Motul Grand Prix of Japan 2016 spoilers

danski · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
This forum is the only place i have ever heard about the Michellin - Rossi tyre conspiracy. Interesting topic, I'm just curious about the source of it and how it came about?

The author of the conspiracy is Jumkie , he can answer your questions.

JPSLotus · Oct 16, 2016

Richy56 said:
Are you kidding, mm only just an alien rider? This kid is the mother of all aliens since he arrived in MotoGP 2013.

No one has achieved what he has at his age. The guy is a motorbike magician

Richy, in the words of venerable Winston Wolf, "Well let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet."

He inherited a worldbeater of a bike when he came into GP with the RC213V, and he had some good fortune go his way. 2014 was utterly as dominant a performance as one could ever see, but that was the peak of the RC213V in my opinion.

For a rider to be an alien, it's about what they do, when the tool isn't as good as it could be.

Adaptability is the true hallmark of any alien rider. This season was the true test of finding out what Marc Marquez was made of. His new approach to racing paid dividends, and is something I've always preached as every point matters, and sometimes it's more important to take less than to risk it all for a few more.

I think "alien" status should be handed out carefully, not on a whim, like the way it was already done with Maverick Vinales. While talented, Vinales is not an alien rider no matter what Suzuki might have felt.

#22 · Oct 16, 2016

Congrats to Marquez. He thoroughly deserved this championship. No the pressure is off I'll be interested to see how he handles the final 3 races!

As Gaz has said too, hats of to Mike Jones who was thrown in at the deep end and while he finished last, he stayed on the track that many didn't. I've read he has been confirmed at Phillip Island so I will be rooting for him and expect he will go much better at a track he knows and a bike he is more comfortable with.

AJV80 · Oct 16, 2016

Richy56 said:
Marquez has ridden brilliantly pretty much all year. Very deserving champ.

How long ago was it commentators were banging on about michelins providing great racing. Bottom line they haven't, championship over with three races left, not what Dorna ordered. Let's hope Michelin get their act together next yr otherwise it will be .....

The other highlight has got to be Rossis meltdown. He hit the panic button again when Marquez went past Lorenzo. Ambition outweighed talent once again when will he ever learn.

Lorenzo was thinking about dovi ducati when he lost it. Mmmm "if I was on that bike what could I do" ....'oh ...., I'm in the gravel" nevermind those michelins fronts are made for the other side of the yam garage.

I agree Michelin need to get there act together, but they have been out of the series for some time and hadn't tested at all of the tracks and had to guesstimate a lot hence the spread of tyre options they brought to each round. When Bridgestone became the sole supplier of tyres they where actively in the series in the years leading up to the takeover.

Marquez won the championship with 273 points, Rossi and Lorenzo with 196 and 182 both with I think about 4 x DNF's in the season including Motegi.

Hypothetically if they had of finished in say 2nd and 3rd in the races that they failed to finish for various reasons the championship would have looked very different. That would add a combined total of about 144 points, if you split it down the middle give them half each it would have made this years results very different.

Marc 273, Rossi 268, Lorenzo 254 I haven't really checked my maths but near enough. I'm sure Michellin have been in overdrive all season and gathered tons of data at each round I'd imagine next year we will se a big improvement. I think the standard ECU has also played a big part this season, hopefully next season will be a lot closer when it gets to the pointy end.

Jumkie · Oct 16, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
If Marc wins the title this weekend I think this will be my next tattoo.

Post a pic of the tattoo, will ya.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
This forum is the only place i have ever heard about the Michellin - Rossi tyre conspiracy. Interesting topic, I'm just curious about the source of it and how it came about?

It's not really a conspiracy theory - rather a known fact. Michelin supplied their top riders with A-Spec tyres. The 'have-nots' received lower grades, sometimes mismatches and often cast offs. The provision of these were based around two things - rider preference/feedback and in the European rounds a very effective logistical operation. Development was supposedly driven by the factory riders but since Michelin had, shall we say, favourable working relations with HRC, they quickly established a very effective dialogue with Valentino who was renowned for the clarity of his feedback.

It is a mistake to suggest that bespoke tyres were not provided for other riders that requested them. In the 500cc formula McCoy ran a unique compound on the 16.5 rim which he was able to exploit to devastating effect. In my opinion Valentino was one of the few that could make it work - however when the entire paddock insisted on making the switch, they 'dumbed down' the design and it became more amenable thus depriving McCoy of his advantage.

Anyway, it became commonplace following practice and qualifying for the gates of a circuit to be opened during the small hours to accommodate another Michelin container. This consignment was an overnight shipment of a modified tyre based upon the findings of the weekend. Sure, there were variables and contingencies such as weather conditions which no one could control, but the option was there nonetheless. And that revised option was basically a tweak at Clermont Ferrand to accommodate the data yielded from practice. This is precisely why Rossi concentrated less on grid position and more on race sim. Capirossi - his close friend - even suggested that preferential tyre treatment gave Valentino in particular up to several tenths a lap as a conservative estimate. This is why he could afford to work on race pace, qualify deep and patiently work his way through the field as we saw so much in 2001. It is also where the 'JB's pulled another rabbiit out of his arse on Sunday morning' myth arose. Meanwhile, the 'lesser' riders often inherited the cast offs.

So no conspiracy, simply the fact that Valentino was the go to man on account of the fact that he was renowned for the quality and clarity of his feedback. That other riders also benefitted from this is beyond doubt, but it does leave one thinking how formidable particular riders may have been given the same preferential treatment.

This flexible arrangement was challenged by Bridgestone before the control rule, who accustomed to working without this comparative advantage relating to distribution, in my opinion produced a more comprehensive range of tyres for the weekend with a broader parameter which became increasingly potent at some of the fly aways. I always remember Michelin getting the Laguna consignment hopelessly wrong during the end of their tenure.

michaelm · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
I agree Michelin need to get there act together, but they have been out of the series for some time and hadn't tested at all of the tracks and had to guesstimate a lot hence the spread of tyre options they brought to each round. When Bridgestone became the sole supplier of tyres they where actively in the series in the years leading up to the takeover.

Marquez won the championship with 273 points, Rossi and Lorenzo with 196 and 182 both with I think about 4 x DNF's in the season including Motegi.

Hypothetically if they had of finished in say 2nd and 3rd in the races that they failed to finish for various reasons the championship would have looked very different. That would add a combined total of about 144 points, if you split it down the middle give them half each it would have made this years results very different.

Marc 273, Rossi 268, Lorenzo 254 I haven't really checked my maths but near enough. I'm sure Michellin have been in overdrive all season and gathered tons of data at each round I'd imagine next year we will se a big improvement. I think the standard ECU has also played a big part this season, hopefully next season will be a lot closer when it gets to the pointy end.

Yes, in human endeavour stuff ups are far more common than conspiracies.

My doubts concern what instructions Michelin had from Dorna, not so much in regard to helping Rossi but whether they had instructions other than to produce the best tyres.

AJV80 · Oct 16, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
It's not really a conspiracy theory - rather a known fact. Michelin supplied their top riders with A-Spec tyres. The 'have-nots' received lower grades, sometimes mismatches and often cast offs. The provision of these were based around two things - rider preference/feedback and in the European rounds a very effective logistical operation. Development was supposedly driven by the factory riders but since Michelin had, shall we say, favourable working relations with HRC, they quickly established a very effective dialogue with Valentino who was renowned for the clarity of his feedback.

It is a mistake to suggest that bespoke tyres were not provided for other riders that requested them. In the 500cc formula McCoy ran a unique compound on the 16.5 rim which he was able to exploit to devastating effect. In my opinion Valentino was one of the few that could make it work - however when the entire paddock insisted on making the switch, they 'dumbed down' the design and it became more amenable thus depriving McCoy of his advantage.

Anyway, it became commonplace following practice and qualifying for the gates of a circuit to be opened during the small hours to accommodate another Michelin container. This consignment was an overnight shipment of a modified tyre based upon the findings of the weekend. Sure, there were variables and contingencies such as weather conditions which no one could control, but the option was there nonetheless. And that revised option was basically a tweak at Clermont Ferrand to accommodate the data yielded from practice. This is precisely why Rossi concentrated less on grid position and more on race sim. Capirossi - his close friend - even suggested that preferential tyre treatment gave Valentino in particular up to several tenths a lap as a conservative estimate. This is why he could afford to work on race pace, qualify deep and patiently work his way through the field as we saw so much in 2001. It is also where the 'JB's pulled another rabbiit out of his arse on Sunday morning' myth arose. Meanwhile, the 'lesser' riders often inherited the cast offs.

So no conspiracy, simply the fact that Valentino was the go to man on account of the fact that he was renowned for the quality and clarity of his feedback. That other riders also benefitted from this is beyond doubt, but it does leave one thinking how formidable particular riders may have been given the same preferential treatment.

This flexible arrangement was challenged by Bridgestone before the control rule, who accustomed to working without this comparative advantage relating to distribution, in my opinion produced a more comprehensive range of tyres for the weekend with a broader parameter which became increasingly potent at some of the fly aways. I always remember Michelin getting the Laguna consignment hopelessly wrong during the end of their tenure.

Thanks for the explanation, I've heard it brought up a here a few times but didn't really know where it had come from and struggled to find any information on it directly when probing Mr google.

I personally think this season Michelin had their ... hanging out and where flat out just trying to deliver a bunch of tyres that hopefully had a few options in there that worked at each track. I don't know what level of testing and data collection options that even had in 2015 but their efforts this year appeared like they really got thrown in the deep end up to their necks.

Hopefully next year we see a big improvement. I think the flow on effect next season will be when they hit tracks with different weather conditions to this year and we se Michelin first time wets and drys.

moto vudu · Oct 16, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
It's not really a conspiracy theory - rather a known fact. Michelin supplied their top riders with A-Spec tyres. The 'have-nots' received lower grades, sometimes mismatches and often cast offs. The provision of these were based around two things - rider preference/feedback and in the European rounds a very effective logistical operation. Development was supposedly driven by the factory riders but since Michelin had, shall we say, favourable working relations with HRC, they quickly established a very effective dialogue with Valentino who was renowned for the clarity of his feedback.

It is a mistake to suggest that bespoke tyres were not provided for other riders that requested them. In the 500cc formula McCoy ran a unique compound on the 16.5 rim which he was able to exploit to devastating effect. In my opinion Valentino was one of the few that could make it work - however when the entire paddock insisted on making the switch, they 'dumbed down' the design and it became more amenable thus depriving McCoy of his advantage.

Anyway, it became commonplace following practice and qualifying for the gates of a circuit to be opened during the small hours to accommodate another Michelin container. This consignment was an overnight shipment of a modified tyre based upon the findings of the weekend. Sure, there were variables and contingencies such as weather conditions which no one could control, but the option was there nonetheless. And that revised option was basically a tweak at Clermont Ferrand to accommodate the data yielded from practice. This is precisely why Rossi concentrated less on grid position and more on race sim. Capirossi - his close friend - even suggested that preferential tyre treatment gave Valentino in particular up to several tenths a lap as a conservative estimate. This is why he could afford to work on race pace, qualify deep and patiently work his way through the field as we saw so much in 2001. It is also where the 'JB's pulled another rabbiit out of his arse on Sunday morning' myth arose. Meanwhile, the 'lesser' riders often inherited the cast offs.

So no conspiracy, simply the fact that Valentino was the go to man on account of the fact that he was renowned for the quality and clarity of his feedback. That other riders also benefitted from this is beyond doubt, but it does leave one thinking how formidable particular riders may have been given the same preferential treatment.

This flexible arrangement was challenged by Bridgestone before the control rule, who accustomed to working without this comparative advantage relating to distribution, in my opinion produced a more comprehensive range of tyres for the weekend with a broader parameter which became increasingly potent at some of the fly aways. I always remember Michelin getting the Laguna consignment hopelessly wrong during the end of their tenure.

Nothing you just wrote has anything to do with the 2016 Michelins. Provide some facts that show the 2016 Michelins are made primarily for Valentino Rossi, if you cannot support your claims with facts... it IS a conspiracy. Going back decades to the 500cc era has absolutely nothing to do with today's GP grid, bikes, tires, nor anything else.

The best support for their conspiracy that JPS & Jums have been able to come up with is "But... but... Colin Edwards is a test rider for Michelin so that's proof the tires are designed for Rossi!"

moto vudu · Oct 16, 2016

If we're going to use our imagination to come up with unsupported claims that the sport isn't being run fairly, then we can cheapen Marc's championship win by claiming the tires were actually formulated for him! After all, going back DECADES shows that HRC has always had the most influence over decisions made by Dorna. Not to mention the extremely heavy bias toward Spanish riders with the amount of money contributed by HRC and Repsol. So hey, we can all play the "Let's make up .... to cheapen the sport" game!

Jumkie · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
This forum is the only place i have ever heard about the Michellin - Rossi tyre conspiracy. Interesting topic, I'm just curious about the source of it and how it came about?

Perhaps you should expand your reading in regards to tire advantages beyond this forum then my friend. It is not a myth, nor conspiracy, but a fact. The question is, is it still going on, in my opinion, it most undoubtedly is.

I understand your sentiment however, often labeling something "conspiracy" has the desired affect of convenience, an easy way to dismiss something, as you can see from the responses to your post. Facts are often passed off as conspiracy or myths, and vis verse. For example, like the myth that was debunked regarding Rossi’s legendary "development skill" over two years at Ducati, your posts reminds me of a quote from Casey Stoner who said:

“I just feel completely sorry for Ducati that Valentino has gone there and done nothing but complain about the bike for almost two years.”
“They ate their words from day one.”
“Jerry [Burgess] saying that it would take him 80 seconds to fix that bike and that it was a simple issue and now they have had almost two years and have not made any inroads.”
“Valentino obviously doesn’t want to push limits and ride a bike that is not perfect, he has admitted that.”

Bare with me AJV80, I'm getting to your question. I'm just building it so you can understand the validity of one of many sources that have made the privy to the 'fact' Valentino Rossi has enjoyed a tire advantage with Michelin. (Granted, Rossi's fans have a peculiar way of processing facts and myths, for example, it's 'fact' in their eyes that Marquez stole Valentino's title last year).

How important is a tire? Well, according to Rossi: "...it is the tyre that decides the race."

When Rossi started whining about his tires, it prompted Casey Stoner to say the following:

---

"They [Rossi] can moan and whinge about it as much as they want, but it shows that [Michelin] has had such an advantage in the past. This season, they cannot bring a tyre in just for the race [and] it's a matter of relying on the company that supports you to do a good job."

Stoner was referring to the "conspiracy", as you label it, though Casey was referencing it as fact.

---

This was back in 2007, and the episode that precipitated these quotes ultimately lead to the end of the tire war, Rossi was the only one allowed to switch in 2008, and the series instituted the single tire supplier in 2009 (both 08/09 resumed Rossi's run of titles "wins" that were 'interrupted' in 06/07.

When Rossi made a return to Yamaha, it was to restore the series in terms of viewership, given that Rossi's Ducati stint was detrimental to ratings. Rossi out of the podium positions was hurting the series where Dorna executives are most interested, the bottom line. When the greatest value of your business is the leverage to negotiate based on ratings, it's a nuclear threat for people to tune out because their favorite rider is out, the fact is most viewers of GP are Rossi fans. The pressure to artificially keep him competitive must be enormous, and Dorna are not inclined to maintain impartiality of authentic competition over losing money. This prompted Dorna to broker a return of Rossi to Yamaha, a manufacturer with a perennial success rate. That is, Dorna acted in effect as the sport agent for an individual competitor, going so far as to subsidize the contract. (Yamaha offered a considerable pay cut to Rossi (fact), for several reasons, not the least being at the time they didn’t want him back due to his toxic affect on a racing team, that hasn't changed even today in 2016).

Today, Michelin are again the tire supplier, a manufacturer with a history of instituting a performance system of their product as a function of a popularity contest. Perhaps they have changed their spots? You won't find a source like Stoner above referencing the fact that Michelin is again developing tires to suit Rossi. I can't find it now since Randy Mamola is no longer maintaining his blog for Alpinestars, but he had a quote that was in no uncertain terms, describing the fact Michelin provided Rossi "the good stuff." But the "coincidences" of artificially propping Valentino up and keeping him competitive again today are deafening. Take a look back to the preseason testing, where Lorenzo made the fateful mistake of making it public his initial lap domination was thanks to the tires, those tires were withdraw in short order resulting in Lorenzo having an uncharacteristic season, struggling in various conditions, including dry races. Rossi has been phenomenally competitive this year, but it wasn't always so, as the first iteration of Michelin's in preseason where he said he was worried for the season, saying that it would be bad for the championship if Lorenzo had a run away season, those tires were then withdrawn. For 2016, the tire development favoring Rossi is more a suggestion rather than confirmed fact, but it's no conspiracy theory that Michelin have conducted such a modus operandi for their approach to the championship. Michelin was brought into the championship after unceremoniously being terminated from a high profile series. Consider the optics of returning to a high profile series and not making Rossi competitive, the major reason they were terminated in the first place.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

AJV80 · Oct 16, 2016

Jumkie said:
Perhaps you should expand your reading in regards to tire advantages beyond this forum then my friend. It is not a myth, nor conspiracy, but a fact. The question is, is it still going on, in my opinion, it most undoubtedly is.

I understand your sentiment however, often labeling something "conspiracy" has the desired affect of convenience, an easy way to dismiss something, as you can see from the responses to your post. Facts are often passed off as conspiracy or myths, and vis verse. For example, like the myth that was debunked regarding Rossi’s legendary "development skill" over two years at Ducati, your posts reminds me of a quote from Casey Stoner who said:

“I just feel completely sorry for Ducati that Valentino has gone there and done nothing but complain about the bike for almost two years.”
“They ate their words from day one.”
“Jerry [Burgess] saying that it would take him 80 seconds to fix that bike and that it was a simple issue and now they have had almost two years and have not made any inroads.”
“Valentino obviously doesn’t want to push limits and ride a bike that is not perfect, he has admitted that.”

Bare with me AJV80, I'm getting to your question. I'm just building it so you can understand the validity of one of many sources that have made the privy to the 'fact' Valentino Rossi has enjoyed a tire advantage with Michelin. (Granted, Rossi's fans have a peculiar way of processing facts and myths, for example, it's 'fact' in their eyes that Marquez stole Valentino's title last year).

How important is a tire? Well, according to Rossi: "...it is the tyre that decides the race."

When Rossi started whining about his tires, it prompted Casey Stoner to say the following:

---

"They [Rossi] can moan and whinge about it as much as they want, but it shows that [Michelin] has had such an advantage in the past. This season, they cannot bring a tyre in just for the race [and] it's a matter of relying on the company that supports you to do a good job."

Stoner was referring to the "conspiracy", as you label it, though Casey was referencing it as fact.

---

This was back in 2007, and the episode that precipitated these quotes ultimately lead to the end of the tire war, Rossi was the only one allowed to switch in 2008, and the series instituted the single tire supplier in 2009 (both 08/09 resumed Rossi's run of titles "wins" that were 'interrupted' in 06/07.

When Rossi made a return to Yamaha, it was to restore the series in terms of viewership, given that Rossi's Ducati stint was detrimental to ratings. Rossi out of the podium positions was hurting the series where Dorna executives are most interested, the bottom line. When the greatest value of your business is the leverage to negotiate based on ratings, it's a nuclear threat for people to tune out because their favorite rider is out, the fact is most viewers of GP are Rossi fans. The pressure to artificially keep him competitive must be enormous, and Dorna are not inclined to maintain impartiality of authentic competition over losing money. This prompted Dorna to broker a return of Rossi to Yamaha, a manufacturer with a perennial success rate. That is, Dorna acted in effect as the sport agent for an individual competitor, going so far as to subsidize the contract. (Yamaha offered a considerable pay cut to Rossi (fact), for several reasons, not the least being at the time they didn’t want him back due to his toxic affect on a racing team, that hasn't changed even today in 2016).

Today, Michelin are again the tire supplier, a manufacturer with a history of instituting a performance system of their product as a function of a popularity contest. Perhaps they have changed their spots? You won't find a source like Stoner above referencing the fact that Michelin is again developing tires to suit Rossi. I can't find it now since Randy Mamola is no longer maintaining his blog for Alpinestars, but he had a quote that was in no uncertain terms, describing the fact Michelin provided Rossi "the good stuff." But the "coincidences" of artificially propping Valentino up and keeping him competitive again today are deafening. Take a look back to the preseason testing, where Lorenzo made the fateful mistake of making it public his initial lap domination was thanks to the tires, those tires were withdraw in short order resulting in Lorenzo having an uncharacteristic season, struggling in various conditions, including dry races. Rossi has been phenomenally competitive this year, but it wasn't always so, as the first iteration of Michelin's in preseason where he said he was worried for the season, saying that it would be bad for the championship if Lorenzo had a run away season, those tires were then withdrawn. For 2016, the tire development favoring Rossi is more a suggestion rather than confirmed fact, but it's no conspiracy theory that Michelin have conducted such a modus operandi for their approach to the championship. Michelin was brought into the championship after unceremoniously being terminated from a high profile series. Consider the optics of returning to a high profile series and not making Rossi competitive, the major reason they were terminated in the first place.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Expand my reading? well i trolled Mr google quite a bit actually but didn't really stumble upon much other than opinions and speculation on the topic. mind you with a topic like that, its probably all you would find.

Apologies for labelling it a conspiracy, don't take it to heart it wasn't a dig at you. But i still wouldn't call it fact based on anything you have just said, its speculation at best. There is no hard evidence so it kind of is a conspiracy and always will be just like UFO's. The US Army slipped up to the press at Roswell and people have even pictured those things but they are still a conspiracy.

I am fully aware that tyres win a race, hell the bikes are designed around the tires and have been for longer than I've been alive (maybe not you though). Also aware of Casey and Burgess and Bridgestone and Ducati and returning to Yamaha but that doesn't really prove anything about Michelin making tyres for Rossi in 2016 either.

I'm not questioning the fact special tyres got produced in the past for high spec riders and teams, we all know that happened and its not much of a secret. I'm questioning whether or not Rossi had special tyres this year or indeed as you put it Michelin deliberately made the tyres specifically to suit Rossi/his riding style/his bike over anybody else. To date all I have seen is Michelin struggling to make a tyre to suit anybody in the field let alone one specific rider, hence why they offered up so many options each round. I personally think you are giving Michelin too much credit.

If they are as you put it making tyres for Rossi in 2016, you could argue that they wouldn't have offered up so many options if they truly wanted him to have the advantage they would want everyone else riding on tyres that they couldn't fully benefit from. It all just sounds like speculation to me sorry.

moto vudu · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
Expand my reading? well i trolled Mr google quite a bit actually but didn't really stumble upon much other than opinions and speculation on the topic. mind you with a topic like that, its probably all you would find.

Apologies for labelling it a conspiracy, don't take it to heart it wasn't a dig at you. But i still wouldn't call it fact based on anything you have just said, its speculation at best. There is no hard evidence so it kind of is a conspiracy and always will be just like UFO's. The US Army slipped up to the press at Roswell and people have even pictured those things but they are still a conspiracy.

I am fully aware that tyres win a race, hell the bikes are designed around the tires and have been for longer than I've been alive (maybe not you though). Also aware of Casey and Burgess and Bridgestone and Ducati and returning to Yamaha but that doesn't really prove anything about Michelin making tyres for Rossi in 2016 either.

I'm not questioning the fact special tyres got produced in the past for high spec riders and teams, we all know that happened and its not much of a secret. I'm questioning whether or not Rossi had special tyres this year or indeed as you put it Michelin deliberately made the tyres specifically to suit Rossi/his riding style/his bike over anybody else. To date all I have seen is Michelin struggling to make a tyre to suit anybody in the field let alone one specific rider, hence why they offered up so many options each round. I personally think you are giving Michelin too much credit.

If they are as you put it making tyres for Rossi in 2016, you could argue that they wouldn't have offered up so many options if they truly wanted him to have the advantage they would want everyone else riding on tyres that they couldn't fully benefit from. It all just sounds like speculation to me sorry.

It is all speculation from the mind of one of the forum's biggest Rossi haters. He'll type up another 2,000-word dissertation hoping you're naive enough to read it and not see that he's making the entire thing up.

AJV80 · Oct 16, 2016

moto vudu said:
It is all speculation from the mind of one of the forum's biggest Rossi haters. He'll type up another 2,000-word dissertation hoping you're naive enough to read it and not see that he's making the entire thing up.

Hahaha, I'm not like that and like to listen to everybody's ideas, opinions and theories and whether its true or not I still find it really interesting and entertaining. I'm only new to this forum but really love it and all the guys and gals that contribute to it.

I come from mining and the rule on site used to be, if you haven't heard a good rumour by 10.00am then its time to start one.

povol · Oct 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
Expand my reading? well i trolled Mr google quite a bit actually but didn't really stumble upon much other than opinions and speculation on the topic. mind you with a topic like that, its probably all you would find.

Apologies for labelling it a conspiracy, don't take it to heart it wasn't a dig at you. But i still wouldn't call it fact based on anything you have just said, its speculation at best. There is no hard evidence so it kind of is a conspiracy and always will be just like UFO's. The US Army slipped up to the press at Roswell and people have even pictured those things but they are still a conspiracy.

I am fully aware that tyres win a race, hell the bikes are designed around the tires and have been for longer than I've been alive (maybe not you though). Also aware of Casey and Burgess and Bridgestone and Ducati and returning to Yamaha but that doesn't really prove anything about Michelin making tyres for Rossi in 2016 either.

I'm not questioning the fact special tyres got produced in the past for high spec riders and teams, we all know that happened and its not much of a secret. I'm questioning whether or not Rossi had special tyres this year or indeed as you put it Michelin deliberately made the tyres specifically to suit Rossi/his riding style/his bike over anybody else. To date all I have seen is Michelin struggling to make a tyre to suit anybody in the field let alone one specific rider, hence why they offered up so many options each round. I personally think you are giving Michelin too much credit.

If they are as you put it making tyres for Rossi in 2016, you could argue that they wouldn't have offered up so many options if they truly wanted him to have the advantage they would want everyone else riding on tyres that they couldn't fully benefit from. It all just sounds like speculation to me sorry.

I said at the first of the year when Michelin shitcanned the tire Lorenzo was running well with, that they would come with a tire that had a stiffer carcass that benefitted Rossi's riding style and thats exactly what happened. I also said that the more the tire became Rossi centric, the more ...... everyone was going to be because Marquez prefers the same and it would play into his hands because he is the superior of the two. The difference between Rossi and Marquez is Rossi has to have those tires to compete, Marquez doesnt. He prefers them, but can adapt to the softer carcass without complaint and still be a threat to the title

evo9 · Oct 16, 2016

moto vudu said:
It is all speculation from the mind of one of the forum's biggest Rossi haters. He'll type up another 2,000-word dissertation hoping you're naive enough to read it and not see that he's making the entire thing up.

Boy!!! You are in for a long cold winter.

moto vudu · Oct 16, 2016

evo9 said:
Boy!!! You are in for a long cold winter.

IzhamShaari · Oct 16, 2016

i can't believe Rossi & Lorenzo conspired with each other to bring MM93 to the top, disgusting

michaelm · Oct 16, 2016

povol said:
I said at the first of the year when Michelin shitcanned the tire Lorenzo was running well with, that they would come with a tire that had a stiffer carcass that benefitted Rossi's riding style and thats exactly what happened. I also said that the more the tire became Rossi centric, the more ...... everyone was going to be because Marquez prefers the same and it would play into his hands because he is the superior of the two. The difference between Rossi and Marquez is Rossi has to have those tires to compete, Marquez doesnt. He prefers them, but can adapt to the softer carcass without complaint and still be a threat to the title

That's the thing, whether or not the tyre was intended or designed to help Rossi, and MV is obviously correct there is no proof of this, the effect has been as you said.

To me Yamaha's best chance of being competitive with MM this year or in the short to midterm future was to back Jorge strongly and push hard for a tyre suited to him being available, regardless of which tyres suited to other riders might be available.

I simply don't see Rossi however valuable his input into bike development may be and Yamaha being able to come up with a bike sufficiently superior to HRC's bike to allow Vinales or a late 30s Rossi to beat MM over a season now he has come to the realisation that tossing his bike down the road trying to win every race is not a good strategy.

Dorna have also allowed the previous Rossi last year to trash the current and future Rossi, and I am not sure that showed great vision for the future from them either; I did hear Nick Harris refer to MM as 5 times world champion in a sound grab on the radio this morning, and perhaps that is a sign of the times.

moto vudu · Oct 16, 2016

The tires suited Lorenzo just fine, it was the weather that didn't cooperate with him. Had every race been in perfect conditions, Lorenzo might be leading the championship or not far behind.

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