Motul Grand Prix of Japan 2016 spoilers

moto vudu said:

The tires suited Lorenzo just fine, it was the weather that didn't cooperate with him. Had every race been in perfect conditions, Lorenzo might be leading the championship or not far behind.

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You're still making these erroneous claims that Lorenzo can't win in anything but warm dry weather? The Michelin tires favor those who brake heavily; Rossi and Marquez. It's all about the tires. Never ceases to amaze me how little you actually know about a sport you purport to follow heavily.

JPSLotus said:

You're still making these erroneous claims that Lorenzo can't win in anything but warm dry weather? The Michelin tires favor those who brake heavily; Rossi and Marquez. It's all about the tires. Never ceases to amaze me how little you actually know about a sport you purport to follow heavily.

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Lorenzo did just fine on the Michelins in dry weather, he struggled severely when it was wet/damp. His problem was he couldn't adapt to subpar conditions on the Michelins. In fact, he was probably the worst rider on grid in subpar conditions. If he can't adapt, he won't win another championship. It doesn't matter if they're racing on Michelins, Dunlops, Bridgestones, or Pirelli's. He also can't depend on a season of perfect weather.

Dry races so far this year:

Lorenzo won: Qatar, LeMans, & Mugello

Lorenzo finished 2nd:
COTA, Jerez, Aragon

Lorenzo finished 3rd:
RedBull Ring (first non-Ducati)
Misano


Again, Lorenzo did well in the dry on Michelins that JPS claims are not suited for his riding style. It was the wet weather races that destroyed his championship hopes.

JPSLotus said:

You're still making these erroneous claims that Lorenzo can't win in anything but warm dry weather? The Michelin tires favor those who brake heavily; Rossi and Marquez. It's all about the tires. Never ceases to amaze me how little you actually know about a sport you purport to follow heavily.

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Lorenzo's struggles in the wet this season are to do with him not liking the way the wet Michelin tyres felt, he explained this in an interview. I've grown quite fond of the guy this season. His ballsy move to Ducati is to test his metal rather than taking the easier road of staying on a better bike. Similar sort of reasons Rossi had when he moved from Honda to Yamaha.

When he is as comfortable with the Ducati as he is with the Yamaha I think he will be a real contender. Its going to take someone pretty special to beat Marc though, especially when he is on that Honda which is only going to get better when they advance with the electronics.

moto vudu said:

Dry races so far this year:

Lorenzo won: Qatar, LeMans, & Mugello

Lorenzo finished 2nd:
COTA, Jerez, Aragon

Lorenzo finished 3rd:
RedBull Ring (first non-Ducati)
Misano


Again, Lorenzo did well in the dry on Michelins that JPS claims are not suited for his riding style. It was the wet weather races that destroyed his championship hopes.

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Okay and you have proven my point the tires favor heavy brakers. The races Lorenzo did well in were the races where getting heat into the front Michelin tire was very easy given track temperatures were extremely high. Using those as your proof that the tires suited him, shows your typical ignorance as usual.

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo did just fine on the Michelins in dry weather, he struggled severely when it was wet/damp. His problem was he couldn't adjust to subpar conditions on the Michelins. In fact, he was probably the worst rider on grid in subpar conditions. If he can't adapt, he won't win another championship. Doesn't matter if they're on Michelins, Dunlops, Bridgestones, or Pirelli's. He can't depend on a season of perfect weather.

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I think the current Michelins, particularly the fronts, are substandard for everyone. The story of this year is the 2 guys renowned for not throwing the bikes down the road over lengthy careers have done so repeatedly, while the guy who put himself out of contention last year by throwing his bike down the road has ridden within the limitations of the tyres and stayed upright.

I accept much of what you argue, particularly about Rossi's overall quality and stature as a rider, but don't understand why you take such issue with "Rossi hatred" from a few posters on this one forum given the amount of actual hatred directed at so many of his rivals, and the not infrequent glimpses in your own posts of your own dislike for Lorenzo.

AJV80 said:

Lorenzo's struggles in the wet this season are to do with him not liking the way the wet Michelin tyres felt, he explained this in an interview. I've grown quite fond of the guy this season. His ballsy move to Ducati is to test his metal rather than taking the easier road of staying on a better bike. Similar sort of reasons Rossi had when he moved from Honda to Yamaha.

When he is as comfortable with the Ducati as he is with the Yamaha I think he will be a real contender. Its going to take someone pretty special to beat Marc though, especially when he is on that Honda which is only going to get better when they advance with the electronics.

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He couldn't get any feel out of the Michelin tires in the wet because they like the dry weather tires favored those who were going heavy on the brakes. Vudu however has long been spouting ........ about Lorenzo for many months, questioning his effort when he didn't finish well, going as far as accusing him of quitting.

Read into it what you want.

At the Barcelona test we get a lot of tyres to test from Michelin. And I said, 'I don't want to test f**king tyres! I don't give a .... about tyres because you never make a tyre that is branded for Jack Miller.'

JPSLotus said:

Okay and you have proven my point the tires favor heavy brakers. The races Lorenzo did well in were the races where getting heat into the front Michelin tire was very easy given track temperatures were extremely high. Using those as your proof that the tires suited him, shows your typical ignorance as usual.

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You're continuously proving yourself wrong. My point has been Lorenzo has performed well in the dry on the Michelins, he only struggled in the wet. Had the weather been perfect this season, he would still be in championship contention. You're attempting to refute me by pointing out that dry track temps are higher than wet/damp track temps. :giggle: Really JPS? Really???

If every rider other than Lorenzo managed to compete in the wet, the problem isn't really the wet tires... it's HIM.

JPSLotus said:

Richy, in the words of venerable Winston Wolf, "Well let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet."

He inherited a worldbeater of a bike when he came into GP with the RC213V, and he had some good fortune go his way. 2014 was utterly as dominant a performance as one could ever see, but that was the peak of the RC213V in my opinion.

For a rider to be an alien, it's about what they do, when the tool isn't as good as it could be.

Adaptability is the true hallmark of any alien rider. This season was the true test of finding out what Marc Marquez was made of. His new approach to racing paid dividends, and is something I've always preached as every point matters, and sometimes it's more important to take less than to risk it all for a few more.

I think "alien" status should be handed out carefully, not on a whim, like the way it was already done with Maverick Vinales. While talented, Vinales is not an alien rider no matter what Suzuki might have felt.

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You know how when people begin a sentence with "With all due respect" and that presages an attack that totally refutes said respect? Well this is not like that.

With all due respect.... what in your mind makes you insist on the proviso that the label alien, can only be earned on an inferior machine? To me that is an oddly "moved goal poast" and would to some seem to preclude most everyone who's been called an alien, other than Stoner (who as you know by now - I consider a God). I know you have high standards, but you appear to be saying that beating the best on equal machinery doesn't qualify you to be in the big boys club. Moreover - given that there have been multiple wins this season by riders on lesser bikes who have beaten Marquez, Lorenzo and Rossi - by your reckoning - the field of aliens is getting quite crowded right about now. Is Cal Crutchlow now an alien?

JPSLotus said:

He couldn't get any feel out of the Michelin tires in the wet because they like the dry weather tires favored those who were going heavy on the brakes. Vudu however has long been spouting ........ about Lorenzo for many months, questioning his effort when he didn't finish well, going as far as accusing him of quitting.

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I went on MotoGP.com and looked up Lorenzo's results in the dry to support my opinion. It's easy to look up Lorenzo's results in the wet to support my statement that is where he struggled. So the "........" I spout is backed by actual results. The ........ you and Jums spout about the Michelin tires being made specifically for Rossi is unsupported and you two have been spouting it all season long. Ironic that you feel I'm the one that's so full of .....

Keshav said:

Ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!
This is what I mean by boppers having no perspective. Although I don't subscribe to the the whole hog conspiracy, I do know that there are things in the universe that exist beyond the limits of what can be found on Google. Newbies.... God Bless "em! :

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Examples?

sign of pain ?

moto vudu said:

You're continuously proving yourself wrong. My point has been Lorenzo has performed well in the dry on the Michelins, he only struggled in the wet. Had the weather been perfect this season, he would still be in championship contention. You're attempting to refute me by pointing out that dry track temps are higher than wet/damp track temps. :giggle: Really JPS? Really???

If every rider other than Lorenzo managed to compete in the wet, the problem isn't really the wet tires... it's HIM.

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I mention the wet because you've long contended that Lorenzo doesn't try in the wet. And no, it's not him as you need to believe, given he finished ahead of a lot of other people. Arrab kindly pointed out to you that Lorenzo's history in racing never supported your 'he can't ride in the wet' narrative. Yet you still continue to argue this point for some inexplicable reason. One race in particular saw him down because his tire delaminated at the Brno and he was forced to make two pit stops. He also wasn't helped by the fact that the Yamaha M1 couldn't make the intermediate tires work, so it was either full wets or slicks. Not much of a choice there.

Refute you by pointing out dry track temps are higher than wet weather? No you still have a profound inability to read. I mentioned warm/hot tracks because with the Michelin tires in those conditions, he doesn't have to deal with getting heat into the tires. He would have issues in cool dry weather. I also would never claim dry track has higher temperatures than wet tracks do, because it's simply not always the case. You can easily have higher temperatures on a wet track than a dry track.

Regarding dry weather, championship contention versus having a real chance to win a championship are two separate things. By June, it was more than obvious he had no chance of winning the title. There's a lot of tire inconsistencies as well, and he has only looked comfortable at certain races, Qatar and Mugello being the only two I ever thought he looked like the Jorge Lorenzo most of us know.

Keshav said:

You know how when people begin a sentence with "With all due respect" and that presages an attack that totally refutes said respect? Well this is not like that.

With all due respect.... what in your mind makes you insist on the proviso that the label alien, can only be earned on an inferior machine? To me that is an oddly "moved goal poast" and would to some seem to preclude most everyone who's been called an alien, other than Stoner (who as you know by now - I consider a God). I know you have high standards, but you appear to be saying that beating the best on equal machinery doesn't qualify you to be in the big boys club. Moreover - given that there have been multiple wins this season by riders on lesser bikes who have beaten Marquez, Lorenzo and Rossi - by your reckoning - the field of aliens is getting quite crowded right about now. Is Cal Crutchlow now an alien?

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Because it's about what you do when you aren't gifted a near perfect machine ala Valentino Rossi in 2002 or 2003 or even MM for 2013/2014 for example. When you are on one of the two best machines on the grid, you better win a title. Given the number of issues with the RC213V the last two years, this was a title only MM could have won among the 4 factory riders at the front. I feel comfortable in saying that MM could win a world title on the M1, Desmosedici, or the GSX-RR. I cannot say that about any other rider on the grid. Winning a race doesn't grant alien status, winning a title on a difficult machine does. It's why Stoner's 2007 title may be the greatest individual title victory in GP history. That bike was a handful to ride, and he utterly demolished the field that year.

JPSLotus said:

I mention the wet because you've long contended that Lorenzo doesn't try in the wet. And no, it's not him as you need to believe, given he finished ahead of a lot of other people. Arrab kindly pointed out to you that Lorenzo's history in racing never supported your 'he can't ride in the wet' narrative. Yet you still continue to argue this point for some inexplicable reason. One race in particular saw him down because his tire delaminated at the Brno and he was forced to make two pit stops. He also wasn't helped by the fact that the Yamaha M1 couldn't make the intermediate tires work, so it was either full wets or slicks. Not much of a choice there.

Refute you by pointing out dry track temps are higher than wet weather? No you still have a profound inability to read. I mentioned warm/hot tracks because with the Michelin tires in those conditions, he doesn't have to deal with getting heat into the tires. He would have issues in cool dry weather. I also would never claim dry track has higher temperatures than wet tracks do, because it's simply not always the case. You can easily have higher temperatures on a wet track than a dry track.

Regarding dry weather, championship contention versus having a real chance to win a championship are two separate things. By June, it was more than obvious he had no chance of winning the title. There's a lot of tire inconsistencies as well, and he has only looked comfortable at certain races, Qatar and Mugello being the only two I ever thought he looked like the Jorge Lorenzo most of us know.

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Lorenzo dominated at Le Mans.

I wasn't referring to Lorenzo's entire career history in the wet. I said the weather was his problem THIS season.

JPSLotus said:

Because it's about what you do when you aren't gifted a near perfect machine ala Valentino Rossi in 2002 or 2003 or even MM for 2013/2014 for example. When you are on one of the two best machines on the grid, you better win a title. Given the number of issues with the RC213V the last two years, this was a title only MM could have won among the 4 factory riders at the front. I feel comfortable in saying that MM could win a world title on the M1, Desmosedici, or the GSX-RR. I cannot say that about any other rider on the grid. Winning a race doesn't grant alien status, winning a title on a difficult machine does. It's why Stoner's 2007 title may be the greatest individual title victory in GP history. That bike was a handful to ride, and he utterly demolished the field that year.

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I agree with Marc being the sort of rider that would be able to win on anything, the Yamaha, the Ducati or even the Suzuki He is a pretty exceptional talent but the question is would he move to a substandard bike to prove a personal point. He is very young and already has 5 world titles.

Id really love to see him make the move that Rossi and now Lorenzo have/are doing to prove the point to everyone. I wonder if he would or if his dad or his team would let him though. With his age and the bike he is on and already 5 world titles ... he could comfortably stay with Honda and if it remains competitive which I see no reason to think otherwise and go on to beat Rossi's records and even further.

He could probably still do that on another bike but it would be more of a challenge and take him a little longer possibly, who knows who will enter the series in that time to take him on.

moto vudu said:

You're continuously proving yourself wrong. My point has been Lorenzo has performed well in the dry on the Michelins, he only struggled in the wet. Had the weather been perfect this season, he would still be in championship contention. You're attempting to refute me by pointing out that dry track temps are higher than wet/damp track temps. :giggle: Really JPS? Really???

If every rider other than Lorenzo managed to compete in the wet, the problem isn't really the wet tires... it's HIM.

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In two of the races concerned, in one the race was stopped because the conditions were considered by RD to be too unsafe to continue, an assessment he had also made, just earlier, and in the other his tyre delaminated.

Both Yamaha riders lost the front and dnfed in the recent race which was dry, Rossi saying he had no warning, there have been front end washouts for multiple riders all season, and two of the leading riders had massive high sides in practice, not a feature of recent years.

Something has changed for 3 of the 4 top factory riders this year. Given both the ECU and the tyres were changed this year, either or both may be influential, but I don't see how the influence of one change ie tyres can be confidently excluded.
Whether this was by design, and in particular by a design to help Rossi, is a different question.

I personally think and have consistently argued since 2008 that there should be a wider choice of tyres suited to a variety of bike designs and riding styles. My suspicion rather than a pro-Rossi conspiracy is that Dorna don't actually know what they are doing and may consider a tyre lottery desirable.

michaelm said:

In two of the races concerned, in one the race was stopped because the conditions were considered by RD to be too unsafe to continue, an assessment he had also made, just earlier, and in the other his tyre delaminated.

Both Yamaha riders lost the front and dnfed in the recent race which was dry, Rossi saying he had no warning, there have been front end washouts for multiple riders all season, and two of the leading riders had massive high sides in practice, not a feature of recent years.

Something has changed for 3 of the 4 top factory riders this year. Given both the ECU and the tyres were changed this year, either or both may be influential, but I don't see how the influence of one change ie tyres can be confidently excluded.
Whether this was by design, and in particular by a design to help Rossi, is a different question.

I personally think and have consistently argued since 2008 that there should be a wider choice of tyres suited to a variety of bike designs and riding styles. My suspicion rather than a pro-Rossi conspiracy is that Dorna don't actually know what they are doing and may consider a tyre lottery desirable.

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I know this is a crude way of looking at it, the tyres are bad Michelin they are not up to speed for obvious reasons and basically Michellin don't know what they are doing because they didn't have enough data to build the tyres they would like to. To try and mitigate the bad press and PR disaster this could become they have developed loads of tyre options based on god knows what information and hoped that in that bunch there would be a couple that worked reasonably enough to keep the egg off their face. Everyone is on the same tyres, so everyone is wearing the pain of this equally in theory anyway obviously some tyres will better suit some styles, some bikes, some tracks.

The ECU and its software however has effected teams differently. I feel that Honda was the most effected by this but could be wrong. I know in a tech talk interview Honda explained that at Sepang in 2015 the bike was faster. It was faster because the air temp and humidity where high thus causing the engine to produce less power and produce it less abruptly, this then gave their no expense spared 2015 bespoke electronics a better chance at controlling drive out of corners compared to other tracks. So even at the end of 2015 they could have done with better electronics.

Now they are using electronics that are not as configurable and have less options for them to tune to. I read that the wheelie control now only comes into play when the fork almost bottoms and works more like a switch compared to last years where it was an analogue transducer that could be trended to activate wheelie control proportionally to rise and fall rates in the fork. This was an interview with Bradley Smith Tech3 Yamaha not Honda but it sounded like the limitations where on the inputs available to the ECU rather than the actual sensors and compromises had to be made by teams to best use what combination of inputs, be them analogue or digital that they had available to them with the standardised ECU. All I'm trying to say is that the bigger teams like Honda and Yamaha who have become more and more accustomed to clever electronics up to 2016 and now feeling it the hardest compared to teams who are used to making do without all the bells and whistles.

JPSLotus said:

Richy, in the words of venerable Winston Wolf, "Well let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet."

He inherited a worldbeater of a bike when he came into GP with the RC213V, and he had some good fortune go his way. 2014 was utterly as dominant a performance as one could ever see, but that was the peak of the RC213V in my opinion.

For a rider to be an alien, it's about what they do, when the tool isn't as good as it could be.

Adaptability is the true hallmark of any alien rider. This season was the true test of finding out what Marc Marquez was made of. His new approach to racing paid dividends, and is something I've always preached as every point matters, and sometimes it's more important to take less than to risk it all for a few more.

I think "alien" status should be handed out carefully, not on a whim, like the way it was already done with Maverick Vinales. While talented, Vinales is not an alien rider no matter what Suzuki might have felt.

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Disagree sorry. Marc took a bike which was totally alien to him in 2013. A bike a season before stoner couldn't win the championship on.

He won the world championship in his rookie year, if that's not adapting, I don't know what is. If the 2012/2013 bike was that good in your opinion why didn't the aliens of pedrosa and stoner wrap the title up on it in 12/13?

Have you ever raced a bike? Adapting to a new bike and winning races is one thing, putting together consistent strong performances on a new bike and winning a title is completely different. Bottom line is Marquez has won 3 in 4 in MotoGP, regardless of the machinery, he is and always was an alien