MotoGP: 2015 Round 09 - GoPro Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland (SPOILERS)

Jumkie said:

Because never has a rider blamed his bike for his own failings. Hey Kesh, I have some beach property in Kansas I'd like to sell u.

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Oh stop already. I never made any absolute statements to that effect. Again;

JPSLotus said:

Oh ....... please.

Why is it never mentioned that maybe Yamaha built a better bike this year while Honda improve only a little compared to the M1?

Instead MM has to fight with one hand tied behind his back because the Honda engineers didn't have the consideration to build a bike that was 3 seconds a lap better than the M1?

The RCV has managed to equal or better most of 2014's times (and it won the title with those times) yet the M1 also happened to do the same thing.

Today's ride was reminiscent of COTA, remember that race?

No one said anything about the RCV being a pile of .... till a wrong tire choice cost MM the race in Argentina. Then all of a sudden it was arms up in the air, and cries of "What the .... is this ...., a Yamaha keeping up with a Honda? We were lead to believe that wouldn't happen again till 2025!"

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Who said there was no mention of improvements in the M1? Rossi and Lorenzo's pleasure at the improvements in this year's iteration have been much discussed. Improving the bike however doesn't mean ergo - MM isn't younger and more fearless never having suffered serious injury and massively talented. Your argument seems to imply that mechanical parity negates more talent and a willingness to take more risks.

You guys need to make up your mind. Either the Honda is so good it rides itself and therefore is so vastly superior that even a nobody like MM can win on it - or the M1 is every bit it's equal. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Jumkie said:

Because never has a rider blamed his bike for his own failings. Hey Kesh, I have some beach property in Kansas I'd like to sell u.

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Riders' don't blame bikes, fan boys blame bikes!

Keshav said:

Who said there was no mention of improvements in the M1? Rossi and Lorenzo's pleasure at the improvements in this year's iteration have been much discussed. Improving the bike however doesn't mean ergo - MM isn't younger and more fearless never having suffered serious injury and massively talented. Your argument seems to imply that mechanical parity negates more talent and a willingness to take more risks.

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Please, the journos have little interest in admitting that the real reason the RCV hasn't looked like a worldbeater this year is because the other bike [M1] has caught up to it.

Oh good god, look at you with your straw man argument. Where the .... did I say anything about MM not being talented? I'm on record as stating he is talented, but a moron in between the ears hence the string of bad luck. He could easily have crashed out at Assen.

You guys need to make up your mind. Either the Honda is so good it rides itself and therefore is so vastly superior that even a nobody like MM can win on it - or the M1 is every bit it's equal. You can't have your cake and eat it.

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No one made the claim it's so good it can ride itself.

I believe the argument made is that it's a very good bike that just didn't make a step forward that was at least equal to the step forward that the M1 made. Hence why the gap between the Yamaha and Honda is much smaller from 2014 to 2015.

I have been arguing for the last month that there's nothing really that wrong with the RCV. Stop trying to twist it into an either/or proposition since myself, nor Jums even made that ridiculous claim you're trying to attribute to us.

Notice how there were 5 components that were at fault for the supposed "underperforming" of the RCV and suddenly nothing is being mentioned now?

-Chassis
-Brakes
-Swingarm
-Flywheel
-Engine

Why is this?

Maybe because all of those supposed problems were nothing more than red herrings.

There's all these vague allusions from MM about how Honda "is close" and that things have "improved" yet no mention of anything other than the supposed improved braking feel that has gotten with the reversion of the 2014 chassis.

A few weeks ago he was blaming Casey Stoner for the bike being garbage.

Now all of a sudden it's just fine?

lol he's a moron.

Rank technical amateur that would blame the sun being at the wrong angle in the sky if he failed to take a corner at the speed he intended to.

In other news... Did you see the trophy???!!! Looked like a sex you with that go pro stuck on the front!!

Lotus, Kesh wasn't implying anything with that pic, he was just uploading a pic of himself for our benefit. Helps to know sometimes who you're talking with.

On a related note, Casey stopped developing the RCV since his services were not appreciated. He is obviously developing the Suzuki now.

Jumkie said:

Lotus, Kesh wasn't implying anything with that pic, he was just uploading a pic of himself for our benefit. Helps to know sometimes who you're talking with.

On a related note, Casey stopped developing the RCV since his services were not appreciated. He is obviously developing the Suzuki now.

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LOL

JPSLotus said:

LOL

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Here is what's really funny. Lets apply Krop's logic today. Its easy to revise after the thought, but if we are to believe the rationale that we were all fooled ("tricked") by Marc's brilliance then today the RCV is STILL a dog. I'd like to know who here would like to take that position? Sure it's easy for Krops to say, look, see this and that to support his ridiculous assessment 12 months AFTER. But today, who is ready to say the RCV sucks? If it has declined because of Honda's incompetence, then it should still be .... right now. Has Honda re-begun another cycle of incompetence for Kropo to point to and Kesh to buy in about 12 months OR the next time the law of probability starts to catch up to Marc (whichever is sooner)?

Keshav said:

Oh stop already. I never made any absolute statements to that effect. Again;

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"I never said...." "I never made..."

The lady doth protest too much.

littlesparrows said:

Maybe this will help you people who are stuck on the actual camera:

I work in advertising, I'm a graphic designer. I work on campaigns & try to think of ways to promote a product/brand/service. I was just saying - it was a cool & unique way to promote a new product.

I do not own a GoPro, so I don't even know what the .... you are talking about with the microphone.

Sorry that I ever tried to point out something interesting.

.....

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This comment was more interesting than the race. Does anyone out there really believe that sparrow has a job that doesnt entail stuffing deer carcasses.

With all the attention being focused on the Hondas supposed woes, Ducatis woes are swept under the rug. Just about every person on the site including Mototainment journalist Kropo was singing its praises. It didn't take but a few races before normal order was restored.
The ducati is still the steaming pile of .... it always was.

Jumkie said:

Here is what's really funny. Lets apply Krop's logic today. Its easy to revise after the thought, but if we are to believe the rationale that we were all fooled ("tricked") by Marc's brilliance then today the RCV is STILL a dog. I'd like to know who here would like to take that position? Sure it's easy for Krops to say, look, see this and that to support his ridiculous assessment 12 months AFTER. But today, who is ready to say the RCV sucks? If it has declined because of Honda's incompetence, then it should still be .... right now. Has Honda re-begun another cycle of incompetence for Kropo to point to and Kesh to buy in about 12 months OR the next time the law of probability starts to catch up to Marc (whichever is sooner)?

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I've come to the conclusion that Kropo has a "blame Honda for MM not winning a race" folder filled with excuses all meant to exonerate the anointed one.

What you say about if it has declined because of Honda, it should still be .... is exactly what seems to be flying over Kesh's head along with the rest.

Honda gets a 1-2 finish.

That means they finished in front of everyone on the grid, unless there are some imaginary bikes that somehow exist in front of the Honda's. Though reading Kesh and Kropo, you might think the RCV was still garbage, and MM is winning through sheer talent and drive. What about his midget teammate who wasn't too far behind?

Why aren't you saying Dani does similar things especially in light of Dani's podium finish in Catalunya when MM crashed out trying to ram J-Lo out of his way? Why is it when Dani finishes well, no one cares, or thinks, "It's about time he did something." If MM finishes well it's destiny. If he does poorly, it's something with the bike....or once when the planets and moons align, you'll get some flowery horseshit like, "MM crashed out with a slightly over ambitious maneuver while trying to compensate for the RCV's deficiencies."

Not the most exciting race, but stunning form by Marky Mark. Didn't look like he was trying to kill anyone either. Respect to Pedders too. There is no truth in the rumours he went to the Clinica Mobile instead of the podium, because that's what usually happens. Rossi rode his wee socks off, but, it wasn't to be today, he was pushing though. Jorge just didn't want to play today, shame, he needs to keep beating Rossi straight up to get another title. Mature Joe doesn't have the same ring to it, but its doing him the world of good, his first year in Moto 2 he was incredible, so no surprises. No shame in being beaten that year by Scud either. Felt for Maverick when Espargaro snr passed him, the kid is awesome.

Bizarrely, Ive fallen asleep during every moto2 race this year, it used to be the place for racing, but the moto3 races are immense.

Jumkie said:

Here is what's really funny. Lets apply Krop's logic today. Its easy to revise after the thought, but if we are to believe the rationale that we were all fooled ("tricked") by Marc's brilliance then today the RCV is STILL a dog. I'd like to know who here would like to take that position? Sure it's easy for Krops to say, look, see this and that to support his ridiculous assessment 12 months AFTER. But today, who is ready to say the RCV sucks? If it has declined because of Honda's incompetence, then it should still be .... right now. Has Honda re-begun another cycle of incompetence for Kropo to point to and Kesh to buy in about 12 months OR the next time the law of probability starts to catch up to Marc (whichever is sooner)?

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I really don't understand any of this preoccupation/obsession with the RCV being the 'best bike'. Since the end of the 990 era, throughout the dismal 800cc formula and now with the advent of the 1 litre bikes the balance of power has vacillated largely between Honda and Yamaha, also responding to changes in the rules and tyre provision, but overall (bar the disastrous Pedrocycle) these differences have been minute. I say this, perhaps because I wasn't privy to any of the assertions supposedly made by Krop, but ultimately I fail to see why all this even 'matters'. Last year, the RCV was a better package all round...this year it isn't, and given the circuits to come, the riders concerned, the variables in tyre preferences, it all makes for a fascinating dynamic.

Based upon my own observations and from the comments that I've either seen or heard by Marquez, he didn't like the 2015 bike, and voiced this immediately at the Valencia test last November. That simply, it doesn't work as well for him as the 2014 machine. As I've said before, and I may well be wrong, but the higher temperatures at the subsequent test at Sepang may have softened the package, both in terms of the greater flex in the chassis and the motor, but that is entirely my own speculation. COTA ridiculously favours the Honda, to a far greater extent than even Sachsenring IMO, and also likely mitigated the 'problems' earlier in the season that Marquez claimed were afflicting him.

Given that Marquez rides the front harder than anyone, the combination of engine character/chassis balance/electronics (call it what you will, delete as applicable...I don't really care) appears to me to have been transferring excessive load onto the front during corner entry - particularly once rear grip is compromised. And where the rear grip diminishes, instead of slewing/kicking sideways like last year - it instead tends to have been snapping back violently. At Mugello, he crashed out loading the front trying to match the pace late in the race, however at Qatar, Argentina and Catalunya, he made a series of unforced errors - and I've yet to see anyone dispute that. He's a racer and he's human...which is after all something that all bike racing enthusiasts tend to celebrate over their contemporary F1 counterparts.

Marc requested a return to the 2014 chassis and since then, at both Assen and Sachsenring the bike has looked settled, far smoother and it appears to be answering to his will - although oddly, since then his approach seems to draw more from the Lawson school of late than the Schwantz rodeo ride that we are accustomed to seeing.

In '06 Rossi reverted to the previous years chassis which revived his fortunes and in the same year, HRC did its best to sabotage Nicky's title bid with the inexorable raft of parts on the EVO machine, (although it's worth pointing out that the imposition of the dodgy clutch was a myth and his own preference). HRC, pride themselves on their progressive philosophy as we were all reminded by Colin and Hodgy during today's BT coverage...(yeah, so progressive that they've flung last years frame into the most expensive race bike on the planet). Riders constantly push for new parts ( be careful what you wish for Cal), and factories enforce testing and development, the sport is in continual flux... but when something works well, conversely those riders become acutely conservative by nature. I still believe that the Honda is a tricky machine to exploit to its maximum, excessively complex in comparison to the M1 and maybe, Marc nudged development in a direction that pushed those parameters beyond the reach of even his high risk riding style...much like Casey banished the Desmo far from the reach of mortal man.

Top riders can and do challenge the factories. The arrival of Rossi at Yamaha saw four bespoke designs by Yoda which he had carte blanche to choose from in favour of the machine that practically broke Barros's back and busted his balls the season before...not to mention later subverting an entire brand and race DNA at Ducati. Something as simple in comparison as substituting a chassis in favour of an earlier or familiar iteration is not unusual .. and it very often works. Remember Rainey in '93, bolting his factory motor into an old production version Roc frame? Doohan simply used to intimidate the HRC hierarchy and threaten engineers until they bent to his will. Marquez, meanwhile voiced similar concerns about the new bike. He's reverted to last years chassis and both watching the bike on track at both Assen and Sachsenring, and based upon his results it's working.

I'm glad.

Who gives a .... about what Krop said or journo's pandering to HRC...there are many that don't. Anyone with all but a cursory interest in this sport understands the inherent inequities if not the mechanics the machinations and mutability. Marquez was flawless this weekend - give the guy some Kudos, some credit, - he's got what he needs, be that psychologically or physically and he's delivered in response...mellow, and enjoy the second half of the season.

(EDIT: Unless you are a fan of either Pol Espagaro or Ducati)

SuperManatee said:

With all the attention being focused on the Hondas supposed woes, Ducatis woes are swept under the rug. Just about every person on the site including Mototainment journalist Kropo was singing its praises. It didn't take but a few races before normal order was restored.
The ducati is still the steaming pile of .... it always was.

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Kind of makes you wonder about Dorna's rush to end their concessions.

Regarding both Honda and Ducati, there is too much rushing to conclusions.

Honda have now found something that was easily available to them all the time -- last year's chassis, and it works. Great. It remains true that the development done for 2015 was a failure. So those who said the RCV wasn't performing well, were not wrong...
They have now restored their 2014 level, but Yamaha have caught up with that level, so they are now evenly matched. Don't be deceived by Honda's dominance at Sachsenring -- by Marquez' and Pedro's own admission, this is a favorable track for them.

Ducati started the season beyond expectations and for a few races were strong contenders, reaching the podium with relative ease (thanks also to the fact that Honda was in trouble). Now that Honda is back with two riders, they have to displace at least two out of four Jap factory bikes to put a foot on th podium -- so it's harder. At the same time the last two tracks were not the best for them -- they need long straights and fast bends to stretch their desmo legs.
At Indy the Ducatis will do better than at Assen or Sachs.

Yep, it proves Casay's development skills are up there with his sense of humour.

Yumkie said:

Riders' don't blame bikes, fan boys blame bikes!

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Again, Jum... you're always bemoaning about how the first four bikes finishing being Hondas and Yamahas.... because??? Because they're better bikes and have the best crews to do the set-up.


And on the other hand you contradict yourself by saying the winning has only to do with the rider. Make up your mind. Which is it?

Keshav said:

Again, Jum... you're always bemoaning about how the first four bikes finishing being Hondas and Yamahas.... because??? Because they're better bikes and have the best crews to do the set-up.


And on the other hand you contradict yourself by saying the winning has only to do with the rider. Make up your mind. Which is it?

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I expect the real reason that Honda and Yamaha are up in the 1st 4 places is because they throw more money at their bikes than the rest of the grid combined

Damn this place hasn't changed one bit. Well Jums posts seem to be shorter but thats about it. Whats crackin kesh?