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So hypothetically what does that say about Lorenzo if his season continues as is?


On a serious side I say give it two years before a true comparison can be made but one could well say that if the results are similar or worse, then much like many men over the years, he was lured by promises and ended up finding that the promise was hollow.

The big difference that I feel is that unlike VR for whom DORNA tolls (rolls even?), if JL is not successful then doors will have closed behind him
 
So hypothetically what does that say about Lorenzo if his season continues as is?

It saýs ........ you should wait for more data before jumping to more conclusions.


And

Dont make the main premise of your observations based on fitting the model .....

" oh rossi is my bieber ....... so what else could possibly be blamed .... even if its ridiculously illogical".
 
So hypothetically what does that say about Lorenzo if his season continues as is?

It won't say anything.

What will say something is what he does or does not do on the GP18.

It's not like he was going to have any real input on the GP17 as they started working on it before he got there. The question is if they translate his input into next year's bike and if he is successful with it.
 
On a serious side I say give it two years before a true comparison can be made but one could well say that if the results are similar or worse, then much like many men over the years, he was lured by promises and ended up finding that the promise was hollow.

The big difference that I feel is that unlike VR for whom DORNA tolls (rolls even?), if JL is not successful then doors will have closed behind him

That would be really sad. Lorenzo still has a lot to offer. I would hate to see him go out like Lawson on the Cagiva or Hayden on the CRT. I do not picture him going to WSBK.
 
On a serious side I say give it two years before a true comparison can be made but one could well say that if the results are similar or worse, then much like many men over the years, he was lured by promises and ended up finding that the promise was hollow.

The big difference that I feel is that unlike VR for whom DORNA tolls (rolls even?), if JL is not successful then doors will have closed behind him

I'm already thinking that depending on how Zarco does on the Tech 3, that may be Rossi's replacement at Yamaha. True he is not as young as Vinales, but he would be a solid number 2 on the factory team. I could see a scenario play out where instead of getting back to the factory Yamaha team, when Rossi sets up his satellite GP team, Lorenzo will ride there. That would be a far better proposition than the factory Yamaha team since you know any Rossi GP team is essentially going to be the factory Yamaha team under a different livery.
 
That would be really sad. Lorenzo still has a lot to offer. I would hate to see him go out like Lawson on the Cagiva or Hayden on the CRT. I do not picture him going to WSBK.

Agreed.

IMO, JL is one of the all timers but he is also not one of the DORNA chosen ones in terms of who to hang their hats on from a marketability viewpoint thus for me, he has less to offer in a return than did Rossi.

As for the CRT, I am one who is so glad that they have gone .............. wonder what they are doing now though and if any show up from time to time at a track day?



I'm already thinking that depending on how Zarco does on the Tech 3, that may be Rossi's replacement at Yamaha. True he is not as young as Vinales, but he would be a solid number 2 on the factory team. I could see a scenario play out where instead of getting back to the factory Yamaha team, when Rossi sets up his satellite GP team, Lorenzo will ride there. That would be a far better proposition than the factory Yamaha team since you know any Rossi GP team is essentially going to be the factory Yamaha team under a different livery.

I doubt he will team with Rossi as ego's will get in the way and I see Rossi more targetting the younger guys he develops through his teams.

What I do see though is potential for JL to head down the Suzuki path should Ianonne/Rins not prove as development oriented or skilled, as for mine, JL's experience (post Yamaha and then Ducati) would be useful for Suzuki.

But all of this assumes failure at Ducati and I am not convinced yet

Which raises another question.

If is it failure for JL, then was it failure for VR (rhetorically speaking for as we know, the history revisionists do not term it failure for VR but failure for Ducati)?
 
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Agreed.

IMO, JL is one of the all timers but he is also not one of the DORNA chosen ones in terms of who to hang their hats on from a marketability viewpoint thus for me, he has less to offer in a return than did Rossi.

As for the CRT, I am one who is so glad that they have gone .............. wonder what they are doing now though and if any show up from time to time at a track day?





I doubt he will team with Rossi as ego's will get in the way and I see Rossi more targetting the younger guys he develops through his teams.

What I do see though is potential for JL to head down the Suzuki path should Ianonne/Rins not prove as development oriented or skilled, as for mine, JL's experience (post Yamaha and then Ducati) would be useful for Suzuki.

But all of this assumes failure at Ducati and I am not convinced yet

Which raises another question.

If is it failure for JL, the was it failure for VR (rhetorically speaking for as we know, the history revisionists do not term it failure for VR but failure for Ducati)?

I don't think Rossi's ego would get in the way as he already stated that he would like Lorenzo if he had a GP team. Becomes a different story when Rossi is no longer riding and only managing the team. Lorenzo would make a much bigger statement for his team out of the gate. Maybe pair him with one of the VR46 guys so you have a leader till the other becomes acclimated with the bike.
 
I don't think Rossi's ego would get in the way as he already stated that he would like Lorenzo if he had a GP team. Becomes a different story when Rossi is no longer riding and only managing the team. Lorenzo would make a much bigger statement for his team out of the gate. Maybe pair him with one of the VR46 guys so you have a leader till the other becomes acclimated with the bike.


I do feel that both their egos would be at play as for mine, Rossi is the master of lip service (thus the comments you reference) and just as likely, Lorenzo will not want to be seen as subservient to Rossi in any way, shape or form.

True that once retired there may be some thawing of the relationship but we will need to wait a while to tell.

That all said, I do feel that VR employing JL would be a publicity boom for what would then be team VR as there would be sponsors from both but more intricately would be the media interest given the past decade or so.

Of course, the big factor again is that JL must fist fail at Ducati, but also that if/when this occurs that he will still want to race at this level
 
It saýs ........ you should wait for more data before jumping to more conclusions.


And

Dont make the main premise of your observations based on fitting the model .....

" oh rossi is my bieber ....... so what else could possibly be blamed .... even if its ridiculously illogical".

Hence why I asked hypothetically. What is not hypothetical is the style in which JLo in known for and style in which the ducati needs to be ridden. I good debate could be made that the outlook is grim.

If you think I am a Rossi fan you don't pay attention to my posts very well. He made a .... mistake too and proved he can't adapt to anything ... many say he can.
 
It won't say anything.

What will say something is what he does or does not do on the GP18.

It's not like he was going to have any real input on the GP17 as they started working on it before he got there. The question is if they translate his input into next year's bike and if he is successful with it.

I can't argue that next year isn't more important but hes not off to the kind of start he and his fans would hope if he is to mesh. If Ducati development was to accomplish making that bike more suitable than of course he'd be better. But they have trying to do that for a very long time now.
 
I doubt Rossi would hire a Spaniard. Didn't he mention that his primary intent for VR/46 Racing was to promote Italians? It makes no sense to think he would hire JLo, who is a direct rival to him as a racer and definitely not Italian.

Ducati may be the most baffling enigma in any racing history. How can a rider like Crutchlow go from a satellite Yamaha to a factory ride to a satellite Honda and do better on the satellites? How can two year old Ducatis beat new Ducatis? How can Dovi look so good on a Ducati one weekend and then look terrible two weeks later? And these are just recent conundrums. Gigi is not the second coming of Madonna, apparently, and I feel betrayed. Pfft.
 
“The thing was that the rules say normally this year we will have three front tyres and three rear tyres. We cannot have more, or less, but for some reason Michelin bring this extra tyre in the front. Then we speak a little bit in the Safety Commission and as why we have this tyre and even they didn't know.

“Loris [Capirossi] said he didn't know and they didn't have any information,” Marquez said. “Of the 13 riders on Safety Commission nobody of these riders asked for a different tyre, so for that reason I think it is better to try in a proper test, like after Jerez or something like this.”

Asked if the decision was made based on safety or from a technical standpoint, Marquez said: “Both. In the end, it's like last year in speaking with the Safety Commission we arrived at the point that we would have three tyres for the front and rear per race. This was the main item and three tyres is enough. We cannot have more tyres because then it will be like a tyre test during the weekend. There was no need for safety or for nothing to use this new tyre with a different character and everybody was agreed yesterday.

“Maybe inside these eight riders [who asked for the older stiffer carcass with the 2017 profile], I can be there, but I complain about the compound of the tyre, not about the profile of the tyre and a different tyre. Looking at the data and what they say to us, this new tyre that they bring here and that they cancelled, can be better for my riding style because it is even stronger.

“If it is a little bit more strong it can be better for the brake points for my style, but the point is the time to change this tyre and in the end we follow the rules. In one hand I want to try because it can be better for my riding style.”

MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Marquez, Crutchlow back tyre withdrawal call

Remember, nobody has enough technical knowledge of mich tyres more than Nicholas Goubert and Taramasso, even for MotoGP riders.



lol.
 
I do feel that both their egos would be at play as for mine, Rossi is the master of lip service (thus the comments you reference) and just as likely, Lorenzo will not want to be seen as subservient to Rossi in any way, shape or form.

True that once retired there may be some thawing of the relationship but we will need to wait a while to tell.

That all said, I do feel that VR employing JL would be a publicity boom for what would then be team VR as there would be sponsors from both but more intricately would be the media interest given the past decade or so.

Of course, the big factor again is that JL must fist fail at Ducati, but also that if/when this occurs that he will still want to race at this level

I think you're underestimating Rossi's desire to win even if he is no longer riding. If he sets up a satellite Yamaha team for 2019, who is going to be on the market that gives him the absolute best chance of winning a title on the Yamaha M1? Lorenzo.

Lorenzo doesn't need to fail at Ducati for this to happen. He may just decide that being on a Yamaha M1 no matter what happens in 2018 is the best way for him to finish out his career. I don't think any of us could argue if he made a decision like that.
 
I doubt Rossi would hire a Spaniard. Didn't he mention that his primary intent for VR/46 Racing was to promote Italians? It makes no sense to think he would hire JLo, who is a direct rival to him as a racer and definitely not Italian.

Ducati may be the most baffling enigma in any racing history. How can a rider like Crutchlow go from a satellite Yamaha to a factory ride to a satellite Honda and do better on the satellites? How can two year old Ducatis beat new Ducatis? How can Dovi look so good on a Ducati one weekend and then look terrible two weeks later? And these are just recent conundrums. Gigi is not the second coming of Madonna, apparently, and I feel betrayed. Pfft.

Sure but the realities of running a GP team would preclude from going solely Italian riders only as it's about winning grands prix at that point more than rider development. Rider development is Moto 3 and Moto 2. Once you get to GP, you're either developed as a rider and capable of riding a GP machine (see Zarco, Folger) or you're not (see Rabat and Rins). While I have no doubt he would like to have an all Italian GP team, that may not be a realistic vision by any means. And you are looking at this the wrong way as Gaz is IMO...being retired from racing changes the dynamics of rival relationships significantly. See the difference in the relationship between Wayne Rainey and Kevin Schwantz....two guys who hated each other probably as much as it was ever possible to hate another competitor. They had a thaw in their relationship, and it's not the contentious, hate-filled relationship that they had back in the late 80s/early 90s.
 
That has already been posted here Kant.

He doesn't see it as a quality issue, but I disagree. We see it time and time again in motor racing where drivers/riders try to stay out longer on a rapidly drying track than they probably should have without seeing their tires delaminate. Sure the soft retains heat longer than the hard does, but it doesn't mean the tire delaminating is a foregone conclusion, or even an acceptable outcome.

He also talks about Michelin tires giving good grip, when the only good grip the Michelin's have been noted for in GP is the rear tire. Their front tire was never close to what Bridgestone was supplying. Even in their previous stint, the same characteristics of great rear grip and lesser grip on the front were noted. Casey Stoner who knows more about how tires perform on grand prix motorcycles already stated that the Michelin front and rear profiles were mismatched with the amount of grip the rear provided relative to the front tire last year. I would like to see what his thoughts are on the 2017 tires to see if there is any difference from last year or if the Michelin philosophy still remains the same.

Of course the tyre delamination was related to the conditions, and what the guy is basically saying is that it was, in his opinion only of course, a design fault/consequent on intrinsic characteristics of Michelin tyres rather than a manufacturing problem; pretty much everyone on the blame Michelin rather than the riders side of the debate has said that a production problem or a design problem are the two possibilities. Whatever his level of knowledge, he doesn't account for the early race demise of Dovi's tyre in wetter conditions, which does suggest some batch variation, the alternative being the tyre was such a poor design it was prone to failure when used by a particular bike and rider even in the conditions for which it was supposedly designed.

As we have both said, the test will be whether they supply the exact same tyre again with instructions to the riders to stay below the delamination threshold if they elect to stay out on the tyre if conditions begin to dry.

Amusing that both DB and Jkant have proffered Motomatters articles/posts more than 6 months after the debate started of which we were all aware from the get go but they apparently had not previously seen.
 
I think you're underestimating Rossi's desire to win even if he is no longer riding. If he sets up a satellite Yamaha team for 2019, who is going to be on the market that gives him the absolute best chance of winning a title on the Yamaha M1? Lorenzo.

Not underestimating the desire at all as for Rossi, if he chooses to remain involved in the sport it will need to be in a highly competitive and winning way, as anything less risks removing the brand from the forefront of racing fandom worldwide.

If you are to assume that you are talking 2019, then Vinales will be on the market for starters, as will other people who signed for 2 years from 2017 so the market is not restricted to just Lorenzo.


Lorenzo doesn't need to fail at Ducati for this to happen. He may just decide that being on a Yamaha M1 no matter what happens in 2018 is the best way for him to finish out his career. I don't think any of us could argue if he made a decision like that.

He won't be on one in 2018 lest he walk out on a contract which, I am sorry, is a blatant admission of failure.

To see out the contract and move is a different aspect

But, you are also talking to someone who wholly expects him to win races and actually has money riding on it with a mate.
 
One thing not getting talked about from today: Alex Rins.

He's riding around with a fracture in his right ankle from a motorcross accident. But he was over a second behind Sam Lowes for dead last place.

Even taking into account his injury and taking into account that this is race 2, is anyone else getting the feeling his GP career is going to be very short? He finished 9th at Qatar, but everything I have seen out of him has been decidedly unimpressive. I said at the time of Suzuki signing him it was a bad move. Hard to believe they went with Rins over Zarco. Still is looking to be a cataclysmically bad decision on Suzuki's part.
 
I'm already thinking that depending on how Zarco does on the Tech 3, that may be Rossi's replacement at Yamaha. True he is not as young as Vinales, but he would be a solid number 2 on the factory team. I could see a scenario play out where instead of getting back to the factory Yamaha team, when Rossi sets up his satellite GP team, Lorenzo will ride there. That would be a far better proposition than the factory Yamaha team since you know any Rossi GP team is essentially going to be the factory Yamaha team under a different livery.

The only thing with Vinales, is I have heard on a past Soupkast, that he has no intention of staying in the sport long term. They mentioned that he had hinted it was his intention to win 1 or 2 titles, get financial security for his family then bugger off. A bit like a past champion. However, whether this actually happens or not is debatable.
 
Not underestimating the desire at all as for Rossi, if he chooses to remain involved in the sport it will need to be in a highly competitive and winning way, as anything less risks removing the brand from the forefront of racing fandom worldwide.

If you are to assume that you are talking 2019, then Vinales will be on the market for starters, as will other people who signed for 2 years from 2017 so the market is not restricted to just Lorenzo.




He won't be on one in 2018 lest he walk out on a contract which, I am sorry, is a blatant admission of failure.

To see out the contract and move is a different aspect

But, you are also talking to someone who wholly expects him to win races and actually has money riding on it with a mate.

Vinales is going to be at Yamaha for a long time. He won't give up the factory Yamaha ride for anything else as there isn't anything else worth giving it up for.

You misread what I said. I didn't say he would be on a M1 in 2018. I said...

He may just decide that being on a Yamaha M1 no matter what happens in 2018 is the best way for him to finish out his career.

;)
 

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