How does Casey go about beating Rossi now...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 25 2008, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So now Stoner is a software engineer, I don't think so. The upgrade which helped Stoner gain an edge on the field immediately implies a drastic improvement in that area over their rivals. So the proof is in the pudding that Ducat's is better than anyone elses.


So that'd be enough proof for you would it? thats all you'd need to say "well there you go its better TC"? .......... get off the grass Thats pretty wacko !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 23 2008, 10:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he knew where he was going, but he braked just a tad too late. The thing that most impressed me is that on a track where very few know how to pass, he basically created his own passing points to win. Cool stuff.
He didn't create anything, he got a lesson from Edwards a few years back and used the same moves. Rossi is only the latest to make daring moves around that place. Rossi learned from Edwards, Edwards learned from Bostrom, Bostrom learned from Gobert and Gobert WAS God. Before Gobey, Rainey had that place figured out and prior to that predates me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 24 2008, 06:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, Melandri's use of TC in comparison to Stoner's use of TC is hardly the only relevant variable one can consider when assessing the difference in the classification.

Yeah, but with the TC turned up high, the engine cuts the ignition constantly on corner exit and slows the rider down. If you read reviews of the 1098R and its TC, many ex-racers-turned-journalists(like Cathcart) comment that the TC can be very intrusive if set on even medium settings; the engine constantly cuts the ignition, so you don't really go anywhere.

My point is that TC, if used heavily, significantly hinders forward progress.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 24 2008, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Alex Goebert (AMCN) rode Casey's 2007 bike and reported it had the TC on the absolute lowest setting.

He raced super bikes and couldn't get it to cut in.

You should never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Or evidence like the results of three other Ducatis. Yawn.

Casey's bike also sputters on the rev limiter. If marco is reading this he would be saying right now "hey, these things have a rev limiter".
I must have been mistaken, sorry guys. I just thought I had read that Stoner's set up is so that he uses more TC than Melandri or any of the other Ducatis. Sorry again.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Try reading.
I have had a reasonable degree of independent validation over my life of my capacity to read, interpret and remember the written word. I read these articles when they were released, hence my previous post, and I have read them again at your insistence without detecting any change since then. I obviously don't have much technical knowledge, but I am familiar with the theory and practice of logic. These articles all say ducati improved their electronics with no comment about the relativity of said electronics to those employed by other manufacturers. You can give an opinion based on your experiences riding other bikes and your observations (I presume you have not actually ridden an 800 motogp bike) that the ducati tc is better, and you may well be right, but it is an opinion. If as you say the performance of the ducati is largely related to the electronics, I could equally argue that the electronics on the ducati were sub-standard earlier in the year and required considerable improvement to reach the level of the yamaha and honda; I would not liken the ducati electronics(or any other aspect of the bike) to those of the kawasaki even for an exercise in logic .

Anyway, this is getting to be a fairly dry argument, and I continue to respect your right to your opinion.
EDIT
I do quite like your theory about how varying the pace of the bike mid-corner might put the ducati and stoner off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 24 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So that'd be enough proof for you would it? thats all you'd need to say "well there you go its better TC"? .......... get off the grass Thats pretty wacko !
Reading articles that quote riders opinions, yeah that's enough for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 24 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He didn't create anything, he got a lesson from Edwards a few years back and used the same moves.
I've never seen Edwards pass on the outside going from turn 3-4.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 24 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have had a reasonable degree of independent validation over my life of my capacity to read, interpret and remember the written word. I read these articles when they were released, hence my previous post, and I have read them again at your insistence without detecting any change since then. I obviously don't have much technical knowledge, but I am familiar with the theory and practice of logic. These articles all say ducati improved their electronics with no comment about the relativity of said electronics to those employed by other manufacturers. You can give an opinion based on your experiences riding other bikes and your observations (I presume you have not actually ridden an 800 motogp bike) that the ducati tc is better, and you may well be right, but it is an opinion. If as you say the performance of the ducati is largely related to the electronics, I could equally argue that the electronics on the ducati were sub-standard earlier in the year and required considerable improvement to reach the level of the yamaha and honda; I would not liken the ducati electronics(or any other aspect of the bike) to those of the kawasaki even for an exercise in logic .

Anyway, this is getting to be a fairly dry argument, and I continue to respect your right to your opinion.
A novel of a post that could have just as easily been summed up as "I hear ya man, but I don't agree with your assessment". So your telling me that if Casey himself said (which he did) that there was a great step forward in electronics and then started besting everyone by at least a half second at will in every practice, quali and race thereafter, that his software/TC/MAP ISN'T SUPERIOR TO HIS COMPETITORS..............LUDICROUS!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've never seen Edwards pass on the outside going from turn 3-4.
I don't recall seeing a pass on the entry to 4. I watched the race again last night and every pass I saw occurred at 5 or the corkscrew. Maybe I missed it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A novel of a post that could have just as easily been summed up as "I hear ya man, but I don't agree with your assessment". So your telling me that if Casey himself said (which he did) that there was a great step forward in electronics and then started besting everyone by at least a half second at will in every practice, quali and race thereafter, that his software/TC/MAP ISN'T SUPERIOR TO HIS COMPETITORS..............LUDICROUS!
Sure if your underlying assumption is that casey stoner is not an exceptionally fast rider, which yours seems to be and mine isn't. I thought we had agreed that the ducati continued to have a power advantage.

some of us may be deemed "mindless cheerleaders" for stoner, but some of you guys take the cake with your spin tactics.

hey, whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy when your boy wins. he is a god, right? if he loses, well it's so easy to discard it because that someone else had a software/hardware/tire advantage.

and doc., that your bike in your avatar?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 24 2008, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't recall seeing a pass on the entry to 4. I watched the race again last night and every pass I saw occurred at 5 or the corkscrew. Maybe I missed it?
Pretty sure it was 3-4, Hopkins was commenting and he was blown away by how ballsy it was. Here is a couple shots from motorsport.com. Let me know what you think, but either way I don't think he learned that one from good ol' CEII.

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/motogp/20...-us-bh-0244.jpg

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/motogp/20...-us-bh-0245.jpg


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 24 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure if your underlying assumption is that casey stoner is not an exceptionally fast rider, which yours seems to be and mine isn't. I thought we had agreed that the ducati continued to have a power advantage.
That has nothing to do with anything man. Stop creating scenarios that paint a happy picture around your opinion and just look realistically at the events. Stoner prior to Spain = up front/fast , Stoner post Spain = still up front/but way faster , Stoner credits substantial improvement to electronics , other racers struggle to complete , result = electronics package superior at the moment. DONE.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 24 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I must have been mistaken, sorry guys. I just thought I had read that Stoner's set up is so that he uses more TC than Melandri or any of the other Ducatis. Sorry again.
I have read this too, but only as a statement by marco melandri and fairly recently. I have not read the AMCN article by gobert where he says the bike has very little tc; you would think melandri might be better informed .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty sure it was 3-4, Hopkins was commenting and he was blown away by how ballsy it was. Here is a couple shots from motorsport.com. Let me know what you think, but either way I don't think he learned that one from good ol' CEII.

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/motogp/20...-us-bh-0244.jpg

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/motogp/20...-us-bh-0245.jpg
Looks like I'll have to rewatch as Rossi is on the outside exiting 4. Was Hopper commentating for the motogp.com crew? I just got the Eurosport coverage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty sure it was 3-4, Hopkins
That has nothing to do with anything man. Stop creating scenarios that paint a happy picture around your opinion and just look realistically at the events. Stoner prior to Spain = up front/fast , Stoner post Spain = still up front/but way faster , Stoner credits substantial improvement to electronics , other racers struggle to complete , result = electronics package superior at the moment. DONE.
I think the races between qatar and catalunya were due to a wrong turn in the bike's set up and the other 23 or so on a ducati are more reflective of his ability, you obviously think those races reflect a relatively brief period when electronics were unable to overcome his mediocrity as a rider. Both opinions, about which we are obviously not going to agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 24 2008, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty sure it was 3-4, Hopkins was commenting and he was blown away by how ballsy it was.


funny. another motogp rider calls it "ballsy". which can also be traslated to risky. but if stoner thinks some of the pases were a bit over the top, he's a whiner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 24 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny. another motogp rider calls it "ballsy". which can also be traslated to risky. but if stoner thinks some of the pases were a bit over the top, he's a whiner.

Dude..it's motorcycle "RACING"...not ballroom dancing....do you even ride?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 24 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny. another motogp rider calls it "ballsy". which can also be traslated to risky. but if stoner thinks some of the pases were a bit over the top, he's a whiner.

Dude..it's motorcycle "RACING"...not ballroom dancing....do you even ride?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 24 2008, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny. another motogp rider calls it "ballsy". which can also be traslated to risky. but if stoner thinks some of the pases were a bit over the top, he's a whiner.

Well I guess it could be translated that way, especially by someone completly cluless about what racing is about. Going on the outside is allmost allways risky but the risk is on the one passing not the being passed. In other words, stoner where not endagered, at least not compared to when riders dive on the inside. But I'm sure he made some big eyes when he saw Rossi comming around him and I suspect that move was among those "over the top" manouvers. It was not particular dangerous for Stoner but surly the most surprising.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 24 2008, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looks like I'll have to rewatch as Rossi is on the outside exiting 4. Was Hopper commentating for the motogp.com crew? I just got the Eurosport coverage.
Yeah John was commenting with the MotoGP crew. I watch it on the GP website, but I might rethink it next year, gettin ...... expensive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 24 2008, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the races between qatar and catalunya were due to a wrong turn in the bike's set up and the other 23 or so on a ducati are more reflective of his ability, you obviously think those races reflect a relatively brief period when electronics were unable to overcome his mediocrity as a rider. Both opinions, about which we are obviously not going to agree.
No man, I think you are right about having a setup not quite the best in those races, but the electronics in Spain is what really allowed him to pick up momentum and just literally decimate the competition these past few races until Laguna.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 24 2008, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny. another motogp rider calls it "ballsy". which can also be traslated to risky. but if stoner thinks some of the pases were a bit over the top, he's a whiner.
Yeah, but if you'd listened to Hopper during that discussion he was saying ballsy as in awesome, not crazy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 24 2008, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>With respect, you can't have it both ways. If rossi was in full control of his bike he wasn't entitled to take the line he did.
there was no way rossi was in control when he passed casey through the corkscrew. i think it was when they touched on the aproach to the corkscrew that led to that move rather than a counculated desision to pass there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 25 2008, 02:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But I'm sure he made some big eyes when he saw Rossi comming around him and I suspect that move was among those "over the top" manouvers. It was not particular dangerous for Stoner but surly the most surprising.

So you reckon it was an intentional move and wasn't missing the corner then going straight ahead into the gravel??

You are saying it was a line he planned and chose?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 24 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looks like I'll have to rewatch as Rossi is on the outside exiting 4. Was Hopper commentating for the motogp.com crew? I just got the Eurosport coverage.

I think that's courtesy of Eurosport. Unless there is a different showing elswere they kindly put that pass inside one of their comercial breaks. An unusual long one I might add.