MotoGP: 2015 Round 16 - Pramac Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix (SPOILERS)

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yzthumpa said:
Both sentiments are one in the same.
Did Marquez drop back from 1st to help Rossi? Hell no. When he did drop back into second though, it is alleged that he motioned for Rossi to work with him. I didn't see it. But I have no problem believing it. In NASCAR the spotters are in constant radio contact with the drivers and arrange this situation on a regular basis. Would Marquez do it to help himself get to the front or to help Rossi to the front? I would say primarily to help himself get the win, but with helping Rossi in the standings as an added benefit. If the situation were reversed and it was Rossi in front and Lorenzo behind Marquez, I 100% think Marquez would STILL go for the win, but would not attempt to engage Lorenzo to help push him there. I also think that if Marquez if out front late in one of the last two races with faltering tires and has a faster Rossi or Lorenzo behind him with an inevitable pass, he'd give up the spot a hell of a lot easier to Rossi than he would to Lorenzo. That's the type of gray shades of help I'm speaking of. Marc's primary focus will always be himself and the win. 100%. But if he can assist Rossi along the way, he takes the benefit and profits from it because it maintains Lorenzo's current state of mind as "frustrated" rather than "confident."
And for the record, I want Rossi to win this title as much as I've ever wanted any racer to win anything as a fan. But I think Jorge pulls it out. If Rossi loses, he lost the title in his failure to take this spot from Iannone and his failure to outlast Pedrosa for one spot recently.
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So, MM, the guy who didn't have enough brains to keep himself making numerous enforced errors that ended a bunch of his races this season, to say nothing of his past antics, suddenly gained enough intelligence to put together a scheme like the one you've just outlined? I mean that's really incredible. You're riding at 9/10ths or 10/10ths in a race where you've got three guys circling the track as fast as you are, and then you've got the time to come up with this scheme, all while trying to defend against constant overtake attempts, and to generate offensive overtake attempts? Wow, he went from showing he has a lack of intelligence, to suddenly being the canniest rider on the grid?

There was no failure to outlast Pedrosa at Motegi, in case you hadn't noticed, neither him, nor Lorenzo had the pace to match Pedrosa.
 
yzthumpa said:
I'll assume that at this point, especially given your post count, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Because you can't possibly be this stupid.:rolleyes:
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Oh, don't underestimate me, I can be very stupid. So I was responding to your assertion that Marc may have been employing mind-games to help Rossi and destroy Lorenzo's confidence. I was replying to you as we have been carrying on this discussion, have you decided then you no longer want to discuss it? You see, when you replied to me that usually means you want to continue "arguing " and making your point. Which I have now asked you to continue to elaborate why you think Marc was employing mind-games. You already established that perhaps Marc was thinking long term, trying to help Rossi today supposing it will destroy Lorenzo's confidence tomorrow when it will be Marc vs Jorge. To advance your point you described potential scenarios. Interestingly enough, those scenarios played out while actually in contrast to your assertion for why Marc would employ mind-games. Please help me understand, I'm interested in how I'm missing your point. But don't protest if then I actually respond to you. Ok so how am I missing this notion that Marc was helping Rossi to destroy Lorenzo's confidence? Please continue.
 
Not talking about Motegi. Pedrosa was in his own world there. I'm talking about a race or two prior to that - Rossi was battling with Pedrosa for something like a #2 or #3 spot, had passed him, and got re-passed very late in the race. Valuable points right there just like the situation with Iannone. Surprised that no one else jumped on my little note about Italians remembering Iannone's "point-stealing" like Americans remember Pedrosa's takeout of Hayden IF Rossi loses the title over those few points.
As far as the brain-straining genius that some think it takes for strategy to help another to the title, apparently none of you have watched motocross for the past 20 years.:D
 
Jumkie said:
Oh, don't underestimate me, I can be very stupid. So I was responding to your assertion that Marc may have been employing mind-games to help Rossi and destroy Lorenzo's confidence. I was replying to you as we have been carrying on this discussion, have you decided then you no longer want to discuss it? You see, when you replied to me that usually means you want to continue "arguing " and making your point. Which I have now asked you to continue to elaborate why you think Marc was employing mind-games. You already established that perhaps Marc was thinking long term, trying to help Rossi today supposing it will destroy Lorenzo's confidence tomorrow when it will be Marc vs Jorge. To advance your point you described potential scenarios. Interestingly enough, those scenarios played out while actually in contrast to your assertion for why Marc would employ mind-games. Please help me understand, I'm interested in how I'm missing your point. But don't protest if then I actually respond to you. Ok so how am I missing this notion that Marc was helping Rossi to destroy Lorenzo's confidence? Please continue.
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I have been discussing it. It's you who has been avoiding my questions that support how this has occurred with other riders - whereas you act like the notion doesn't exist. I guess I'm more familiar with the strategy from watching motocross for a couple decades. Hard to discuss with those who aren't familiar with or even acknowledge that it occurs. Your use of examples that occurred while Marquez was still in the hunt for the title exemplify that you're not in this for a serious discussion. I'll discuss it with my motocross brethren - at least they have a firmer understanding of race strategy.
 
yzthumpa said:
Not talking about Motegi. Pedrosa was in his own world there. I'm talking about a race or two prior to that - Rossi was battling with Pedrosa for something like a #2 or #3 spot, had passed him, and got re-passed very late in the race. Valuable points right there just like the situation with Iannone. Surprised that no one else jumped on my little note about Italians remembering Iannone's "point-stealing" like Americans remember Pedrosa's takeout of Hayden IF Rossi loses the title over those few points.
As far as the brain-straining genius that some think it takes for strategy to help another to the title, apparently none of you have watched motocross for the past 20 years.:D
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Are you talking about the Aragon GP where Pedrosa beat Rossi? If you want to count this as point stealing then what about the points Pedro was out injured? Surely that helped Rossi to a few points. In case you haven't noticed, the four competitive bikes are factory: 2 Hondas and 2 Yamahas, and sometimes a Ducati in the mix. Rossi is on one of those top 4, so when 1 is out, like Pedrosa was, that's a big plus for him.

I've actually watched MX and SX religiously. There's even a thread somewhere here where I posted just to increase my post count.

Wait, are you comparing Iannone "stealing " points from Rossi in the same vein as Pedrosa torpeding Hayden at Estoril, the penultimate round of that season?
 
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No, I 'm comparing how it may be remembered by Rossi fanatics if those points cost him the title. Big difference. Don't try to tell me that there weren't hordes of Italians screaming at their television screens when Iannone passed Rossi back - and far more screaming "NO!" for Rossi than "YAY!" for Iannone. And Pedrosa being out helped Lorenzo as much as it helped Rossi - doesn't Rossi have more podiums than Lorenzo this season?
Jorge is a huge whiner, and if I had to describe him in one word the past few weeks, it would be "frustrated." Even after taking 7 points back this weekend, he is probably even MORE frustrated because of the way he lost the other 5 - especially after checking out in Motegi only to be run down by Pedro and the GOAT. If you don't think losing this title will have an adverse effect on him - and think that Jorge's mindset is of no consequence to Marquez - I don't even know why I'm bothering to educate you.
 
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Jumkie said:
You've been having a right laugh with that haven't you. Roger sent me this from a vid he recorded off the TV. I was busting up at how Hodgy tried to deflect the fantastic comeback by Jackie. Uhm, .......uhm, hey audience sorry for the profanity. ........ What would have been awesome is if Miller had looked into the camera and said, sorry audience but don't listen to this ......, I'm the guy on the MotoGP grid not this guy. (Disclaimer, I like Neil, but what a ....... question to ask a guy on the grid.)

Btw, is "......" really not allowed on TV? It seems a rather soft word. Then again I don't really know since it's more a Brit thing. I remember when I told you I was laughing because they said "scouser" on TV. Then u said, well that's not that bad.
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A couple of years back, Beattie was interviewing him on the grid when he came out with something along the lines of "My qualifying was ...."
 
yzthumpa said:
I have been discussing it. It's you who has been avoiding my questions that support how this has occurred with other riders - whereas you act like the notion doesn't exist. I guess I'm more familiar with the strategy from watching motocross for a couple decades. Hard to discuss with those who aren't familiar with or even acknowledge that it occurs. Your use of examples that occurred while Marquez was still in the hunt for the title exemplify that you're not in this for a serious discussion. I'll discuss it with my motocross brethren - at least they have a firmer understanding of race strategy.
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Well I've been very careful to answer your questions. Let's see, we were talking about Marc, then you wanted to talk about Rossi. I asked you to elaborate why you think Marc has employed mind-games, so far you came up with hypothetical scenarios which rather serendipitously occurred but whose outcomes advanced my point.i think you may be confusing me answering your question as not answering them because you're not getting the answer you want.

Ah yes, perhaps you should discuss this with your MX brethren. Hey, I already mentioned this but there is a MX thread here somewhere, I'll need to ask a friend to remind me where that is though, I mean if I had any friends. Anyway if you find that thread let me know who was regularly on there, perhaps one of them can help me understand what I'm missing here. I love racing, and if you have some racing strategy insight, well I'd love to know about it. So to be clear, the MX guys will understand better the GP strategy, man let me try and find that board then, this sounds like good stuff.
 
yzthumpa said:
No, I 'm comparing how it may be remembered by Rossi fanatics if those points cost him the title. Big difference. Don't try to tell me that there weren't hordes of Italians screaming at their television screens when Iannone passed Rossi back - and far more screaming "NO!" for Rossi than "YAY!" for Iannone. And Pedrosa being out helped Lorenzo as much as it helped Rossi - doesn't Rossi have more podiums than Lorenzo this season?
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Honestly, I don't know. That's an interesting thought. We have an Italian here, perhaps he could shed some insight. I wonder how they viewed it, as points "stealing " or as a display of integrity in racing. I'm willing to bet if you asked Rossi what he would have preferred, for Iannone to let him by or racing him properly, he'd say race. Maybe I'm wrong. And I might be.

I'm sure there are plenty of 'VR fans' who are angry at Iannone for that master class and fantastic performance that made 'racing fans' excited. But I bet there are also some 'racing fans' in Italy. If Rossi does lose the championship (which I highly doubt) I think you will be hard pressed to find a meme that blames Iannone for that. Frankly I think you suggesting it might be remembered like Pedro's torpedo is rather imaginative.
 
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In no way am I suggesting anything unbecoming with Iannone's pass. It was brilliant, and this race alone has probably done more than the rest of the season combined for his reputation as a rider deserving of more than the often ill-fated Ducati. This race gives me hope that he may somewhat fill the unfillable void left by the horrid departure of Simoncelli.
"Stealing" points merely refers to a pass late in the race when you thought a rider had sealed it - much like a boxer will "steal" a round with a late flurry. Didn't think I'd have to explain that, but I'm becoming more attuned to the "audience" I have in you, so I guess I do have to write it in crayon.
My question about Rossi when we were "supposed to be discussing Marquez" was obviously to see if you will acknowledge that mind games exist in the sport. Your failure to answer was enough of a success for me. You know it exists, but just won't admit it if it doesn't serve your pandering.
None of the examples you referenced were legitimate since Marquez was still in the hunt for the title at those points in the season, and you and I both know that.
And if you are familiar with MX, you're familiar with "helping" other riders to a title or acting as a straight up spoiler against an adversary. And this demonstrates that, contrary to your belief, riders can ride and think at the same time.
 
Jumkie said:
Great to see new peeps joining, the delusion that those who had supposedly ruined the forum to death has been greatly exaggerated.
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I'm guessing you have a large part to do with this. I'm quite familiar with your "type" on message boards. Because I am one.:D
 
yzthumpa said:
I'm guessing you have a large part to do with this. I'm quite familiar with your "type" on message boards. Because I am one.:D
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Haha, good to know. This forum used to have lots of VR fans, if we get to 2006-09 levels again, your post count will skyrocket. Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on that whiner Casey Stoner?
 
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Fellers, let's discuss MX/SX strategy in the AMA Supercross forum, a forum which needs a name change.....
Jum's 2006 wow, seems like a long time ago!
 
L8Braker said:
Fellers, let's discuss MX/SX strategy in the AMA Supercross forum, a forum which needs a name change.....
Jum's 2006 wow, seems like a long time ago!
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Yeah I know. From Nicky euphoria to last call. Sad. Anyhoo, what is this "MX/SX" you speak of? Let's do this. Go Ricky Carmichael!


Oh wait, he's retired.
 
Jumkie said:
what's your opinion on that whiner Casey Stoner?
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The ultimate whiner who benefitted greatly from an overpowered Duc and a Honda in the peak of it's turn at the top of the cycle…Great rider no doubt, but I'll never forgive him for his "ambition outweighs talent" comment about Rossi.
I am kind of surprised that Marc's success didn't coax him out of retirement. He wanted…nay, NEEDED…GP to miss him, and miss him greatly. Marc made him the forgotten man. I honestly thought he'd try to make a comeback to reaffirm himself as the greatest rider he ever knew.
 
Jumkie said:
Yeah I know. From Nicky euphoria to last call. Sad. Anyhoo, what is this "MX/SX" you speak of? Let's do this. Go Ricky Carmichael!


Oh wait, he's retired.
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