**SPOILER** Jerez Race

Bloody hell Jumkie!

For God's sake RJ! That was bordering on OCD.

GET OUT MORE!

BTW, I think you might be banned for 11x posting!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Mar 28 2007, 05:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i know why!....cause he's a girl.

If you're suffering from some kind of cataract problems, i'll excuse you!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting. The race was called about the 12th post, here on the 15th post (what I’m sure was moments later), the first thing that comes to this guy’s mind is Hayden? Wow.

Or rather, the first thing that comes to this guy's mind is " how i can piss jumkie off".

Jumkie, you are a legend! These are some of the best and funniest posts Ive seen on here.

It's also great to see you so gracious in your boys rather dissapointing, crap, unlucky (delete as applicable) performance on Sunday.

Well done sir, you are showing an almost Rossiesque ability to debate.

pete

Man.............thats sure did fill the database up!!

I'll respond where you quoted me

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>5. It seems out of character for you to single out Hayden's comments then say he is making excuses, and further go on to make them akin to Biaggi. snip

RJ - I wasnt citing the fact that Hayden was making excuses, more so the contridtion in his comments...........the fact he said at the end - but I dont want to go making excuses Just made me laugh thats all.

I'd added the comment about biaggi coz I think I'm funny........and thats the best I could do. I do think NH whinges a bit though - probably just the same amount as every other rider who lines up on teh grid each weekend - but he does make his fair share of comments and I read these and hear the boys on Eurosport talking about them more so than the other riders.

Although having said that he kept stum about his dogdy shoulder going into Valencia.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BEN @ Mar 28 2007, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Man.............thats sure did fill the database up!!

2. I'll respond where you quoted me
RJ - I wasnt citing the fact that Hayden was making excuses, more so the contridtion in his comments...........the fact he said at the end - but I dont want to go making excuses Just made me laugh thats all.
1. Yeah, I had alot of time on my hads yesterday. I really should get another hobby, like learning a new language ore learning how to play another instrument or something. I know, it's sick of me to spend so much time on the site. But its a bit your fault for making this addicting site.


2. Ah, I get it. Yeah, you're right, ending it with that line is a bit funny. I think I may have read into the comment too much. I just froze when I read you comparing him to Biaggi in that way. (Though really, I think you may find that I have great respect for Biaggi and comparing him in other areas wouldn't be a bad thing for me.) But thanks for the clarification, ha-ha, I get it. Maybe those "fuel" fumes are making him dizzy or a bit schizophrenic, eh.

Another world record for jumkie! Congrats matey!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Babel, I agree with your points 3 & 4, BUT

1. & 2. Seem contradictory. It is a fine line between excuses and legitimate explanations. All to often these explanations are perceived by fans of the other guy as excuses and vis versa.

Absolutly agreed. That will allways be the case. No way to avoid that I'm affraid.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So explain to me how Hayden's comments should be "branded" (which implies vilified) as Biaggi? You don’t think Rossi’s or Melandri’s comments should be “branded” akin to Biaggi’s supposed “excuses”, right? Were Hayden’s comments dishonest? Are you in the position to say they are exaggerated? Was there or was there not a problem? He did in fact fade, that was plenty obvious, and so did he suddenly become a worse rider or was there some mechanical issue?
Maybe I used the wrong word. I meant "stamped" as the new Biaggi.
I really didn't take any particular side to Hayden’s problem in that post. What I meant was that when you as a bystander get hammered in that he is such a saint in all respects, the threshold for excuses (and other issues as well) are lowered for all but the Hayden fans. In fact it's the similar thing as I mentioned in another thread: When you’re a WC, flashing your victory by logos and helmet designs and have a certain amount of fans that screams: his worthy, his the best.... you better show what you can do, or else everyone will be over him and start pecking.

Back to his statement: It's hard to say if this was a real problem. What I dislike is the double talking: There was something wrong with the petrol, but I'm not going to make excuses. He just did! Even if it was a valid explanation he actually made that into an excuse. I can’t find any examples right now but my impression is that this is not the first time, just that it was more obvious now then usually. He does his fair share of complaining, he just does so in a more polite and “gentle” way. That's my opinion on that. And before you blow a gasket, I don't mean that in a bad way. They all ..... and complain, see below.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Here is what I think; Rossi fans vilified Biaggi because he challenged him. Whatever he said was always seen as excuse and never accepted as legitimate explanations.
Honestly I always listen to what the riders say. There is more often than not some truth in what they say. How much truth and how much BS are up to the reader to analyse. Because they all come up with some BS from time to time. In my experience road racers are a group that always has excuses for (almost) everything. Often it is based on a kind of self defending logic: To go fast you are totally dependent on trusting your self and your bike. When ever you crash or you go slow you have a need to blame that on something that either is now fixed or something that was outside your control. It's simple and effective psychology.
But some are worse than others, and Biaggi was one of the worst. Your suggestion would have more weight if Biaggi was Rossi's main challenger but for most of those years he wasn't and nobody (none of Rossi's fans) really cared anymore, but he was still a whiner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I agree with you that legitimate explanations have their place in the final analysis of a rider/team's performance. But it sure seems a bit bias when the fans of the opposition claim them to be excuse when it’s not their guy and explanations when its their guy. It's a difficult proposition; I really don't know how to decipher myself. But as long as this enigma cannot be solved, the comment will always be perceived by the once inclinations.

jupp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 28 2007, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>that quite funny you say this buddy.
wasnt checa on a rc212v as well ?
isnt checa bigger than hayden ?
wasnt checa ahead of hayden at jerez ?


not a lot of difference really.
Rog, I think you are mis reading. I quoted Pete because he was promoting some "supposed" excuses by others, (which by the way did not appear on this thread), to say that he (Pete) was promoting this idea himself. I said that the bike is smaller as a fact: 800>990. That's the fact. But to say that anybody was making up an excuse for Hayden is not true, so I'm calling Pete on it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rog, I think you are mis reading. I quoted Pete because he was promoting some "supposed" excuses by others, (which by the way did not appear on this thread), to say that he (Pete) was promoting this idea himself. I said that the bike is smaller as a fact: 800>990. That's the fact. But to say that anybody was making up an excuse for Hayden is not true, so I'm calling Pete on it.
oh i see. so am i to take it then that if hayden said the rc212v is to small for him you would also believe this to be a bit of a lame excuse bearing in mind that checa did ok on it and the links i posted show that the diamentions are almost identical.
just wondering what you personal thoughts are on this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 28 2007, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh i see. so am i to take it then that if hayden said the rc212v is to small for him you would also believe this to be a bit of a lame excuse bearing in mind that checa did ok on it and the links i posted show that the diamentions are almost identical.
just wondering what you personal thoughts are on this.
If the bikes are all the same, then I don't see anybody having any issues. It’s not the riders' fault if one is bigger/smaller or whatever. I have already said this before. It's just that pete was saying that this issue was being sited to excuse Hayden. Which was not true. No excuses, he didn't perform well.

Off topic maybe, but, as to the change this year to 800s: The MotoGP class is supposedly the premier class; but they’ve made them more akin to the support classes, which in my opinion, is a step backwards. Clearly, this idea of safety has been debunked by the increase corner speeds, where in fact most accidents occur. In the past, the two stroke machines where so powerful and temperamental it took an extraordinary person to contend at that class. The 800s are so close to the 250 (which are really like 600s) that even the WSBK times have trumped some of the MotoGP bikes. I think this is a turn for the worse. I say give the premier class liter+ engines (1000+) and take away any issues that may arise by rider’s physical characteristics (at least minimize this idea that the smaller a bike the more advantageous the smaller rider may have). Which certainly has some credence when you look at the physical characteristics of the 125 and 250 riders, it is undeniable and evident that big guys mare absent. Which if you noticed, is not the case in Superbike series. If I had it my way, I'd bring back the two stoke-500s. Then lets see who's who on this beast. Perhaps a thread dedicated to this topic would be more appropriate rather than on this thread.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Frankly, you questioning his “desire” is mind-boggling, have you followed his career to be making such statements? Let me see, what if I said, Rossi lost the title last year because he lacked “desire”. Would I be out of line?

I think his results this year are very frustrating for him; beyond your comprehension. But lack of “desire” and will to do better is certainly not the question.

Sorry Jumkie, I only call things as I see them. Yes I have watched Nicky hayden for several years, starting during the season he beat his brother for the AMA supersport title. When he was racing in the AMA Nicky was a fierce competitor and would let nothing stand in his way of victory. His aggression and desire to "beat the other guy" has diminished significantly since moving to Motogp. I think that if you really search your memory banks you will admit this to be true. I actually believe that if he would be more aggressive (without crashing) that he would contend for another title or at least make a better showing than he has this season. The main cause for this is the man who was his riding coach for two seasons-Doug Chandler. Chandler if you recall won three AMA superbike titles riding the Muzzy Kawasaki. If you recall his style it was very conservative and was summed up in the statement "Let the race come to you". That is very well if you have a superior bike (like the ZX-7 was). This is clearly not the case yet this season. Being conservative will see him shuffled towards the bottom of the standings. I would love to see him mixing it up with the front runners, but to do this he cannot wait for the race to come to him but go and get it. This is why I question his desire to fight it out for every position. I do not question his desire to win, that much is clear, just his "fight" which unfortunately seems to have left him. Surgically removed by Doug (Mr. Conservative) Chandler. Please do not think I am a Chandler-hater I am not. I just dont think his approach will work in the competitive cuisinart that is Motogp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 28 2007, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry Jumkie, I only call things as I see them. Yes I have watched Nicky hayden for several years, starting during the season he beat his brother for the AMA supersport title. When he was racing in the AMA Nicky was a fierce competitor and would let nothing stand in his way of victory. His aggression and desire to "beat the other guy" has diminished significantly since moving to Motogp. I think that if you really search your memory banks you will admit this to be true. I actually believe that if he would be more aggressive (without crashing) that he would contend for another title or at least make a better showing than he has this season. The main cause for this is the man who was his riding coach for two seasons-Doug Chandler. Chandler if you recall won three AMA superbike titles riding the Muzzy Kawasaki. If you recall his style it was very conservative and was summed up in the statement "Let the race come to you". That is very well if you have a superior bike (like the ZX-7 was). This is clearly not the case yet this season. Being conservative will see him shuffled towards the bottom of the standings. I would love to see him mixing it up with the front runners, but to do this he cannot wait for the race to come to him but go and get it. This is why I question his desire to fight it out for every position. I do not question his desire to win, that much is clear, just his "fight" which unfortunately seems to have left him. Surgically removed by Doug (Mr. Conservative) Chandler. Please do not think I am a Chandler-hater I am not. I just dont think his approach will work in the competitive cuisinart that is Motogp.

Good call mate. To be honest I lost all interest in "Dud" Chandler (not my words, but the words of Michael Scott and plenty others) when he dropped out of GP. His style of riding made him a serious no mark in GP. Both he and DuHamel went off to have very successful US careers after making little or no impression on the world stage.

Maybe if Hayden was mentored by a proven GP rider we would see a very different side of him. Having Doohan on his side certainly didn't hinder Rossi when he moved up to 500s, and the riders that KR Snr mentored (Rainey etc) had a bit of a leg up there too.

I think Hayboy has more to give, but he very rarely seems to take the fight to the other guys. maybe Doohan should be mentoring him, theres a guy who never waited for any race to come to him, and his record speaks volumes.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 28 2007, 08:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Hayboy has more to give, but he very rarely seems to take the fight to the other guys. maybe Doohan should be mentoring him, theres a guy who never waited for any race to come to him, and his record speaks volumes.

Pete
bang on pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 28 2007, 08:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Hayboy has more to give, but he very rarely seems to take the fight to the other guys. maybe Doohan should be mentoring him, theres a guy who never waited for any race to come to him, and his record speaks volumes.

Pete

I don't disagree with what you are saying but would Nicky actually feel the need for a mentor having already won the championship. Someone like Doohan would most likely be of benefit to Nicky but he may feel it is a step in the wrong direction having won the title without such a person in place.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 28 2007, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I actually believe that if he would be more aggressive (without crashing) that he would contend for another title or at least make a better showing than he has this season.

2. The main cause for this is the man who was his riding coach for two seasons-Doug Chandler.

3. I just dont think his approach will work in the competitive cuisinart that is Motogp.
Hi ogunski, you made some good points. Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps it was this word "desire" that I take issue with. I can remember the very moment I became a Hayden fan, it was after an interview where he came in second place after battling for the race win the entire race back in his dirt track days and early road racing. I hadn't seen him before, or at least paid much attention to him. But as he was interviewed on the podium, and the reporter was all excited about the battle and went on and on about how an exciting race it was, this kid could only manage to squeeze out his disappointment for coming second. This kid went on to apologize to his sponsors and the fans for not winning, but the reality was that everybody was grateful to be treated to a race that is still ingrained in my memory for a great battle. But here is this kid, whom I've never seen spilling his heart with disappointment for what could have gone either way. It was fascinating and intriguing to me to see a person express so much “desire” to win that it moved me to become an instant fan. I've been a fan ever since. So I have associated this guy with desire, desire to win, and disappointment when this is not achieved.

Here is the thing I don't get; I saw some of the mid-packer riders of the race mixing it up. All of wish I feel want to win. And I wonder, do these guys have the desire to win? Even the last guy, say a Nakano, or a Hoffman, do they lack desire? Is that what impedes their success? I'm not asking rhetorically, and I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond; but you got me thinking about this. As a former Marine who was involved in the first Persian Gulf War, I remember the platoon sergeant (who had been a Vietnam veteran) say to me, "What's gonna keep you alive out in the field is your 'desire' to stay alive." Now granted, this is completely different (lets not go into that), but it was interesting to me that this idea of "desire" was something that I wrestled with. Did it mean that lack of desire was to blame for undesired outcomes? If you ever been in any kind of organized sports, coaches frequently say, "You got to want it more than the next guy!" in other words, you need more desire. I don't know, but it remains a bit of an enigma to me when wondering about a competitor's "desire."

Certainly for me, I think Hayden has the same "desire" or say "hunger" to win as much as say Rossi, or Hopkins, or Edwards or anybody on the grid. I think they all wont to be king of the mountain and have sacrificed a better part of their youth to have that opportunity.

2. Your comments about Doug Chandler are intriguing. I think his character is a cool and collected one and may be mistaken for lacking fire. Actually, when I think of him, I think of a motto I hear in off-road racing: You must first finish-to-finish first. I think your comments about Doug are fair. But I would listen to what a three time champion had to say, wouldn’t you?

3. I'm assuming you are talking about Hayden (not Chandler). Well. I think his approach worked well enough to earn him a championship. It is those non-Hayden fans that that have branded/characterized his championship performance as un-exciting or un-spectacular. For me, it was quite the opposite; I was on the edge of my seat every race. And the last two races were at a fever's pitch of drama, anticipation, and excitement. It was a rollercoaster of emotion in the form of agony from the brink of defeat, to the summit of ecstasy.

Final notes: I think Hayden will get this sorted out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 28 2007, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good call mate. To be honest I lost all interest in "Dud" Chandler (not my words, but the words of Michael Scott and plenty others) when he dropped out of GP. His style of riding made him a serious no mark in GP. Both he and DuHamel went off to have very successful US careers after making little or no impression on the world stage.

Maybe if Hayden was mentored by a proven GP rider we would see a very different side of him. Having Doohan on his side certainly didn't hinder Rossi when he moved up to 500s, and the riders that KR Snr mentored (Rainey etc) had a bit of a leg up there too.

I think Hayboy has more to give, but he very rarely seems to take the fight to the other guys. maybe Doohan should be mentoring him, theres a guy who never waited for any race to come to him, and his record speaks volumes.

Pete
Pete you make some excellent points for a mindless cheerleader. Are you on steroids or any mental enhancing drugs since your previously ........ posts?

I agree almost everything you said here. You are right on, when you talk about the effect of who is whispering in your ear. Doohan and Roberts are perhaps the two guys I have tremendous respect for in the paddock and certainly must affect and infuse their spirit into the riders; that are privilege enough to have them in their corner. Hayden has his dad. But I think in MotoGP I have felt that Earl Hayden has not been fully accepted and even perhaps looked down upon as a country Hill Billy with not much to contribute by the "smarter geniuses" surrounding Nicky. I credit Earl Hayden for rearing three outstanding motorcycle racers, of which all three have won championships at various levels, and two of them at the higher levels. (Roger, the youngest, being runner up to his brother no-less. I expect him to win a title before it’s all over). My point here is that Earl is no longer the principal person whispering in Nicky’s ear, but perhaps a team of "self-proclaim" "geniuses of the paddock are now incharge of influencing him. On top of that, Earl Hayden is tending to his two boys in the states as well. So God only knows who and what is being pumped into Nicky's head.

Either way, as they say in boxing, your corner man can’t fight the fight for you.

Hayden's got to fight himself. I believe he has the desire to do this. I don’t think he suddenly has become a crap rider. He has succeeded at every level he has ridden in from youth to adult. Every year since he arrived to MotoGP he has improved in the standings. I expect him to eventually get out of this horrible funk he’s in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 28 2007, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't disagree with what you are saying but would Nicky actually feel the need for a mentor having already won the championship. Someone like Doohan would most likely be of benefit to Nicky but he may feel it is a step in the wrong direction having won the title without such a person in place.
Having Mick Doohan in your corner could never be a bad thing (unless your goal is to keep both your legs in tacked). Hell I'd want him in my corner if only to help me get my bike out of the garage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 10:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Having Mick Doohan in your corner could never be a bad thing (unless your goal is to keep both your legs in tacked). Hell I'd want him in my corner if only to help me get my bike out of the garage.

Looking at the bigger picture, I think that Doohan could bring a lot to Hayboys corner. I dont think (as valentino is God said) it would be a backward step, hayboy has lifted a title but even the most brainwashed Haydonette (Hi Jumkie) would have to admit that Haybales form aint knockin on Micks door yet!

Ive said it loadsa times before, there is a difference between being a champion and being a multi champion. Personally, I dont see Hayfield stepping up to the next level. The guy can ride, no question, but i just dont see him taking his career up another notch the way Rossi, Doohan, Hailwood and co have.

I would hope he doesnt follow Roberts Jnr into "Oh my god, they Killed Kenny" territory, but I think the chips are down now. Everyone is getting used to the new bikes. Whether you a re big, normal sized, small or even Pestrosa sized, eveyone is changing their style to suit the new bikes.

The arguement that the 800 suits 250 riders more than superbike riders is kinda blown out of the water when Edwards hits the podium in the second race of the year. I think that maybe the 800s suit GP riders more than the old 990s. As Ive said before, nobody jumped on an NSR, YZR or RGV for the last race of the year and kicked everyones butt like Bayliss did last year. Foggy and Russell tried, but soon had their tails between their legs. Maybe the style of riding required for the 800 is nearer to "old school" Gp riding than the 990 was.

The season will unfold in time, but I will stick to my guns that, without a major shake up, Hayfeverboys day is passed. I think that this season will be a fight for supremacy between the up and coming youngsters and Rossi. And I think it would take a brave man to bet against the Doctor.

Pete