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MotoGP: 2016 Round 02 - Gran Premio Motul de la República Argentina (SPOILERS)

I don't buy this "good bike #1 - not-as-good bike #2 " argument given a top factory team in the year 2016, with all the electronics and precise instrumental checks and whatnot -- the only thing that can make two factory
Yamaha or Hondas really "different" is different setups, or faulty parts (improbable), or tires.

So most probably it is down to tires -- but let's remember that there is also the rider in the equation, and that's more difficult to evaluate performance wise. I saw a gung-ho Marquez happily on the throttle out of the pitlane, and a much more cautious Rossi (maybe he was thinking of Lorenzo at Misano 2015, maybe it's just the age factor, maybe he didn't feel the tires ok).

By the way, Rossi didn't say he would have won if the race had been uninterrupted, -- he said he "could have tried" to win. Seeing his performance especially on the brakes (as Arrab noted) in the first 10 laps, it's not an outlandish claim. I still think he would have been second though, Marquez looked very good.

Indeed MM looked good, and does now seem to recognise even he has limits, although still prepared to push hard on cold tyres.

I think Valentino would have had a chance in a full race on one set of tyres at this particular circuit; I presume Colin Edwards meant that the tyres would wear out rather than delaminate when he said the Michelins wouldn't last the distance here.
 
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Throttle control issues for Redding is what caused his retirement. I love his comments about Miller too..."A ....... out of control lunatic" :D

Scott Redding has explained how 'a disconnected feeling' with the throttle was at fault for his retirement from the MotoGP race in Argentina while sat in a promising sixth place.

Feeling no ill-effects from his lucky escape from a tyre failure on Saturday that altered the course of the rest of the weekend, Redding was also critical of Jack Miller's riding in the early laps, describing his style as “a f**king out of control lunatic.”

“I'm disappointed because we made a good race considering the problem we had,” said the Englishman. “We made good of a bad weekend but it just wasn't enough. Something had to come and get us again which was quite annoying.”

Starting well, Redding slipped to the lower points positions after a mistake at turn one on lap two but recovered well to sit behind Dani Pedrosa after the enforced bike swap.

It was after he effortlessly moved by the Spaniard to assume sixth place that the problem occurred, leaving him to rue a potential missed podium.

“The start was OK. F**king Jack [Miller] fighting with you for no reason. That's why we lost the first guys originally. Then I went into turn one deep and got caught up with that crash with [Cal] Crutchlow and [Aleix] Espargaro and I was 17th or 18th. I managed to catch the group again.

“I made a great change. I think it was the second or third fastest in the pits. I was fast right out of the box. Pedrosa passed me but I think he only pulled three tenths on me on my out lap so it was really good in that area. I knew I was going to be faster, passed him and tried to make a gap. I was riding about 80 percent because there was too much of a gap in front to really do anything.

“I went into turn one and there was nada. I tried to reboot the engine three times; off, on, off, on. I had to come to an end. There was an opportunity to take some good points. We were sixth at the time. With what happened I would have been third. But fifth or sixth is where it was. It was just one of those weekends. There was the incident with the tyre. Then a f**k up in FP3 so I didn't go through to Q2.”

On a hectic first lap spent fighting with an ultra-aggressive Miller, Redding said he was sure Miller would be unable to complete the 20 laps in the style he was riding.

“He can put the bike where he wants but we're going to lose time on other guys. You go into T1, there's no line there and he's just driving into the side of you. I'm like, 'Dude, come on!' Then you brake into turn two and he's trying to go round the outside. Into three and he's there and he goes on the inside and you pass him back on the straight.

“Then he tries to come back up the inside of you at seven and by that point the leading guys have put eight tenths on you. I knew he wasn't going to finish the race. He was riding like a f**king out of control lunatic and then he crashes again.

“I can help myself by not qualifying there. I just need to do it. I think when I qualify in the first three rows I'll be able to hold on to that front group easily. It's getting there is a bit frustrating because you try to recover, brake harder, make a mistake and recover again. It's just endless.”

Argentina was another race in which Redding was unable to build on the promise he has shown throughout various points in the weekend, but the Englishman remained optimistic before travelling north to Austin.

“I don't really know what the problem was. It would have been nice for that to have happened in practice but we learnt something. The race wasn't bad until then. I caught and passed Dani, was the first satellite bike at the time, which was good. We have to look on to Texas. It's got to stop at some point!”
Read more at MotoGP News - MotoGP Argentina: Mystery power fault for Redding, unhappy with Miller
 

From one of the connected articles

"While Valentino chose to skirt the issue with: “It wasn't me who created this situation”, Lorenzo thinks there could be a solution to all this. As reported in Spanish daily Marca, the Mallorcan stated that: “The only person who can resolve this is not interested in doing so, everybody knows or can imagine”. Lorenzo did not name names, though the clues can only point to his team mate."

Just when I'm so tired of all the hating on Vale - I read this and can only think what a weasel he is. I mean, maybe the fans wouldn't even listen to him - but if he were a true ambassador to the sport, he would at least try to address this in a meaningful way. You would think Yamaha and Dorna would put some pressure on him, as this kind of crap is no way good for the sport.
 
I thought that was one of Lorenzo's excuses last year - together with dislodged helmet padding and steamed up visor?

It very well could have been, i lose track of the excuses. I tend to believe Jorge a fraction more than Rossi simply because he doesnt have the multitudes to appease. Besides Marquez riding a Honda, one of the main reasons i pull for Marquez is that he tends not to exaggerate why he loses.
 
Throttle control issues for Redding is what caused his retirement. I love his comments about Miller too..."A ....... out of control lunatic" :D

I love the .... about dog face Miller, but he sounds just like Crutchlow when I hear him talk about sticking with the lead group if this and that happen.
 
Ya I understand. I just have trouble with people saying it's purely the bike, anyway I guess we'll only know for sure once Jorge starts racing for Ducati...

The Ducati of the Rossi years and the the current iteration are in noways analogous. The comparison is without merit.

Spies had talent but - poor judgement regarding management and crew and generally had .... luck. With a better crew and minus the shoulder injuries - I think he'd have gone on to win more races. Just wasn't meant to be.

I do believe some of the younger riders at this point could do as well as Rossi on the M1. Yes - Rossi still has chops but is pretty much in Pedrosa Bride's Maid territory now.
 

"I went to the Ducati garage to check the solidity of the spoiler, I asked them to give me an old fairing and it is in fact impossible to break the winglet. This means that if contact were to be made, they could cause damage. For now, I'm not saying they'll be banned, but it's something we'll discuss in the future. In a collision, they could become dangerous," Capirossi says, quoted by gpone

As i said in the winglets thread, at the speeds these bikes are going, these damn things can cause damage. We were told ' Winglets are engineered to break off cleanly, and at minimum resistance. Scrutineers check for this, and Danny Aldridge (tech director) is making sure that they cannot injure anyone.' Is Danny Aldridge making .... up as he goes, or is Capirossi incapable of applying enough force to snap a piece of plastic that is supposedly designed to break off cleanly with minimum resistance
 
"I went to the Ducati garage to check the solidity of the spoiler, I asked them to give me an old fairing and it is in fact impossible to break the winglet. This means that if contact were to be made, they could cause damage. For now, I'm not saying they'll be banned, but it's something we'll discuss in the future. In a collision, they could become dangerous," Capirossi says, quoted by gpone

As i said in the winglets thread, at the speeds these bikes are going, these damn things can cause damage. We were told ' Winglets are engineered to break off cleanly, and at minimum resistance. Scrutineers check for this, and Danny Aldridge (tech director) is making sure that they cannot injure anyone.' Is Danny Aldridge making .... up as he goes, or is Capirossi incapable of applying enough force to snap a piece of plastic that is supposedly designed to break off cleanly with minimum resistance

They have to be able to withstand over 200mph of down force wind, so it probably isn't that easy to break them off. I would think thats strong enough to hurt a mother ...... for sure.
 
Couple of comments here, people thinking Marquez is in for a decent title chance after just 2 races, the bike still looked pretty janky to me, yeah he was fast but it looked like it could let go on him any second, not in the same way as 2013&2014 just looked on a knife edge all weekend.
He will likely have a solid weekend in Austin, but after that when the European ground war starts I think we will start to get an idea of how far Yam is ahead of Honda at the moment.

Honda 2nd best bike at moment..... maybe ...... just but first 3 rounds are kinda oddballs in the season so I dont think this run results will last, IMO of course!
 
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Couple of comments here, people thinking Marquez is in for a decent title chance after just 2 races, the bike still looked pretty janky to me, yeah he was fast but it looked like it could let go on him any second, not in the same way as 2013&2014 just looked on a knife edge all weekend.
He will likely have a solid weekend in Austin, but after that when the European ground war starts I think we will start to get an idea of how far Yam is ahead of Honda at the moment.

Honda 2nd best bike at moment..... maybe ...... just but first 3 rounds are kinda oddballs in the season so I dont think this run results will last, IMO of course!

Thats the consensus, but anytime Marquez lines up he has a decent shot at winning, so by default, he has a decent shot at the title.
 
The Ducati of the Rossi years and the the current iteration are in noways analogous. The comparison is without merit.

Spies had talent but - poor judgement regarding management and crew and generally had .... luck. With a better crew and minus the shoulder injuries - I think he'd have gone on to win more races. Just wasn't meant to be.

I do believe some of the younger riders at this point could do as well as Rossi on the M1. Yes - Rossi still has chops but is pretty much in Pedrosa Bride's Maid territory now.

I was mainly speaking to the point of whether or not being on a factory m1 guarantees a podium no matter the skill level of the rider. Basically what people are saying is that last year if Dovi and Iannone had been riding m1's they'd have finished the year first and second. Actually that's not even as ridiculous as what they're saying. They're saying that if you put Tito Rabat and Jack Miller on those bikes they'd finish the championship 1st and 2nd. Don't get mad at me, I'm not saying that, those are their words not mine.

Obviously if you take Rossi and put him on Marc VDS Honda he isn't going to do well, in other news water is wet, neither would any other rider. Sorry for a basketball analogy, but even Michael Jordan (who is probably the most undisputed clear number one of all time in any sport)needed a great team behind him to win with the Bulls. Rossi helped kickstart the M1 when he originally signed with Yamaha and now people are blaming him for riding his awesome bike, first they say he's only winning cause he's on Honda. Then it was that he's only winning cause he's on Yamaha. Guess what guys he's a 7 time champion, no duh he's going to be riding on a good bike, time to get over it. Just for perspective, it's as ludicrous as saying that the ONLY reason MM or Jorge won their championships were because their bikes were the best at the time. Which is wrong, it takes a great rider on a great bike to win, unless your name is Casey Stoner, who won despite his bike. And quite frankly I see and agree with your point, I'm sure there are few select young riders who could do what he's doing if they had his bike and I've said as much before. Thank you for saying it in a respectful manor, it makes what you said more valid.

It's the few people out there who try and say that Rossi is the slowest rider on the grid or people that try to discredit him as a racer that I take issue with. To be honest, I'm so sick of talking about Rossi but people just want to keep arguing about him to me. Please everyone let me talk about other riders, I'm done talking Rossi! Lol
 
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I was mainly speaking to the point of whether or not being on a factory m1 guarantees a podium no matter the skill level of the rider. Basically what people are saying is that last year if Dovi and Iannone had been riding m1's they'd have finished the year first and second. Actually that's not even as ridiculous as what they're saying. They're saying that if you put Tito Rabat and Jack Miller on those bikes they'd finish the championship 1st and 2nd. Don't get mad at me, I'm not saying that, those are their words not mine.

Obviously if you take Rossi and put him on Marc VDS Honda he isn't going to do well, in other news water is wet, neither would any other rider. Sorry for a basketball analogy, but even Michael Jordan (who is probably the most undisputed clear number one of all time in any sport)needed a great team behind him to win with the Bulls. Rossi helped kickstart the M1 when he originally signed with Yamaha and now people are blaming him for riding his awesome bike, first they say he's only winning cause he's on Honda. Then it was that he's only winning cause he's on Yamaha. Guess what guys he's a 7 time champion, no duh he's going to be riding on a good bike, time to get over it. Just for perspective, it's as ludicrous as saying that the ONLY reason MM or Jorge won their championships were because their bikes were the best at the time. Which is wrong, it takes a great rider on a great bike to win, unless your name is Casey Stoner, who won despite his bike. And quite frankly I see and agree with your point, I'm sure there are few select young riders who could do what he's doing if they had his bike and I've said as much before. Thank you for saying it in a respectful manor, it makes what you said more valid.

It's the few people out there who try and say that Rossi is the slowest rider on the grid or people that try to discredit him as a racer that I take issue with. To be honest, I'm so sick of talking about Rossi but people just want to keep arguing about him to me. Please everyone let me talk about other riders, I'm done talking Rossi! Lol
No. You want to talk about how great he is Bullwinkle. You just cant stand being challenged and discussing a position that doesnt glorify your hero.
Your Jordan analogy is as plausible as the Canadian army. He carried those Bulls teams on his back. The reason why he's considered the NOAT is precisely because of that
 
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I was mainly speaking to the point of whether or not being on a factory m1 guarantees a podium no matter the skill level of the rider. Basically what people are saying is that last year if Dovi and Iannone had been riding m1's they'd have finished the year first and second. Actually that's not even as ridiculous as what they're saying. They're saying that if you put Tito Rabat and Jack Miller on those bikes they'd finish the championship 1st and 2nd. Don't get mad at me, I'm not saying that, those are their words not mine.

Obviously if you take Rossi and put him on Marc VDS Honda he isn't going to do well, in other news water is wet, neither would any other rider. Sorry for a basketball analogy, but even Michael Jordan (who is probably the most undisputed clear number one of all time in any sport)needed a great team behind him to win with the Bulls. Rossi helped kickstart the M1 when he originally signed with Yamaha and now people are blaming him for riding his awesome bike, first they say he's only winning cause he's on Honda. Then it was that he's only winning cause he's on Yamaha. Guess what guys he's a 7 time champion, no duh he's going to be riding on a good bike, time to get over it. Just for perspective, it's as ludicrous as saying that the ONLY reason MM or Jorge won their championships were because their bikes were the best at the time. Which is wrong, it takes a great rider on a great bike to win, unless your name is Casey Stoner, who won despite his bike. And quite frankly I see and agree with your point, I'm sure there are few select young riders who could do what he's doing if they had his bike and I've said as much before. Thank you for saying it in a respectful manor, it makes what you said more valid.

It's the few people out there who try and say that Rossi is the slowest rider on the grid or people that try to discredit him as a racer that I take issue with. To be honest, I'm so sick of talking about Rossi but people just want to keep arguing about him to me. Please everyone let me talk about other riders, I'm done talking Rossi! Lol
I agree with you, and have said so. Not just Miller and Rabat, I doubt Vinales and even more so Iannone would do as well, they might have raw pace but not the consistency; I suspect neither has as much talent as Spies. Dovi had an extended run on an HRC bike and didn't look to be as good as Pedrosa let alone Stoner.

What people are perhaps underestimating is how good MM and Lorenzo are; time will tell how they eventually rate, but both are probably top ten all time riders as things stand, and at the peak of their careers now rather than 37; the points table last year is a matter of historical fact which indicates that current Rossi did rather well against them.

My problem with him is not his talent, present or past, or really any problem with the fairness of his riding other than the odd isolated incident in a very long career, but his off-track manipulation particularly his encouragement of the significant crazy element among his fans which he is now openly employing as a weapon against his rivals and which is ongoing cf more or less actively approving the booing of MM and JL. The word that comes to mind for his recent behaviour is petulant.
 
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From one of the connected articles

"While Valentino chose to skirt the issue with: “It wasn't me who created this situation”, Lorenzo thinks there could be a solution to all this. As reported in Spanish daily Marca, the Mallorcan stated that: “The only person who can resolve this is not interested in doing so, everybody knows or can imagine”. Lorenzo did not name names, though the clues can only point to his team mate."

Just when I'm so tired of all the hating on Vale - I read this and can only think what a weasel he is. I mean, maybe the fans wouldn't even listen to him - but if he were a true ambassador to the sport, he would at least try to address this in a meaningful way. You would think Yamaha and Dorna would put some pressure on him, as this kind of crap is no way good for the sport.
This is essentially my whole objection to him.
 
Couple of comments here, people thinking Marquez is in for a decent title chance after just 2 races, the bike still looked pretty janky to me, yeah he was fast but it looked like it could let go on him any second, not in the same way as 2013&2014 just looked on a knife edge all weekend.
He will likely have a solid weekend in Austin, but after that when the European ground war starts I think we will start to get an idea of how far Yam is ahead of Honda at the moment.

Honda 2nd best bike at moment..... maybe ...... just but first 3 rounds are kinda oddballs in the season so I dont think this run results will last, IMO of course!
That is how he rides. JL and Pedrosa spent a whole season thinking he couldn't continue riding as he was, but he did and won the title in 2013.

Even last year his problem was more that he wouldn't accept that he couldn't win every race and over-rode even by his own standards. If he settles for position when it is sensible to do so as he did at Qatar I think he is a fair chance this year, even though the Yamaha in all likelihood is better as you say.
 
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I was mainly speaking to the point of whether or not being on a factory m1 guarantees a podium no matter the skill level of the rider. Basically what people are saying is that last year if Dovi and Iannone had been riding m1's they'd have finished the year first and second. Actually that's not even as ridiculous as what they're saying. They're saying that if you put Tito Rabat and Jack Miller on those bikes they'd finish the championship 1st and 2nd. Don't get mad at me, I'm not saying that, those are their words not mine.

Obviously if you take Rossi and put him on Marc VDS Honda he isn't going to do well, in other news water is wet, neither would any other rider. Sorry for a basketball analogy, but even Michael Jordan (who is probably the most undisputed clear number one of all time in any sport)needed a great team behind him to win with the Bulls. Rossi helped kickstart the M1 when he originally signed with Yamaha and now people are blaming him for riding his awesome bike, first they say he's only winning cause he's on Honda. Then it was that he's only winning cause he's on Yamaha. Guess what guys he's a 7 time champion, no duh he's going to be riding on a good bike, time to get over it. Just for perspective, it's as ludicrous as saying that the ONLY reason MM or Jorge won their championships were because their bikes were the best at the time. Which is wrong, it takes a great rider on a great bike to win, unless your name is Casey Stoner, who won despite his bike. And quite frankly I see and agree with your point, I'm sure there are few select young riders who could do what he's doing if they had his bike and I've said as much before. Thank you for saying it in a respectful manor, it makes what you said more valid.

It's the few people out there who try and say that Rossi is the slowest rider on the grid or people that try to discredit him as a racer that I take issue with. To be honest, I'm so sick of talking about Rossi but people just want to keep arguing about him to me. Please everyone let me talk about other riders, I'm done talking Rossi! Lol

Last season, being a factory RCV or M1 gave you a 1:4 chance of winning.

All 4 different race winners last season were on one of those bikes. Don't kid yourself.
 
"I went to the Ducati garage to check the solidity of the spoiler, I asked them to give me an old fairing and it is in fact impossible to break the winglet. This means that if contact were to be made, they could cause damage. For now, I'm not saying they'll be banned, but it's something we'll discuss in the future. In a collision, they could become dangerous," Capirossi says, quoted by gpone

As i said in the winglets thread, at the speeds these bikes are going, these damn things can cause damage. We were told ' Winglets are engineered to break off cleanly, and at minimum resistance. Scrutineers check for this, and Danny Aldridge (tech director) is making sure that they cannot injure anyone.' Is Danny Aldridge making .... up as he goes, or is Capirossi incapable of applying enough force to snap a piece of plastic that is supposedly designed to break off cleanly with minimum resistance

Things that could hurt a rider:

Getting hit by a tumbling bike
Getting throat (or any main artery) slashed by a shattered windscreen in a collision
Getting fingers caught in drive chain
Breathing fumes from exhaust from following too close behind
Getting foot caught in hand guard and dragged to death
Getting foot caught in nasty old wheel spokes

Seriously - I mean - you can dream up scenarios all day long Pov. But bottom line is the winglets are made of light-weight plastic or carbon fiber or whatever and have very little mass as compared many other parts of the bike. A rider in all likelihood is equally in danger of getting smacked in the ribs by another rider's knee puck (knee and puck having much more mass than a winglet) in a close encounter. In any event it's about relative speed if you think about it. It's not like we're talking about the bike traveling at 200 mph and accidentally slicing open some stationary pedestrian waiting at a street corner. They're not razor sharp, and today's boots, leathers and body armor are just short of bullet-proof. (I do wish someone would hurry up and invent better gloves tho. The chances of someone getting seriously injured by a winglet with both riders moving at the same speed have to very small.
 
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