said in the privacy of the Commission. Marc Marquez managed to be diplomatic in the extreme by pointing out that the tyre would probably have helped him but you cannot just change the rules and overcrowd the race schedule. The unspoken suggestion was, of course, that this was the tyre that Valentino Rossi very much wanted to use, although he did not attend the meeting. Was this really a matter of safety or a technical rule? A rat told me that one rider demanded very loudly of Loris Capirossi why he was bringing a special tyre for his friends: “You never do that for me when I have a sh*t weekend!”

https://www.superbikeplanet.com/ryder-notes-karel-abraham-pay-rider-lawyer-fighter-fast/

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Guess Vudu didn't really win anything.

Amazing that the tyre story really made it to print. Someone could have their hat handed to them on the safety commission. Here's one:

Little Walter said:

Vibrating Slug Goggles?

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Mick D said:

Very Special Gamecocks.

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VERY SILLY GUESSES!!!

povol said:

This 4th tire is fascinating. No one knows who asked for it, no one knows why it was brought and by who. One thing that does seem clear is that Marquez carries a big axe and shut down its use this weekend.Seems he has had enough of the machinations and used his influence and knowledge of the rule book to shut it down cold.

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100% agree, Marquez among others is implying and giving read between the lines kind of evidence without coming out and actually saying anything. I know Krop says that the idea of a conspiracy is ridiculous but Marquez is on record saying that the complaint for him was that the rubber was too soft and not the carcass. Michelin gave a inconsistent story that directly contradicts what Marquez among others have said.

p4p1 said:

100% agree, Marquez among others is implying and giving read between the lines kind of evidence without coming out and actually saying anything. I know Krop says that the idea of a conspiracy is ridiculous but Marquez is on record saying that the complaint for him was that the rubber was too soft and not the carcass. Michelin gave a inconsistent story that directly contradicts what Marquez among others have said.

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Just guessing, but I somehow doubt JKant will accept a "reasonable inference" or implication as constituting evidence when such an inference doesn't coincide with his own narrative.

michaelm said:

Just guessing, but I somehow doubt JKant will accept a "reasonable inference" or implication as constituting evidence when such an inference doesn't coincide with his own narrative.

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I'm sure he/they won't. But it seems now there is another big dog in town, a lot of 'coincidences' that didn't make it to the media before now have mainstream attention. A couple of years ago when I first started reading about these tyres I spoke on another forum about what I'd read and my opinion based on what Id read. I was quickly called names and labelled a conspiracy theorist ect but now on the same sites, the same people who ridiculed me for my opinion are certainly agreeing with major parts of what I had previously argued.

Marquez in one interview has just disproved much of what MV/Dani were arguing and much of what Michelin had previously stated. As a Marquez fan I would be more than happy with a new front tyre that suits Rossi more as it would mean Marquez would run away with another title.

Jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon again I see!
Fact is the tyre was withdrawn due to a majority vote by the entire attendance of the safety commission and not a decision by Marquez alone.
Lack of available track time is the reason it was withdrawn.
Several riders voiced complaints about the 2017 front tyre after Qatar race.
Michelin decided to bring the new tyre because of that.
Not a request from one person.
At all.

p4p1 said:

I'm sure he/they won't. But it seems now there is another big dog in town, a lot of 'coincidences' that didn't make it to the media before now have mainstream attention. A couple of years ago when I first started reading about these tyres I spoke on another forum about what I'd read and my opinion based on what Id read. I was quickly called names and labelled a conspiracy theorist ect but now on the same sites, the same people who ridiculed me for my opinion are certainly agreeing with major parts of what I had previously argued.

Marquez in one interview has just disproved much of what MV/Dani were arguing and much of what Michelin had previously stated. As a Marquez fan I would be more than happy with a new front tyre that suits Rossi more as it would mean Marquez would run away with another title.

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The irony in this case being that the posters concerned were already calling those on this forum with views which differ from theirs conspiracy theorists on the basis of what they assumed would be the attitude to something they had already pre-judged as having no substance/being a mere coincidence.

I don't go all the way on a pro-Rossi tyre conspiracy as I have said, for much of his career imo he had the advantages which have always accrued to the best riders, like Doohan before him, and also like Doohan before him his status was well-earned, again imo. My objection back then was to fans of his complaining about other riders having "advantages".

I think the tyre shenanigans of the last 10 years have now gone well beyond the point of being in any way reasonably considered to be a chain of coincidences, but like Birdman believe any manipulation is largely by Dorna and for their own ends which are not necessarily always Rossi-centric. As the truism goes though, in any contest always back self-interest, at least you know the object of your wager will be trying.

I wasn't always an MM admirer, although like Rossi his talent could never be denied, and his achievements of course are now also undeniable. One of the things I have come to admire about him is that he clearly will take no crap from anyone, with this latest episode perhaps another example of same.

Daniboy said:

Jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon again I see!
Fact is the tyre was withdrawn due to a majority vote by the entire attendance of the safety commission and not a decision by Marquez alone.
Lack of available track time is the reason it was withdrawn.
Several riders voiced complaints about the 2017 front tyre after Qatar race.
Michelin decided to bring the new tyre because of that.
Not a request from one person.
At all.

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I tend to agree and have more or less said any evidence is inferential/by implication at best, but am once again amused by the differential standards you guys apply depending on what suits your narrative/opinion.