Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina 2017

JPSLotus said:

One thing not getting talked about from today: Alex Rins.

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Another thing not getting talked about: Loris Baz. He seriously deserves a factory ride. I think he'd fare better on the #22 Aprilia than Lowes.

Gaz said:

He won't be on one in 2018 lest he walk out on a contract which, I am sorry, is a blatant admission of failure.

To see out the contract and move is a different aspect

But, you are also talking to someone who wholly expects him to win races and actually has money riding on it with a mate.

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Knowing what we know about the way he rides and the way the ducati should be ridden why do you think he will win? I ask because I like your opinions gaz and I want to hear your answer.

michaelm said:

Of course the tyre delamination was related to the conditions, and what the guy is basically saying is that it was, in his opinion only of course, a design fault/consequent on intrinsic characteristics of Michelin tyres rather than a manufacturing problem; pretty much everyone on the blame Michelin rather than the riders side of the debate has said that a production problem or a design problem are the two possibilities. Whatever his level of knowledge, he doesn't account for the early race demise of Dovi's tyre in wetter conditions, which does suggest some batch variation, the alternative being the tyre was such a poor design it was prone to failure when used by a particular bike and rider even in the conditions for which it was supposedly designed.

As we have both said, the test will be whether they supply the exact same tyre again with instructions to the riders to stay below the delamination threshold if they elect to stay out on the tyre if conditions begin to dry.

Amusing that both DB and Jkant have proffered Motomatters articles/posts more than 6 months after the debate started of which we were all aware from the get go but they apparently had not previously seen.

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Agreed. While his post was interesting overall, it read more as an apology for Michelin once he got into the delaminations with trying to shift the blame off onto some force Michelin had no control over, which is a half-truth IMO. They didn't have control over it, but they still manufactured the tire and were unaware of what would happen.

Tells you how much either of them read anything when only months later as you correctly state they are proffering these articles.

#22 said:

The only thing with Vinales, is I have heard on a past Soupkast, that he has no intention of staying in the sport long term. They mentioned that he had hinted it was his intention to win 1 or 2 titles, get financial security for his family then bugger off. A bit like a past champion. However, whether this actually happens or not is debatable.

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I heard the same thing, but forgot about it till you mentioned it just now. Would be unfortunate if that's the route he is going to take with GP, but I can't exactly fault him for it. It will be interesting to see if he can actually make good on that or not.

#22 said:

Another thing not getting talked about: Loris Baz. He seriously deserves a factory ride. I think he'd fare better on the #22 Aprilia than Lowes.

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I'm not ready to say he deserves a factory ride yet...truth be told I'd rather he stays on a satellite Ducati unless he can get one of the better factory bikes which seems unlikely. Did love his performance today and have been hoping for the best with him since I have an affinity for those larger riders who have to work extra hard to be out there due to their size disadvantage. The Aprilia would be a good bike for him, and I don't see Sam Lowes lasting beyond a couple of seasons at best in GP. He and Rins are are not GP material much like Rabat.

Saturday in Argentina saw most MotoGP riders complete their first wet laps of the year.

For Valentino Rossi, the experience offered a further clue regarding the cause of the front-end 'movement' he has been struggling with since winter testing.

The Italian believed it was down to the softer construction of the new Michelin front tyre.

But, just as Michelin prepared to test a stiffer front this weekend, Rossi had signalled his troubles could actually be coming from changes made to the 2017 Yamaha.


That theory received a boost when Rossi felt the same front-end difficulties in the wet as he had in the dry, despite the obvious tyre differences.

"Yeah, I have the same feeling in [corner] entry," Rossi said of riding in the wet compared with the dry. "Last year I was stronger. The old bike for me was more natural. With this one I have to force it more. It is something more difficult.

"But I think working on the balance, on the setting, we can improve it... I think trying the bike in the wet can be interesting to improve in the dry."

The Italian, who had been just 16th in the dry on Friday, missed out on the chance to break into the top ten when rain arrived during FP3. But he went on to finish second in the wet Qualifying 1, then took seventh on the grid in Qualifying 2.

"P7 is not too bad considering my pace. I don't know if in the dry I can do the same," he admitted. "This morning in the dry we modify the bike and improve a bit, but unfortunately it was just once exit. In the wet it was a bit better and I was able to do a good lap at the end of Q1.

"Starting from the third row is quite good. Now we have to wait to see the conditions. We hope it will be full dry or full wet, not half and half, and we will see our pace. Tomorrow we have the warm-up and in case of a dry race, we hope the track can be dry already in the morning.

"And after the tyre choice will be important, front and rear, because it is open between medium and hard and depends very much on the temperature."

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Read more at MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Rain suggests Rossi's problems bike, not tyre?

misjudge problem from Valentino Rossi?
is it the same goes to 2011/2012 season? the problem is the rider, not the bike. lol.

Iamapony said:

Correct, p4p1. I think I brought that up. So who knows what Michelin is doing. It just makes the whole tire/tyre conspiracy go on. Rightly or wrongly.


I think Rins got too close to Marquez and MM just adjusted a little to avoid colliding.
...... Or he was gunning for Maverick, because taking him out now is easier than in the race.

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A significant reason for the debate continuing is one of the main protagonists in MV claiming that he has "won" it.

Just for the record, I don't believe there was a conspiracy this year or last year for Michelin to provide a tyre which suited Rossi but not others.

However, that Michelin when previously a GP bike racing tyre supplier did so in a tiered fashion, that Rossi insisting on switching to Bridgestones was a factor in the genesis of the control tyre rule currently in operation, that the control tyre disadvantaged several teams and riders ie all the Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki teams and those who rode for them, that tyres which suited more than 1 leading rider not called Valentino Rossi were removed or became unavailable, and that Michelin supplied tyres which were defective last year are matters of historical fact, not inventions to support conspiracy theories, and Rossi using his influence or influence being used on his behalf to engineer him riding on Bridgestones in 2008 is pretty close to having the status of being an historical fact as well.

Little Walter said:

That would be really sad. Lorenzo still has a lot to offer. I would hate to see him go out like Lawson on the Cagiva or Hayden on the CRT. I do not picture him going to WSBK.

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I could see that happening, and as you say it happened to Eddie Lawson, and much though I admire Lorenzo Eddie was even better.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Hence why I asked hypothetically. What is not hypothetical is the style in which JLo in known for and style in which the ducati needs to be ridden. I good debate could be made that the outlook is grim.

If you think I am a Rossi fan you don't pay attention to my posts very well. He made a .... mistake too and proved he can't adapt to anything ass many say he can.

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Saying based on his results so far this season is what i have answered.

Were you to say based on his riding style Id say just like rossi, Lornzo is the wrong man for the job. He has to ride the bike like Stoner did ..... past the point of known traction,at times, and balancing grip by other means.

Im beginning to think that we are actually seeing the next best Duc. Rider in Dovi. He can ride in the wet ........ so he must have some skills riding a skating bike ..... not anywhere the skills Stoner had ..... but he has skills.

Marquez ... maybe he could ..... Lorenzo no ..... like rossi he has to have a bike that grips.

Little Walter said:

Hypothetically, what it says is, Lorenzo made the same stupid mistake that Rossi did by switching from his perfect soul mate bike to one that only Stoner has truly been able to tame.

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Exactly. And even though I am a Lorenzo fan if it does pan out that way Jorge's decision will have been even more stupid than Rossi's was given he had the example of what happened to Rossi in rather similar circumstances.

We need to wait a little anyway, leaving Jorge and whether he will be able to ride Ducatis at all aside I don't consider it likely that Abraham and Petrucci have suddenly become better than Dovi (this would fit Jumkie's views about the overwhelming importance of equipment though), and it is possible Ducati have totally ...... up their 2017 bike with the 2016 bike actually being superior to it, realising that practice results can be aberrant of course.

michaelm said:

Exactly. And even though I am a Lorenzo fan if it does pan out that way Jorge's decision will have been even more stupid than Rossi's was given he had the example of what happened to Rossi in rather similar circumstances.

We need to wait a little anyway, leaving Jorge and whether he will be able to ride Ducatis at all aside I don't consider it likely that Abraham and Petrucci have suddenly become better than Dovi (this would fit Jumkie's views about the overwhelming importance of equipment though), and it is possible Ducati have totally ...... up their 2017 bike with the 2016 bike actually being superior to it, realising that practice results can be aberrant of course.

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I'm giving it till Jerez to see what the factory GP17's look like. If they don't look good at either COTA or Jerez, they may need to consider reverting back to the 2016 chassis and calling it a the 2017 B-spec chassis.

BarryMachine said:

Saying based on his results so far this season is what i have answered.

Were you to say based on his riding style Id say just like rossi, Lornzo is the wrong man for the job. He has to ride the bike like Stoner did ..... past the point of known traction,at times, and balancing grip by other means.

Im beginning to think that we are actually seeing the next best Duc. Rider in Dovi. He can ride in the wet ........ so he must have some skills riding a skating bike ..... not anywhere the skills Stoner had ..... but he has skills.

Marquez ... maybe he could ..... Lorenzo no ..... like rossi he has to have a bike that grips.

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Thats why it must be worry some for JLo. Dovi is riding the bike better than anyone we've seen since your boy. So in any condition he's mile ahead. I don't see that changing this year or next.

JKant said:

https://vimeo.com/212405015


Thankfully he saves his craziest stunts for non-race sessions.

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Thats crazy. Doesn't he have Aids to prevent that. That could be deadly on a full blown grid. Reminds me of Scott Russell at Daytona

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Thats crazy. Doesn't he have Aids to prevent that. That could be deadly on a full blown grid. Reminds me of Scott Russell at Daytona

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You try practice starting while Iannone pulls up next to you with out hitting yourself.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Oh crap Barry. Wally has kidnapped your Emojis. Or maybe they ran away from the tosspot and into the arms of a despot

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He certainly ran away with my jibe about you being obsessed wit Stoner!

Good work Walt! especially on the carefully constructed sequence of emojiis ...... I get it ..... some wouldnt

JPSLotus said:

I'm not ready to say he deserves a factory ride yet...truth be told I'd rather he stays on a satellite Ducati unless he can get one of the better factory bikes which seems unlikely. Did love his performance today and have been hoping for the best with him since I have an affinity for those larger riders who have to work extra hard to be out there due to their size disadvantage. The Aprilia would be a good bike for him, and I don't see Sam Lowes lasting beyond a couple of seasons at best in GP. He and Rins are are not GP material much like Rabat.

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I certainly think he'd suck on a small bike like the Honda or Suzuki which is why I suggested Aprilia.

However, in true forum etiquette, now that you have disagreed with my opinion I must call you a C*** :giggle:

This 4th tire is fascinating. No one knows who asked for it, no one knows why it was brought and by who. One thing that does seem clear is that Marquez carries a big axe and shut down its use this weekend.Seems he has had enough of the machinations and used his influence and knowledge of the rule book to shut it down cold.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Thats why it must be worry some for JLo. Dovi is riding the bike better than anyone we've seen since your boy. So in any condition he's mile ahead. I don't see that changing this year or next.

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Unless Jlo can change the performance of the Duc ...... something rossi was pathetic at .........eg. go back to screamer config to lessen the effects of VSGs. ....

This is what Jlos real challenge at Duc. Could be ..... not how he rides it now .... but how he rides an evolved Duc. In sat 12 months time.

JPSLotus said:

Vinales is going to be at Yamaha for a long time. He won't give up the factory Yamaha ride for anything else as there isn't anything else worth giving it up for.

You misread what I said. I didn't say he would be on a M1 in 2018. I said...

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And you have forgotten that I have stated for a long time that I expect Rossi to be heavily involved in the factory squad post-retirement with any satellite team being secondary and more as a feeder to factory

As for Vinales, time will tell but he will remain competitive for some time if the current form when looked at with his Suzuki and feed classes is anything to go by.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Knowing what we know about the way he rides and the way the ducati should be ridden why do you think he will win? I ask because I like your opinions gaz and I want to hear your answer.

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Few reasons really Mdub (and I say win races, not championships).

For mine, he is to good not to win races and he has done so in all conditions in the past. I am a fan of 'you simply do not lose it' and for mine, you do not win titles in multiple classes against some of the best in the world without having the 'it' factor (the same applies for all riders before the usual suspects jump in).

I admit that his style is rather 'simplistic' in that he tends to be a wheels in line, high corner speed style of rider which is not a Ducati trait, but I also remember how he has adjusted throughout the years to the 250cc and early 4stroke machinery up until last year.

May well be naive of me but I do not believe that he cannot change style, I do however believe that unlike some he takes time as for him it is a confidence aspect and one that for him is all about 'baby steps' rather than the 'jump on, twist and go' style of others who have changed brands across the years. His style is more about trust and building the trust than it is about finding the immediate limits, thus I see his adjustment as more of a progressive thing rather than a race one determines success or failure.

Couple this with my belief that Ducati is more amenable to changes than perhaps some other manufacturers and so I suspect that if he requests something, they may well produce for him in a 'suck and see' approach. Shame here will be if all of Dovi's work over the recent past is thrown out but I suspect not as many manufacturers will build for rider A as rider B is comfortable, and will then offer the part rather than force.

Additional to this is that there are some tracks at which the Ducati just seems at home, so for me these circuits are a sure sign as (with respect to Dovi), Lorenzo is a better rider and thus should, and I say should be able to use those tracks to his advantage.

I do not think it will be easy for Lorenzo however as this is a very competitive age and for mine, the biggest risk is Lorenzo himself and how he copes with the changes, both immediate but also future if his struggles continue.