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QATAR 2012: RACE

So I had a think, and I've come to the conclusion that Rossi's and Spies' fates are intertwined.



In a nutshell, I think Spies is still riding Rossi's old chassis. The Rossi-chassis supposedly has a flexible headstock that improves feel. Rossi's chassis derivation is setup to work with a softer front and harder rear (classic Rossi) or it is at least designed to create that feeling (according to Spies last season). The new medium rear tire, mixed with the old hard front, has hurt the balance of Ben's bike, and he's trying to ride around problems he can't really ride around. Imo, Yamaha wanted him to abandon the old chassis, but Spies refused. This has created friction between Spies and Yamaha and Spies and his team. Jarvis issued a public ultimatum.



Imo, the flexible headstock design was quite advanced, and it is not something FTR and Ducati can recreate easily. I believe Rossi is concerned primarily with the front end feel. From the perspective of the team, a flexible chassis changes almost nothing other than the rider's mental approach, and Ducati/FTR might not see it as an effective development. Imo, this is causing friction between Ducati and Rossi. JB is siding more or less with Ducati b/c he knows throwing money at a flexible chassis won't really change the performance of the bike, only the feel, which will change as soon as the new tires are released anyway. Rossi is convinced he needs chassis feel regardless of future tire developments, imo.



That's my theory. Spies is on a bike that is designed to work according to Rossi's riding/setup philosophy. The tire imbalance has basically rendered his chassis obsolete. Without a flexible chassis, Rossi is lost at sea, complaining for updates to the bike (most likely the chassis). The only hope for either of them is to find a miracle setup or to rely on the handling characteristics of the new front tire.
 
hawkdriver said:
Does Prezioso ever get criticism there? They will run out of riders before they find the next Stoner and even then it was only one championship before the Japanese caught them. The problem is the Ducati and the people behind it, not the riders. They can't build a good GP bike and they will continue to expose themselves, especially when they won't be able to land a top rider.
Click to expand...



Copying the Japanese would not be a guarantee of better success for Ducati. Suzuki and Kawasaki failed in modern MotoGP in spite of them being 100% Japanese and dedicated to building purely Japanese bikes (Suzuki a narrow V engine within a twin spar aluminum frame, Kawa a IL4 copy of the Yamaha). Problem for both? lagging behind in electronics and inability to exploit the Bridgestones. Sounds familiar...?
<
 
Ive been increasingly cynical about GP since 2007. I first started watching GP when Nicky made his way into the series.

Being a Hayden fan my level of interest has always been tied to his success. After watching him win the world championship and Then watch Honda turn their back on him and his subsequent lack of success on the Ducati has made watching GP a frustrating experience. Compound that with the ...... racing of the 800 era, a onslaught of spainards and italians getting doors opened because of their passports has made it tough to watch.

Yesterday I sat down to watch with no expectations and decided to watch as a purist and let things play out as they may with my heartstrings unattached.

What I saw was immensely pleasing. Great racing for the win, great racing for the guys just off the podium and most of all a new sense of hope.

I have been the only one for years saying that Edwards had to go. He has been mailing it in for 10 years. If he had brothers they would be named Ben and Eric. Everyone was so enamored with his soundbites they forgot the reason why we watch is the racing.

What we saw and will be seeing a lot of is fabulous racing between two young hungry teammates.

I enjoyed watching Hayden put the POS Ducati in 6 th place and be running hard all race. My expectations of him are realistic and I realize that what he showed yesterday was the best possible scenario given the circumstances.

I was very impressed with Bradl all weekend. Hes already showing that Simoncelli was totally overrated and way underachieving on the best bike on the grid. Cant wait to see how he progresses though Im skeptical that anyone will care because his personality is dry and hes not a ....... clown

I thought it fitting that the announcers for once gave Rossi little recognition. They realize that his star is waning and its time to focus on the future.

Now if only we could get Powerslide to follow suit
 
mylexicon said:
So I had a think, and I've come to the conclusion that Rossi's and Spies' fates are intertwined. In a nutshell, I think Spies is still riding Rossi's old chassis. The Rossi-chassis supposedly has a flexible headstock that improves feel. Rossi's chassis derivation is setup to work with a softer front and harder rear (classic Rossi) or it is at least designed to create that feeling (according to Spies last season). The new medium rear tire, mixed with the old hard front, has hurt the balance of Ben's bike, and he's trying to ride around problems he can't really ride around. Imo, Yamaha wanted him to abandon the old chassis, but Spies refused. This has created friction between Spies and Yamaha and Spies and his team. Jarvis issued a public ultimatum. Imo, the flexible headstock design was quite advanced, and it is not something FTR and Ducati can recreate easily. I believe Rossi is concerned primarily with the front end feel. From the perspective of the team, a flexible chassis changes almost nothing other than the rider's mental approach, and Ducati/FTR might not see it as an effective development. Imo, this is causing friction between Ducati and Rossi. JB is siding more or less with Ducati b/c he knows throwing money at a flexible chassis won't really change the performance of the bike, only the feel, which will change as soon as the new tires are released anyway. Rossi is convinced he needs chassis feel regardless of future tire developments, imo. That's my theory. Spies is on a bike that is designed to work according to Rossi's riding/setup philosophy. The tire imbalance has basically rendered his chassis obsolete. Without a flexible chassis, Rossi is lost at sea, complaining for updates to the bike (most likely the chassis). The only hope for either of them is to find a miracle setup or to rely on the handling characteristics of the new front tire.
Click to expand...



Or, swap bikes?
<
 
J4rn0 said:
Or, swap bikes?
<
Click to expand...



I thought about that, but I have a feeling that Yamaha told Spies to make a decision at the beginning of the season and stick with it. I doubt there is any rational justification for such an ultimatum, but it is exactly what people do when they don't get their way, especially if they expect to get their way before negotiations occur.
 
JohnnyKnockdown said:
Ive been increasingly cynical about GP since 2007. I first started watching GP when Nicky made his way into the series.

Being a Hayden fan my level of interest has always been tied to his success. After watching him win the world championship and Then watch Honda turn their back on him and his subsequent lack of success on the Ducati has made watching GP a frustrating experience. Compound that with the ...... racing of the 800 era, a onslaught of spainards and italians getting doors opened because of their passports has made it tough to watch.

Yesterday I sat down to watch with no expectations and decided to watch as a purist and let things play out as they may with my heartstrings unattached.

What I saw was immensely pleasing. Great racing for the win, great racing for the guys just off the podium and most of all a new sense of hope.

I have been the only one for years saying that Edwards had to go. He has been mailing it in for 10 years. If he had brothers they would be named Ben and Eric. Everyone was so enamored with his soundbites they forgot the reason why we watch is the racing.

What we saw and will be seeing a lot of is fabulous racing between two young hungry teammates.

I enjoyed watching Hayden put the POS Ducati in 6 th place and be running hard all race. My expectations of him are realistic and I realize that what he showed yesterday was the best possible scenario given the circumstances.

I was very impressed with Bradl all weekend. Hes already showing that Simoncelli was totally overrated and way underachieving on the best bike on the grid. Cant wait to see how he progresses though Im skeptical that anyone will care because his personality is dry and hes not a ....... clown

I thought it fitting that the announcers for once gave Rossi little recognition. They realize that his star is waning and its time to focus on the future.

Now if only we could get Powerslide to follow suit
Click to expand...





Great post.
 
Bridgestone proposes introduction of new specification MotoGP™ front tyre



Bridgestone will introduce a new specification front tyre for the FIM MotoGP™ World Championship, giving the twenty-one riders taking part in this year’s competition access to the very latest in tyre technology.



This new front tyre is the latest evolution of the 2012 specification MotoGP™ front tyre. This latest specification front tyre features a revised construction that further enhances rider feel and warm-up performance and was developed following analysis of performance data and rider feedback acquired in pre-season testing.



Due to the overwhelmingly positive appraisal this new front tyre received when tested by riders, Bridgestone, after consultation with Dorna, the FIM and IRTA, has agreed to replace the current front tyre with the new 2012 specification front tyre from the Silverstone round while also making a limited number of the new front tyre available for the Jerez, Estoril, Le Mans and Catalunya rounds.



Starting from Jerez, riders will be allocated two of the new specification front tyres to increase their total allocation for the race weekend to eleven front tyres. The new specification tyre will only be made available in the harder compound option, as the greater durability this option provides makes it better suited for race use. At Silverstone, when the new specification front tyre becomes the standard, the front tyre allocation will return to nine tyres
 
J4rn0 said:
Copying the Japanese would not be a guarantee of better success for Ducati. Suzuki and Kawasaki failed in modern MotoGP in spite of them being 100% Japanese and dedicated to building purely Japanese bikes (Suzuki a narrow V engine within a twin spar aluminum frame, Kawa a IL4 copy of the Yamaha). Problem for both? lagging behind in electronics and inability to exploit the Bridgestones. Sounds familiar...?
<
Click to expand...

Suzuki and Kawasaki don't need to win races in GP to sell bikes, it's purely financial for them. You did bring up an interesting point about Suzuki and their engine, how much experimenting did they do with the V angle to find the right balance for the bike. They atleast tried different configurations and they also abandoned the idea of a 90 degree engine because of bike balance. If Ducati want to stay in GP they need to get their head out of the sand, there is a difference between being different and trying to use methods that have been proven not to work.

What did Honda do to get back in the game last year, they went and poached electronic engineers from Yamaha. The lesson is stop trying to force that bike to work and find the people who know what they're doing.
 
Haven't yet watched all the FP's and QP but watched the race and the post race press conferences.



A lot of you should really get the MotoGP subscription because then you could watch the post race press conference where the podium field questions from the media. All 3 were asked about tyre wear and all 3 declared that tyre wear WAS NOT an issue at all. They actually stated that traction was better in the second half of the race. Hey but what do the riders know?



About the race. Found it to be no different really to any race of the past couple of years. The fast guys are still much faster than everybody else and the 3 seconds they showed of each CRT bike did not feel me with this great sense of a full and competitive race track. Last year there were always battles between 2 or 3 riders down the grid with big gaps between each battle the same as this race.



Lorenzo - ok race but watching him in the interviews he does not look supremely confident as he knows that he got lucky and had to ride at the limit the entire race to stay in it.



Pedrosa - same old same old if you ask me. Can follow but can not battle.



Stoner - nothing new as had several incidents of physical health effecting his races in the past. I would suggest that if he had not suffered the arm pump then it would have been a 10sec win. I found his riding style to be very boring this race and most un-Stoner like and was wondering what was up whilst watching it.



Bradl - the real deal and if every gets a factory bike in MotoGP he will do something with it.



Bautista - not the real deal and will become irrelevant like so many before him before long.



Hayden - good ride and about were he belongs good bike or bad.



Spies - haven't heard why but surely there is a reason for this result.



Rossi - mental breakdown end of story, should have retired and my prediction is he won't last season.



Dorna - fail as they keep saying it is broken and yet nothing has changed.
 
povol said:
Bridgestone proposes introduction of new specification MotoGP™ front tyre



Bridgestone will introduce a new specification front tyre for the FIM MotoGP™ World Championship, giving the twenty-one riders taking part in this year’s competition access to the very latest in tyre technology.



This new front tyre is the latest evolution of the 2012 specification MotoGP™ front tyre. This latest specification front tyre features a revised construction that further enhances rider feel and warm-up performance and was developed following analysis of performance data and rider feedback acquired in pre-season testing.



Due to the overwhelmingly positive appraisal this new front tyre received when tested by riders, Bridgestone, after consultation with Dorna, the FIM and IRTA, has agreed to replace the current front tyre with the new 2012 specification front tyre from the Silverstone round while also making a limited number of the new front tyre available for the Jerez, Estoril, Le Mans and Catalunya rounds.



Starting from Jerez, riders will be allocated two of the new specification front tyres to increase their total allocation for the race weekend to eleven front tyres. The new specification tyre will only be made available in the harder compound option, as the greater durability this option provides makes it better suited for race use. At Silverstone, when the new specification front tyre becomes the standard, the front tyre allocation will return to nine tyres
Click to expand...



Finally, an official announcement. Two front tires is a restricted allocation. I wonder if Ducati will be able to make it work over race distance, with only 1 tire to test during practice and qualifying. They did use the new front in testing so maybe they already have the data they need.
 
Evolution said:
The only ........ is you. Stoner has a long way to go before he will be at par with Rossi. As i said before, Stoner's talent in bike control is huge, but there are many racers on the grid who are better overall. If both Stoner and Rossi retired tomorrow, there is only one who will be remembered in say 10 years and beyond, and that is Rossi. The Stoner name in motoGP will only be remembered in the context of Rossi, as one of the guys Rossi used as a racing ....., aka gibrrnao, biaggi
Click to expand...

Um, by your own criteria there is only one racer better than stoner (at this time), the guy with 7 premier class titles; no-one else other than casey has more than one.



Perhaps I am overly wedded to aristotlean logic, but you seem to be arguing black is white where rossi is concerned, and white is black where stoner is concerned. Apparently the ducati is a pig holding back rossi from being on the podium or winning as he would be if riding a honda or yamaha (I agree with you btw) but that stoner is a poor racer because you found his method of winning on that bike (more races than rossi on a yamaha in the same period) aethetically displeasing, the bike apparently not imposing any limitations on how he rode .



If stoner continues to have races like qatar then his tyre management, race strategy etc comes into question, unless he has arm pump surgery and the problem resolves. However , a few races similar to this last year, with similar conclusions drawn hastily by those of your ilk, didn't stop him from winning 10 other races. I also seem to recall valentino rossi having problems with his tyres in 2007 despite his unchallenged race-craft.
 
It's all very interesting at present, regardless of your allegiance, there is no doubt the one Valentino Rossi continues to fascinate the punters, media and certainly the forums worldwide!



One thing is very clear for me, anyone who is saying that Hayden's 6th place- 30 seconds off the pace, and further off the pace than last season is a good thing is living in dreamland, its a great effort yes, but not a good thing for them at all. Does anyone honestly think that Nicky is content fighting with Rookies on sat bikes for mid-pack?????



Of course he wouldn't be happy about it, Barbera hasn't ridden a decent Motogp bike, and Nicky hasn't for years, so taking stock and pleasure in objectives of mid-pack -way off the real pace results is all they can do at present. I'm sure that nobody in the racing world believes that Nicky or Barbera or Karel will be anywhere near the factory Honda's and Yamaha's all season long, the gap is way too big. They've got several versions of the bike, and none of them are seriously competitive-and they won't be.



Rossi has finally started telling the truth of the situation, which of course we all knew has been boiling just under the surface for the past 12 months. Rossi has stated that he is there to win, not to finish mid-pack and this is the problem. Beating his teammate and a few of the sat efforts by a few seconds and still finishing 5-6th 30+seconds off the pace is not where a factory effort should be, and certainly not where a factory effort with 10 WC's between their riders should be. So for Rossi at least, either fix it, move on to something else or retire-simple. The fiasco, whilst entertaining, is ultimately horrible for all parties and is dominating headlines and discussion, when really we should be talking about what fantastic Machines the M1and RC are, Jorge's great win, and great racing-all of which were also present at Qatar.........
 
Talpa said:
It's all very interesting at present, regardless of your allegiance, there is no doubt the one Valentino Rossi continues to fascinate the punters, media and certainly the forums worldwide!



One thing is very clear for me, anyone who is saying that Hayden's 6th place- 30 seconds off the pace, and further off the pace than last season is a good thing is living in dreamland, its a great effort yes, but not a good thing for them at all. Does anyone honestly think that Nicky is content fighting with Rookies on sat bikes for mid-pack?????



Of course he wouldn't be happy about it, Barbera hasn't ridden a decent Motogp bike, and Nicky hasn't for years, so taking stock and pleasure in objectives of mid-pack -way off the real pace results is all they can do at present. I'm sure that nobody in the racing world believes that Nicky or Barbera or Karel will be anywhere near the factory Honda's and Yamaha's all season long, the gap is way too big. They've got several versions of the bike, and none of them are seriously competitive-and they won't be.



Rossi has finally started telling the truth of the situation, which of course we all knew has been boiling just under the surface for the past 12 months. Rossi has stated that he is there to win, not to finish mid-pack and this is the problem. Beating his teammate and a few of the sat efforts by a few seconds and still finishing 5-6th 30+seconds off the pace is not where a factory effort should be, and certainly not where a factory effort with 10 WC's between their riders should be. So for Rossi at least, either fix it, move on to something else or retire-simple. The fiasco, whilst entertaining, is ultimately horrible for all parties and is dominating headlines and discussion, when really we should be talking about what fantastic Machines the M1and RC are, Jorge's great win, and great racing-all of which were also present at Qatar.........
Click to expand...



A month ago you guys had him on the podium on a regular basis whilist predicting a Hayden and Barbera fiasco, what from that isn't worth reminding you guys?



Race winners did awesome but they are still a re-run of last year, as expected. What's the point?



Now, don't get everyone wrong.....we watch for the M1's and the RC's but the gossip is mostly around Vale-Ducati and forums are for that, gossip.



Racing = Dani, Jorge, Casey ,M1 & RC



Gossip & media = Valentino & Ducati.
 
I don't think that you can blame Spies' chassis on his poor performance. He was laying down the lap times in practice, easily in the top 4, until he binned it. I don't understand why, in warm up, when he knew he had a major problem he didn't hop on his spare bike that hadn't been trashed. Or was that the bike he trashed on his second crash? Poor weekend all around for everyone on that team.
 
320IDave said:
A month ago you guys had him on the podium on a regular basis whilist predicting a Hayden and Barbera fiasco, what from that isn't worth reminding you guys?
Click to expand...



I never had him on the podium, who are you guys? Never predicted Hayden & Barbera fiasco, whatever that means? I had hope for improved performance, whats wrong with that?





320IDave said:
Race winners did awesome but they are still a re-run of last year, as expected. What's the point?
Click to expand...



Only 1 race winner.......Re-Run? Did you miss it, Stoner didn't win, Jorge did, Dani came second. Order somewhat different to last year.......Stoner beaten on his favorite track, looking good for a decent season of racing, but most people are miffed at the Rossi situation and are discussing it.......not just gossip-fact as well



320IDave said:
Now, don't get everyone wrong.....we watch for the M1's and the RC's but the gossip is mostly around Vale-Ducati and forums are for that, gossip.
Click to expand...



Gossip? really for Rossi only, so explain all of the talk on stoner's arm pump then........?



320IDave said:
Racing = Dani, Jorge, Casey ,M1 & RC
Click to expand...



So why does anyone else turn up then?





320IDave said:
Gossip & media = Valentino & Ducati.
Click to expand...



Spies & Frame & Yamaha ?



Stoner & Chatter & Tyres & Honda ?



CRT's?



Marquez Pass?







No Gossip here then?
 

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