**SPOILER** Jerez Race

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is the thing I don't get; I saw some of the mid-packer riders of the race mixing it up. All of wish I feel want to win. And I wonder, do these guys have the desire to win? Even the last guy, say a Nakano, or a Hoffman, do they lack desire? Is that what impedes their success? I'm not asking rhetorically, and I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond; but you got me thinking about this. As a former Marine who was involved in the first Persian Gulf War, I remember the platoon sergeant (who had been a Vietnam veteran) say to me, "What's gonna keep you alive out in the field is your 'desire' to stay alive."

^^^Cheers, Jumkie. I also served in the first Gulf War. I was a squid, with a search and rescue team. I was initially stationed aboard the U.S.S. LaSalle AGF-3, the admirals flag ship, under admiral fogarty. Once my 1 year was up on the LaSalle I was stationed at the base in Bahrain for another 3 years. I mostly conducted training missions for the locals and got sent TAD (temporary active duty) all over the gulf and North Africa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well at least this guy managed to squeeze in two lines about Rossi's win before he went into his "clever" and "original" bashing paragraph about Hayden.

Glad you enjoyed it - I expect to have the opportunity to write many such posts throughout this season as Valentino shows that he is still the best rider by far, and your limp excuse for a world champion confirms that when Rossi's bike is halfway-ridable and the best of the rest aren't in hospital or walking wounded, he is just another also-ran.

Ha - ain't payback a .....?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your comments about Doug Chandler are intriguing. I think his character is a cool and collected one and may be mistaken for lacking fire. Actually, when I think of him, I think of a motto I hear in off-road racing: You must first finish-to-finish first. I think your comments about Doug are fair. But I would listen to what a three time champion had to say, wouldn’t you?

Final notes: I think Hayden will get this sorted out.

^^ I think Doug's approach works very well when the rider using it has a dominant bike under him(her). When Doug used this approach the ZX-7 was miles ahead of the competition. His steady, methodical approach worked well enough to win three AMA Superbike championships. He would get a decent start and work his way through the field. Once he got to the front he simply checked out and won by a country mile. However, once the competition (Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha (R-7)) caught up and passed Kawasaki as far as the overall race package goes we saw Doug slowly fade into obscurity. Nicky's championship was the result of his being able to keep the bike rubber side down while everyone else crashed and got hurt. I dont think the same strategy can be counted on to work all the time. I am sure the way Rossi kept everyone at arms length was a result of the lessons learned last season. Naturally when everyone has a good setup at future tracks then he will be forced to battle. Nicky needs to be willing to respond when someone makes a pass. I also hope he and Honda can get it together soon.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 28 2007, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>^^ I think Doug's approach works very well when the rider using it has a dominant bike under him(her). When Doug used this approach the ZX-7 was miles ahead of the competition. His steady, methodical approach worked well enough to win three AMA Superbike championships. He would get a decent start and work his way through the field. Once he got to the front he simply checked out and won by a country mile. However, once the competition (Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha (R-7)) caught up and passed Kawasaki as far as the overall race package goes we saw Doug slowly fade into obscurity. Nicky's championship was the result of his being able to keep the bike rubber side down while everyone else crashed and got hurt. I dont think the same strategy can be counted on to work all the time. I am sure the way Rossi kept everyone at arms length was a result of the lessons learned last season. Naturally when everyone has a good setup at future tracks then he will be forced to battle. Nicky needs to be willing to respond when someone makes a pass. I also hope he and Honda can get it together soon.

Good post mate

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 28 2007, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also served in the first Gulf War. I was a squid, with a search and rescue team. I was initially stationed aboard the U.S.S. LaSalle AGF-3
Excellent. My nephew is a squid aboard the USS Enterprise at the moment. I served aboard the USS Belleau Wood LHA. I also was stationed in Japan, Quantico, Long Beach, CA and Fort Polk. Thanks for your service. Honor, Courage, Commitment. Semper Fi.

Now I gotta get back to this Dash character…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dash @ Mar 28 2007, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. your limp excuse for a world champion confirms that

2. when Rossi's bike is halfway-ridable

3. Ha - ain't payback a .....?
1. Please, quote the excuses I’ve made for Hayden not performing well the last two races….I’ll wait.

2. So when Rossi has a “half-way ridable” bike he will win? I’ll take that as you blaming the terrible bike he rides when he doesn’t win then. I know you are new and all, but there is still time for you to go post all the excuses you can dream up for him not winning last event on the Casey race thread (Qatar). Here, I’ll even give you a link to the thread, have fun…add your excuse here...

3. Payback for what? I think Rossi was more disappointed in himself for not clinching the title when he should have than angry at Hayden for his performances. Or did you not see the last race of the season?

You almost make it sound like Rossi is on the Ilmor ("half-way ridable").

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 29 2007, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Please, quote the excuses I’ve made for Hayden not performing well the last two races….I’ll wait.

I think this is a semantics issue in what i've intended and how you've interpreted it - when someone in my country says 'a limp excuse for a world champion' they don't generally mean that you made excuses for him being world champion. Rather, he himself is the limp excuse - basically i'm implying that he's quite crap, though quite lucky (but you can probably tell that's my sentiment already).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 29 2007, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2. So when Rossi has a “half-way ridable” bike he will win? I’ll take that as you blaming the terrible bike he rides when he doesn’t win then. I know you are new and all, but there is still time for you to go post all the excuses you can dream up for him not winning last event on the Casey race thread (Qatar). Here, I’ll even give you a link to the thread, have fun…add your excuse here...

Not my view at all - please don't try to put words into my mouth. My opinion on this is - when Rossi has a setup that is somewhere above junk, he will do good, he will make the difference. He doesn't need the near-flawless setup that someone like Biaggi, and it seems Hayden, require. But as Valentino has said himself, super-heroes only exist in books, he can't win every race and every championship, and he was beaten fair and square in Qatar.

Also, because I don't have many hundreds of posts, it's wrong to assume that I'm new to the sport - I haven't missed a race since I discovered this great madness back in 2003. I've traveled overseas specifically to attend grand prixs. My passion and interest in it is such that I drive for an hour each way to a friend's place to watch every race live on satellite tv, rather than wait several more hours for it to be re-broadcast on free tv. I'm no expert but I like to think I know a reasonable amount about the sport I love so much.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 29 2007, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>3. Payback for what? I think Rossi was more disappointed in himself for not clinching the title when he should have than angry at Hayden for his performances. Or did you not see the last race of the season?

You almost make it sound like Rossi is on the Ilmor ("half-way ridable").

Your're right, i'm sure his disappointment was in himself. I think my intent is misinterpreted again - this is basically me responding to everyone who i've seen say stuff like - hayden can beat Rossi in a straight battle, the numbers don't l1e, blah blah blah.... I let that stuff bother me more than I should, and for me it's nice to see the best rider back where he should be.

Men RJ… bloody hell! I’ll ask Ben to instate an optional quoting for you just like: a] Agree or b] Disagree… and that’s that! (It’s a joke mate, all in good hands).

Now to quote you and I would like to state a little bit of an important point here:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is the thing I don't get; I saw some of the mid-packer riders of the race mixing it up. All of wish I feel want to win. And I wonder, do these guys have the desire to win? Even the last guy, say a Nakano, or a Hoffman, do they lack desire? Is that what impedes their success?

Ok, but then again not all ‘mid-packers’ have been on the same sit at an Official HRC Team for over 4 years now, most ‘mid-packers’ are at satellite teams and do not get Factory treatment, even other factory Teams cannot keep up (Kawas & Suz, a bit better lately), this is not to really be considered as a ‘lack’ if they are under inferior conditions. Stoner improved a lot from a satellite Honda to a factory Ducati (Still from Honda!). And like his lots of historical examples. Say Capirossi is obviously down, sorry mate, may be just me but I’ll excuse him these couple of races. So yes, Hayden is the Champion, he has one of the best bikes if not the best Team, and definitely the most resources, and I don’t think either that Official HRC is putting all the eggs in Pedrosa’s basket. Therefore, to sum up my point is that Yeap; Hayden’s got all the pressure on performing well!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 28 2007, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Final notes…

Wow, never saw that one coming! (You know me man; It’s a joke mate, all in good hands).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dash @ Mar 28 2007, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I think this is a semantics issue...

2. Rather, he himself is the limp excuse - basically i'm implying that he's quite crap...

3. please don't try to put words into my mouth. My opinion on this is - when Rossi has a setup that is somewhere above junk, he will do good...

4. He doesn't need the near-flawless setup that someone like Biaggi, and it seems Hayden, require.

5. Also, because I don't have many hundreds of posts, it's wrong to assume that I'm new to the sport...

6. I'm no expert but I like to think I know a reasonable amount...

7. I think my intent is misinterpreted again - this is basically me responding to everyone who i've seen say stuff like - hayden can beat Rossi in a straight battle, the numbers don't l1e, blah blah blah....

8. I let that stuff bother me more than I should, and for me it's nice to see the best rider back where he should be.

1. I’ll take this as you didn’t find any excuses.

2. Bold statement, so Hayden is crap, well this crappy guy beat your boy. Or would you like to rewrite the way MotoGP awards titles to suit your purpose?

3. & 4. No need to put “words in your mouth” I think you do just find sticking your foot in there yourself. So you say Rossi only needs “above junk” for him to make “the difference”, well, I think he had a bike that was much more “above junk” and didn’t manage to “make the difference” in Qatar. Uhm, oops, maybe he needed “more power” or something? Please, you do your boy a disservice by making such claims. Yes, Rossi is good, but he hasn’t exactly been wining races on “junk.” And this notion that seems to be popular here that Hondas are the NASA developed and Yamaha is “crap” is not accurate in the least. Rossi has taken plenty of great bikes to victory and has lost plenty of races on sub par machinery. How do you think he would do on a Kawasaki? I’d say that’s “above junk”? My advice, don’t go making bold statements that sound ridiculous, they make you look like a run of the mill Rossi worshipper, not to be confuse with the Rossi fans.

5. Didn’t assume you are new, I simply stated that you were new to this site. Welcome aboard.

6. I’m not an expert, I just play one on TV.

7. Interesting, I keep “misinterpreting” your meaning when you decide to change your meaning. Ok, I’ll play along. So you are responding to people saying Hayden can beat “Rossi in a straight up battle”. And you are voicing you disagreement Right? Let me ask you this, did Pedrosa “beat” Hopkins in a “straight up battle” this weekend? How about did Edwards “beat” Stoner in a “straight up battle” this weekend? My answer would be YES on both accounts. Do they need to run eachother off the track and scrape paint for it to be a “straight up battle”? Do both contenders in the battle have to stay on the track and not dump their bike on account of rider error? Does one of the contenders need to “win” the race to count as “beating” the other guy? I’m sure you watched the Jerez race last year (since you drive an hour to watch it and all); did Loris beat everybody on the track even though he was so ahead that nobody was even in the camera shot last year? Not always are races decide by the two front runners scraping paint until the last bend before the finish line (these races are super rare), most of the time the winner “beats” his competitors with time to spare. So since they didn’t “battle straight up” (as you imply) did the winner win? Of course. This logic follows that Pedrosa “beat” Edwards in a “straight up battle” this weekend, and Edwards “beat” Elias and Casey and etc. this weekend. So to answer your concern. As I see it, Hayden has “beaten” Rossi “straight up.” Every time Hayden finished above Rossi, I call that “beating” the guy after you. Or are you now gonna claim some “misinterpretation” of what it means to “beat straight up”. Its not Hayden’s fault that Rossi crashed at the end of the season. Getting “beat” straight up means you also have to keep the bike right side up. If you don’t, then you got “beat”.

8. The best rider was on top at Qatar…this weekend at Jerez, it was Rossi.

You said: "I let that stuff bother me more than I should..." This was the only common ground I think we have at the moment. (Well friendships gotta start somewhere I guess).

Carlos Checa wave to Hayden on Lap 21?

Anyone one know why Checa waived to Hayden after passing him on lap 21? Was his thanking Hayden for lettting him pass, or apologizing for something? He lift his left hand just after passing Hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 29 2007, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Carlos Checa wave to Hayden on Lap 21?

Anyone one know why Checa waived to Hayden after passing him on lap 21? Was his thanking Hayden for lettting him pass, or apologizing for something? He lift his left hand just after passing Hayden.
i think he was waving goodbye

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 29 2007, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Carlos Checa wave to Hayden on Lap 21?

Anyone one know why Checa waived to Hayden after passing him on lap 21? Was his thanking Hayden for lettting him pass, or apologizing for something? He lift his left hand just after passing Hayden.

You mean here? Must felt guilty for breaking team orders!
(It’s a joke, all be cool!)
1485:attachment]

Anyway, now that I brought it up… ‘Team Orders’… What happens when different tyre suppliers provide the same Manufacturer in respect to Team Orders? I mean Bridgestone & Michelin supplying Honda? Team orders ought to be flushed wouldn’t they?

- I recall on Brasil ’04.
- Camel Honda Biaggi/Michelin & Tamada/Bridgestone.
- Championship standings Rossi & Gibernau 126, Biaggi 113… Tamada 44.
- Gibernau & Rossi fell leaving open 25 points.
- Biaggi needed them and Tamada was way down the order.
-Who cares about Team Orders or it’s about tyre sponsors too… Anyway Tamada just kick the crap out of Team ‘Nothing’ and won the race!

VHMP, Brilliant! how did you find a picture of the wave (goodbye) so quickly?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 29 2007, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>VHMP, Brilliant! how did you find a picture of the wave (goodbye) so quickly?

No sweat Mate! Just froze the image at www.motogp.com and am leaving their copyright on top…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 29 2007, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I’ll take this as you didn’t find any excuses.
......
...
..
You said: "I let that stuff bother me more than I should..." This was the only common ground I think we have at the moment. (Well friendships gotta start somewhere I guess).

You know what mate? - That's all fine with me. You have your opinions on the matter and I have mine, and we don't have to agree. I'd rather not spend my time and your time arguing this back and forth. I stand by everything I have said and I really do feel like you might be misunderstanding some of what I've intended by my choice of words. In essence, I think Valentino Rossi is a great, great rider, and Hayden, who you are clearly a fan of, beat him to the flag in 2006. That's history now, and it won't be changed. I don't think he is close to Valentino in riding skill, and I think he benefited a lot from others' misfortune last year. But so what, Alex Criville did it, why not Hayden too? I don't see him being in the top 3 at the close of 2007, and his podiums will be more scarce than last year. I think mid-pack is his home for this year, and it's deserving. Let's see what happens then, yeah?

Can't we all just get along?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dash @ Mar 29 2007, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You know what mate? - That's all fine with me. You have your opinions on the matter and I have mine, and we don't have to agree. I'd rather not spend my time and your time arguing this back and forth. I stand by everything I have said and I really do feel like you might be misunderstanding some of what I've intended by my choice of words. In essence, I think Valentino Rossi is a great, great rider, and Hayden, who you are clearly a fan of, beat him to the flag in 2006. That's history now, and it won't be changed. I don't think he is close to Valentino in riding skill, and I think he benefited a lot from others' misfortune last year. But so what, Alex Criville did it, why not Hayden too? I don't see him being in the top 3 at the close of 2007, and his podiums will be more scarce than last year. I think mid-pack is his home for this year, and it's deserving. Let's see what happens then, yeah?

Can't we all just get along?
Chalk up another friend made on this site. Wow, I think that may be a record. Usually I argue with a person about a month before we find some common ground. Cool. "Hell I like you, you can come over and F... my sister." (Don't get excited, I'm just quoting my favorite movie Full Metal Jacket). Some of my best buddies on here are guys I disagree with 99.999% of the time. It’s that .0001% that bonds us in harmony.

2006 Hayden (fair and square)
2007_______ (to be anounced)



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Mar 29 2007, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i think he was waving goodbye
Haha. Rog, you win the funny post of the week award. Good one man.

<Checa (BTW the tears were of joy for him finally making the top ten)

And here I thought Checa was giving him the finger like every other Spaniard.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dash @ Mar 30 2007, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and I think he benefited a lot from others' misfortune last year. But so what, Alex Criville did it, why not Hayden too? I don't see him being in the top 3 at the close of 2007, and his podiums will be more scarce than last year. I think mid-pack is his home for this year, and it's deserving. Let's see what happens then, yeah?

Hayden rode beyond what the others were capable of last year, using both his skills and his circumstances, the same two things that make up any world title. His world title is no less worthy than any other individual title win, although you may be less impressed by it based on any number of things (riding, "luck", equipment, personalities, blah blah blah). So yes riders like Rossi stand out above the others for being all time greats, but that doesn't mean he is ALWAYS the best (in 2006 he was not). And please, whatever your opinions on hayden may be could you please reffrain from criville bashing!!

As for Haydens mid-pack performances this year, yes they have been quite deserving so far and you obviously have no faith in him to improve (i disagree), but the fact remains he was the main man last year, not a mid pack rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 30 2007, 07:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden rode beyond what the others were capable of last year, using both his skills and his circumstances, the same two things that make up any world title. His world title is no less worthy than any other individual title win, although you may be less impressed by it based on any number of things (riding, "luck", equipment, personalities, blah blah blah). So yes riders like Rossi stand out above the others for being all time greats, but that doesn't mean he is ALWAYS the best (in 2006 he was not). And please, whatever your opinions on hayden may be could you please reffrain from criville bashing!!

As for Haydens mid-pack performances this year, yes they have been quite deserving so far and you obviously have no faith in him to improve (i disagree), but the fact remains he was the main man last year, not a mid pack rider.

Hi Tom, welcome back, how was your trip? And the live race?

PS. There's like 20 threads for you... and a couple of essays from my friend Jumkie!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 31 2007, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Tom, welcome back, how was your trip? And the live race?

PS. There's like 20 threads for you... and a couple of essays from my friend Jumkie!


Hi, it was excellent thanks, truly something special. The 250cc race blew me away and certainly got me my money's worth, all the rest was such a bonus. I reccomend Jerez to everyone, but remind you all to buy grandstand tickets. The main standing area in the stadium section was full before the sun came up.

I'll be trying to catch up over the next few days and i've already left a few bits and bobs around but please be patient with me if i have missed things.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 30 2007, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Tom, welcome back, how was your trip? And the live race?

PS. There's like 20 threads for you... and a couple of essays from my friend Jumkie!

Welcome back. The forum has been all energized this week. You could imagine all the crap that's been flying...